Things will not change, until we stop obeying. We need to stop paying taxes. We need to stop applying for licenses. We need to stop complying. We need to stop fearing government. We need to start living like free people.
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
Spideynw:Things will not change, until we stop obeying.
I agree with you completely. However, it is easier to say you are an anarcho-capitalist than to live like an anarcho-capitalist.
Devote your energy to solutions.
liberty student:However, it is easier to say you are an anarcho-capitalist than to live like an anarcho-capitalist.
First of all, I prefer the term "free person" as opposed to "anarcho-capitalist". We are slaves. Whatever your political philosophy is, we all need to start living like non-slaves, or free people.
Second of all, it is not that it is easier, but that there is less risk. It is extremely easy to live like a free person, you just stop obeying the masters.
Lastly, how is non-compliance not a solution?
Spideynw:We need to stop paying taxes. We need to stop applying for licenses. We need to stop complying.
This will surely make you free.
scineram: Spideynw:We need to stop paying taxes. We need to stop applying for licenses. We need to stop complying. This will surely make you free.
I am pretty sure you are being sarcastic. But yes, if there are enough of us that stop obeying, it will make us free.
Spideynw:First of all, I prefer the term "free person" as opposed to "anarcho-capitalist".
I was using it as an example. There are plenty of people who will say they are for freedom, but won't act on it. Don't be fooled by the number of allies you may think you have. People will say all sorts of things when there is no cost to do so.
Spideynw:We are slaves.
I'm not a slave.
Spideynw:Whatever your political philosophy is, we all need to start living like non-slaves, or free people.
Some people may not want to. Some people are happy to be slaves in return for security, nationalism or redistribution.
Spideynw:Second of all, it is not that it is easier, but that there is less risk.
More semantics.
Spideynw:Lastly, how is non-compliance not a solution?
How will you travel if you are non-compliant? How will you gain access to medicine or medical technology if you are non-compliant. How will you communicate and use the internet if you are non-compliant? Not all of us want to be like Karl Hess. A forgotten martyr.
I'm not saying it isn't possible. I am saying that non-compliance is easier said than done. I have been trying to decouple from the state. It is a long and tricky process. Just refusing to pay taxes isn't enough. They still have the guns. They still have the consent of billions.
Fight battles you can win. Win enough battles and you can win the war. Take a long view.
liberty student:I'm not a slave.
If you obey, then yes you are.
liberty student: Spideynw:Whatever your political philosophy is, we all need to start living like non-slaves, or free people. Some people may not want to. Some people are happy to be slaves in return for security, nationalism or redistribution.
Well then they do not want change. I don't get your point. I am talking to people that actually want things to change.
liberty student: Spideynw:Second of all, it is not that it is easier, but that there is less risk. More semantics.
And important ones at that.
liberty student: Spideynw:Lastly, how is non-compliance not a solution? How will you travel if you are non-compliant?
How will you travel if you are non-compliant?
Move my legs. Drive my car.
liberty student:How will you gain access to medicine or medical technology if you are non-compliant.
Go to the hospital or doctor and pay for the services.
liberty student:How will you communicate and use the internet if you are non-compliant?
Type.
liberty student:Not all of us want to be like Karl Hess. A forgotten martyr.
I have no desire to be a martyr.
liberty student:Fight battles you can win. Win enough battles and you can win the war. Take a long view.
I have any where from 1 second to maybe 60 years left on this planet. I do not have time for "enough" battles.
Considering how little ancaps there are, I doubt that this strategy of civil disobedience will do much to promote our cause. In order to win, we must first win the youth and the academe. Spending time in prison doesn't seem like a way to accomplish that.
Political Atheists Blog
Spideynw:I have any where from 1 second to maybe 60 years left on this planet. I do not have time for "enough" battles.
Your opponents will always defeat you, because they do not operate with a high time preference. This was a failure during the Paul campaign on RPF. People wanted instant results. They refused to see all of the steps towards the goal.
Spideynw: liberty student:Not all of us want to be like Karl Hess. A forgotten martyr. I have no desire to be a martyr.
Then don't invite violence until you are capable of resisting it.
liberty student:Your opponents will always defeat you,
The problem is you are thinking of this as a "war". It is not. It is not a fight.
liberty student: Spideynw: liberty student:Not all of us want to be like Karl Hess. A forgotten martyr. I have no desire to be a martyr. Then don't invite violence until you are capable of resisting it.
Death is inevitable. Regardless, I think the FreeStateProject.org is the only real option. I don't know. I am thinking I may threaten my local city council that if they do not give me tax exempt status, that I will try to recruit my "neighbors" into being tax protesters, and not paying their taxes. I am thinking of going around, asking people why they pay taxes. Most will probably answer because the government threatens them if they do not. I would then ask if they would join me in not paying. If they say no, I will ask how many people would need to sign up for them to do it. If they agree to a hundred, then I just have to get a hundred home-owners to agree to that. I think a hundred would be plenty.
Spideynw:We need to stop paying taxes. We need to stop applying for licenses. We need to stop complying.We need to stop fearing government. We need to start living like free people.
If you were a politician competing for a position of e.g. president...
How do you think - would you win an election proclaiming such a policy?
;-)
Or let me put it in another way...
If you entered into a church / mosque / synagogue and proclaimedthat God is stupid, inefficient , greedy tyrant and therefore there should beno God at all, but we should live as free people - without trembling in fear...
What would you gain...?
;-(
I think the best we can do is what we do here on Mises.org forum and the like.
There is no climate for such a revolution as you proposed in any place on earth today.
At least - "civilized" place...
MariusAureus: Spideynw:We need to stop paying taxes. We need to stop applying for licenses. We need to stop complying. We need to stop fearing government. We need to start living like free people. If you were a politician competing for a position of e.g. president... How do you think - would you win an election proclaiming such a policy?
Spideynw:We need to stop paying taxes. We need to stop applying for licenses. We need to stop complying. We need to stop fearing government. We need to start living like free people.
We need to start living like free people.
Of course not. I am not trying to win an election though, so I could care less.
MariusAureus: Or let me put it in another way... If you entered into a church / mosque / synagogue and proclaimedthat God is stupid, inefficient , greedy tyrant and therefore there should beno God at all, but we should live as free people - without trembling in fear... What would you gain...?
What does that have to do with the price of rice in China? I never said anything about calling anything stupid, inefficient, or greedy.
Spideynw: [Death is inevitable. Regardless, I think the FreeStateProject.org is the only real option. I don't know. I am thinking I may threaten my local city council that if they do not give me tax exempt status, that I will try to recruit my "neighbors" into being tax protesters, and not paying their taxes. I am thinking of going around, asking people why they pay taxes. Most will probably answer because the government threatens them if they do not. I would then ask if they would join me in not paying. If they say no, I will ask how many people would need to sign up for them to do it. If they agree to a hundred, then I just have to get a hundred home-owners to agree to that. I think a hundred would be plenty.
[Death is inevitable. Regardless, I think the FreeStateProject.org is the only real option. I don't know. I am thinking I may threaten my local city council that if they do not give me tax exempt status, that I will try to recruit my "neighbors" into being tax protesters, and not paying their taxes. I am thinking of going around, asking people why they pay taxes. Most will probably answer because the government threatens them if they do not. I would then ask if they would join me in not paying. If they say no, I will ask how many people would need to sign up for them to do it. If they agree to a hundred, then I just have to get a hundred home-owners to agree to that. I think a hundred would be plenty.
Most people won't care. As long as they have sports on TV and a beer in hand, they could care less.
DarkCatalyst: Spideynw: [Death is inevitable. Regardless, I think the FreeStateProject.org is the only real option. I don't know. I am thinking I may threaten my local city council that if they do not give me tax exempt status, that I will try to recruit my "neighbors" into being tax protesters, and not paying their taxes. I am thinking of going around, asking people why they pay taxes. Most will probably answer because the government threatens them if they do not. I would then ask if they would join me in not paying. If they say no, I will ask how many people would need to sign up for them to do it. If they agree to a hundred, then I just have to get a hundred home-owners to agree to that. I think a hundred would be plenty. Most people won't care. As long as they have sports on TV and a beer in hand, they could care less.
Really? Have you tried it already?
The actions you take now may just snuff out an opportunity that arises in the future; nonetheless this act of brainstorming is much more productive than bickering over 9/11 conspiracy bullshit. Leave that to the statists at JREF to obsess over.
Spideynw:I never said anything about calling anything stupid, inefficient, or greedy.
So why do you propose to abandon government and all "benefits" that it bestows upon us so "generously"...?
Let me remind you:
"We need to stop paying taxes. We need to stop applying for licenses. We need to stop complying. We need to stop fearing government. We need to start living like free people."
Why???
Purely for the virtue of freedom?
Have you ever experienced slavery? Has your human dignity ever been smashed? Have you ever felt that pain?
Or...
Your proposal was just an intellectual playacting?
That would be sad...
:-(
I prefer to think that you know well the true virtue of freedom - let me believe in this...
MariusAureus:So why do you propose to abandon government and all "benefits" that it bestows upon us so "generously"...?
Why do you pay taxes?
MariusAureus: "We need to stop paying taxes. We need to stop applying for licenses. We need to stop complying. We need to stop fearing government. We need to start living like free people." Why??? ;-) Purely for the virtue of freedom?
Yes. I would rather be free than a slave.
MariusAureus:Have you ever experienced slavery?
Pretty much everyday.
MariusAureus:Has your human dignity ever been smashed? Have you ever felt that pain?
Government without consent of the governed is slavery. Or do you think "slaves" were always abused, talking about slaves in the classic sense?
Capital Pumper: The actions you take now may just snuff out an opportunity that arises in the future; nonetheless this act of brainstorming is much more productive than bickering over 9/11 conspiracy bullshit. Leave that to the statists at JREF to obsess over.
Exactly. We need to start taking action. If we can get a hundred people in a city to stop paying their property taxes, what is the city going to do? Incarcerate them? The governments are already bursting at the seems with trying to incarcerate poor people, let alone middle class people.
Spideynw:The problem is you are thinking of this as a "war". It is not. It is not a fight.
Not interested in semantic games. Good luck.
Spideynw,
My family actually tried this. We didn't pay taxes for years and even tried to sue the IRS. My dad almost went the road of Irwin Schiff (Bless his heart). The Gov stepped in and forced us to pay which ultimately lead to bankcrupcy of our home. A year after that my dad got Stage 4 colon cancer. I know I'm stretching it but I think the stress level was part of the reason for the cancer.
At any rate rather then little pockets of 'free people" as you call it revolting I think we could organize a better solution. I say revolting because from their point of view that is how they will look at it.
What if we consolidated into a single geographical region where we could practice our beleifs and have a real influence on the local government. Ultimately with enough pull we could eventually succeed from the system as we know it. We would have much more pull rather then being scattered like freckles across the country and probably generate much more press.
I could see your idea in motion if people got up, and told the Republicans to take a hike in relation to their hijacking of the tea parties.
filc:What if we consolidated into a single geographical region where we could practice our beleifs and have a real influence on the local government.
Oh, I agree. That is why I mentioned the freestateproject.org as maybe being the only real option. It is also why I mentioned getting a 100 or so of my fellow "neighbors" to stop paying property taxes. It is pretty easy for the government to take down an individual.
As an aside, I was talking to my next door neighbor yesterday. He put up one of those Don't Tread On Me flags. I mentioned to him we may need to stop paying taxes. He said he was just about to that point. Look at all the tax protesters at these tax rallies. Now, just imagine if instead of just asking the government to stop taxing them so much, they instead told the government they were going to stop paying. That would be millions of people that would stop paying. And that would make a difference. Begging the masters to be good will not. And I hope soon people will wake up and see that this is what needs to happen if they want real change.
Well it seems like that free state project has the right idea. The site has no political affiliations though. What if a bunch of minarchists move there and take over after we've established. Or maybe I just need to read up more on the project. Thanks for the link Spideynw.
Spideynw:Government without consent of the governed is slavery.
Look around... Look at the contemporary "temples" of democratic "freedom"!I used the example of "God" because people believe in government as in God himself!
How are you going to eradicate such a faith???
By proclaiming the need of abstaining from making sacrifices to their God???
They will stone you to death... You will be like a satanist to them...
I'd say that many centuries of silent, yet determined effort are necessary.
In reality there is no such thing as "government without consent of the governed"!Maybe it is not a joyful and enthusiastic consent, maybe it is only a coerced resignation.
Nonetheless...
Let's try to be as free as we can in the most attractive and successful manner we can!
I think this is the only way for the liberty of mankind...
filc:Well it seems like that free state project has the right idea. The site has no political affiliations though. What if a bunch of minarchists move there and take over after we've established.
Well it seems like that free state project has the right idea. The site has no political affiliations though. What if a bunch of minarchists move there and take over after we've established.
I would venture to say that the Free State Project is an exercise in minarchism. Not to say it isn't commendable, but if you think it's about seceding and divorcing New Hampshire from the rest of the United States, you'll be in for some sore disappointment.
Life and reality are neither logical nor illogical; they are simply given. But logic is the only tool available to man for the comprehension of both.—Ludwig von Mises
Life and reality are neither logical nor illogical; they are simply given. But logic is the only tool available to man for the comprehension of both.
filc: Well it seems like that free state project has the right idea. The site has no political affiliations though. What if a bunch of minarchists move there and take over after we've established. Or maybe I just need to read up more on the project. Thanks for the link Spideynw.
You should also check out freetalklive.com and freekeene.com as well then. A lot of voluntaryists are actually moving to Keene, NH, and committing civil disobedience. Today, one of them called the Keene Police and advised them that he was not showing up to jail tonight as ordered. They fined him $100 for digging on public property, and since he refused to pay, they told him he needs to go to jail for two days.
The "minarchists" can show up, and the more the better, because they are very close to being voluntaryists. If someone takes the libertarian philosophy to its ultimate conclusion, government without consent of the governed is unacceptable. Meaning I think most of them will become voluntaryists.
DD5:Governments always collapse. Our government will collapse also. The problem is that new ones keep propping up. The problem with the freestate project is that it is, from the start, promoting a government. What exactly is the point?
I think it is now morphing into the freeindividualproject myself. And that is my point.
MariusAureus:They will stone you to death... You will be like a satanist to them...
Unfounded fear-mongoring. The activists in Keene, NH are not being "stoned to death".
You have to be ready to fight, but you also have to be prepared to fight.
If you resist alone, they will come after you. Who will defend you then?
Without much warning, tens of thousands came down upon Washington this weekend on chartered buses. If you could mobilize this many people in your defense, then you would have freedom.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
Justin Spahr-Summers: filc: Well it seems like that free state project has the right idea. The site has no political affiliations though. What if a bunch of minarchists move there and take over after we've established. I would venture to say that the Free State Project is an exercise in minarchism. Not to say it isn't commendable, but if you think it's about seceding and divorcing New Hampshire from the rest of the United States, you'll be in for some sore disappointment.
filc: Well it seems like that free state project has the right idea. The site has no political affiliations though. What if a bunch of minarchists move there and take over after we've established.
The FSP is about flooding a community with alien immigrants in order to seize the power of government away from the locals. It is not going to earn a good reputation.
Stranger:The FSP is about flooding a community with alien immigrants in order to seize the power of government away from the locals. It is not going to earn a good reputation.
It's already experiencing this problem from a roundtable @ FSP earlier this year.
Spideynw: Really? Have you tried it already?
No, I haven't tried it. Consider the fact that most people have never even been exposed to these ideas. You expect them to be open to this? I'm speaking strictly from personal experience here. Over the past 1-1.5 years, in real life, I have met one minarchist....and that's it. People don't want to think of this stuff. Hell, I couldn't even convince anyone all through grad school.
if history taught us anything is that idealistic dreams never succeed.
Stranger: If you could mobilize this many people in your defense, then you would have freedom.
You don't get it. I don't need to have a defense of 10,000 people. I just need 100 families in a neighborhood willing to stop obeying. That's it.
garegin: if history taught us anything is that idealistic dreams never succeed.
And if history has taught us anything, it is that civil disobedience, with enough people, works.
No, it is about getting 20,000 like-minded people to move to a geographic area. People who are pro-free market. What people do once they get there is up to them. Some are going about it through politics (which will fail) and others are trying civil disobedience (which has already gotten results). Those practicing civil disobedience have already earned the right to film in the courtroom, after just a few months. Where else can you go in the country and film in the courtroom?
Is filming in the courtroom a fundamental freedom now?
Stranger, filming in the courtroom is a tiny capitulation in the grand scheme of things, but it could be a sort of camel's nose under the tent. It also gives a standard for comparison:
Spidey, about how many people did it take to get the right to film in a courtroom, in a jurisdictional area of what population size in the course of that few months? How many people do you think it would have taken to get a measure on the ballot for the right to film in a courtroom, spread the word and get it passed in that same jurisdiction? How long a period would that have taken, and with what total time investment per person?
If these questions can be answered, it seems the efficiency of ballot box vs. civil disobedience (per person, per unit time) can be quantified, at least for this particular case. The unquantifiable factor would be the risk involved. What were the risks to the disobeyers (the likely legal penalties and estimated odds of punishment), including the enforcement-thwarting effect of getting a group of size X to disobey simultaneously?
If we can work out, for example, that civil disobedience in this case was 20 times as efficient as normal political action per man hour, and that the risks were marginal, this could serve as an example for other movements in other areas. Then newly-emboldened groups of this kind could seek larger concessions, likely with much increased participation.
Why anarchy fails