Probably a bit of a scary title to this thread, given current connotations of the word muslim never mind "fundamentalist."
Nevertheless, I chanced to meet a self described fundamentalist muslim promoting his charity at a an islamic fair today(I went there for the free food). Our discussion turned economic and became quite passionate. He said he very much liked talking to me though, and seemed impressed with my knowledge of what I've learned of Economics so far(however benign that may actually be...).
He agreed wholeheartedly with me that money should be gold or silver, and not paper money(of course my true position is that money should be what the people decide to use as a medium of exchange in the absence of coercion; that usually happens to be gold or silver), but rejected interest as exploitative and immoral. I tried to explain to him about time preference, but I don't think i came across very convincing.
In any case, he asked for my email and said he very much wanted to keep in touch and would be open to reading any books I could recommend to him (in addition he recommended me to read the Quran... maybe I will after I get through all the other tomes I want to finish, though I doubt it will convince me any more than the Bible didn't).
What kind of books or materials do you think would provide the best introduction for this fellow? I'm tempted to definitely cite Lilburne's comics, though what do you think really hits home about time preference and interest? Admittedly, what worries me slightly is that I think he came to his position on gold just because the Quran says so rather than due to any economic reasoning, so this may be a fruitless waste of time, especially since I think he accepts the notion of Sharia law imposed on others(guess it's part and parcel of being a statist).
"When the King is far the people are happy." Chinese proverb
For Alexander Zinoviev and the free market there is a shared delight:
"Where there are problems there is life."
Seems to me that the best way to introduce him to austro-libertarian reasoning would be to recommend him a book/lecture/article on the gold standard.
By doing so you play it safe. You already know he agrees with the conclusion (that gold/silver should be money and not paper) so it will be easier for him to focus on the reasoning behind this conclusion.
Pick up a $12 copy of Economics in One Lesson and give it to him as a gift. He is more likely to read it and take it seriously in this way.
Current connotation of Muslim? Doesn't the word mean "slave to God", or something?
Unless you can "convert" the guy from fundamentalist Islam, then I don't think there's anything you can do short of finding some Islamic scholar to reinterpret the Koran so it says interest isn't evil. If the guy wants to remain true to his word about being fundamentalist, then he can't accept teachings from a secular source if they contradict his holy scriptures. Here's hoping, for his sake, that he's not as fundamentalist a "slave to God" as he claims.
Maybe he only stayed in contact with you to try to convert you? It's a proselytizing religion and you attended their fair.
Marko: Maybe he only stayed in contact with you to try to convert you? It's a proselytizing religion and you attended their fair.
I'm sure that might be the case, he's not the first person to try either. He even invited me to come over to his house for dinner; I think he liked our common ground on sound currency. To be fair, I'd be interested in seeing another austro-libertarian.
If he is Islamic, the religion forbids usury, so that may be a tough sell. You could however talk to him about the "Arab golden age", which had the most advanced and free first market economy known at the time. You could also bring up intellectuals such as Ibn Khaldun, or other philosophers from the period, who were kind of a "proto" free economist. They had the most advanced philosophy on economics at the time.
abskebabs: What kind of books or materials do you think would provide the best introduction for this fellow? I'm tempted to definitely cite Lilburne's comics, though what do you think really hits home about time preference and interest? Admittedly, what worries me slightly is that I think he came to his position on gold just because the Quran says so rather than due to any economic reasoning, so this may be a fruitless waste of time, especially since I think he accepts the notion of Sharia law imposed on others(guess it's part and parcel of being a statist).
The Quran doesn't tell anyone to use Gold, you're just assuming thats how he came to that position. No reason to be pessimistic just because he's religious.. Islamic society does have a history of using Gold and silver as money though. http://www.minaret.org/OLD/MONETARY.HTM
Theres a lot of misconceptions regarding Islam and the Quran- Muslims themselves have more misconceptions than anyone else.(Being Muslim and involved in the community myself). If this guy accepts the Quran- then he wouldn't want any type of "Sharia law" imposed on others because the Quran explicity bans forcing anything on anyone despite the actions of "Muslim" states around the world.
"[42:48] But if they turn aside, We have not sent you as a watcher over them; on you is only to deliver (the message)..."
" [ 88:21-88:22] So remind. You are only a reminder. You are not a dictator over them."
In regards to interest, it is generally accepted by the majority of Muslims that interest is prohibited, but as we all know, the majority deciding something doesn't mean its right. When looking at the Quran- you'll see that the only context in which usury is mentioned and prohibited when it is mentioning charity for the poor, so from my understanding of the concept of "Al-Riba", its only forbidden when there is a charity case. It isn't interest that is forbidden, but usury- akin to the types of loans the mafia would give out and then try to justify it as "business" where the collateral is usually the debtors life.
I don't know this man but it does seem like many muslims won't accept something until a "Scholar" says its true, and I don't know how far a non-muslim can go in convincing him that if he studies the Quran on his own, he'll find everything very compatible with AE and libertarianism as I have. But it wouldn't hurt to at least bring these questions up.
one "fundamentalist" muslim can be very different from another "fundamentalist" muslim, so as long as hes open to learn I think it'll be fine. Just don't push to change his beliefs in a day- people have a bit of a gut reaction when they're challenged to resist, but leaving the door open to learn is what works.
A muslim fundamentalist in teh US?! One sentence will convince him...
Come with me if you want to live!
IIRC, Islamic bankers have devised a variety of workarounds that follow the letter of the law but basically amount to a payment of interest - things like a purchase immediately followed by a sale with a different payment structure, "gratuities" given to investors, and so forth.
Zavoi:follow the letter of the law but basically amount to a payment of interest
Shows you how sincere some - if not most - religious people really are. I mean, if you're looking for loopholes, you're basically trying to evade the law. That doesn't say much about a person's faith if the law thus circumvented is supposed to be god-given.
Dondoolee:If he is Islamic, the religion forbids usury, so that may be a tough sell.
Just tell tell him Mohamed meant usury as fractional reserve banking, and lending your own money is perfectly fine.
Otherwise I would give him Democracy: the God that Failed first.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
Its not the same, but Walter Block did a paper on the Jewish Talmudic thing called Ona-ah
Ona’ah is a Talmudic prohibition against charging “excessive” prices, and
earning “exorbitant” profits[l]. Specifically, in order to comply with this law,
prices are to be at such a level that profits are no higher than 16 per cent[2].
http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/ona_ah.pdf
It might give you ideas?
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
Stranger: Dondoolee:If he is Islamic, the religion forbids usury, so that may be a tough sell. Just tell tell him Mohamed meant usury as fractional reserve banking, and lending your own money is perfectly fine. Otherwise I would give him Democracy: the God that Failed first.
Or you could give him something probably more relevant to his concerns:
http://www.amazon.com/Charlemagne-Muhammad-Capitalism-Geschichte-Islamischen/dp/3110192292
http://www.amazon.com/Merchants-Eurasian-1600-1750-Cambridge-Civilization/dp/0521525977/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267148643&sr=1-3
Or give him free links to some of the greatest intellectuals of all time, who happen to be an Islamic hero:
Ibn Khaldun: http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/Muqaddimah/ (Check out chapter 5 in particular)
I don't know if Ibn Sina has anything on economics, I'll check my archives to see if he does. I do know there are many other Middle Aged scholars who contributed to economic thought, I'll see if I can try to dig up a few more sources if you want.
The Islamic world of the Middle Ages seems to have a much better claim to the roots of capitalism and economics than Spain (which seems a bit like a manufactured idea). It would be useful and cool, I think, to talk to Muslims about Capitalism within the framework of their culture, with people they would be more ready to relate to.
Merlin: A muslim fundamentalist in teh US?! One sentence will convince him..
A muslim fundamentalist in teh US?! One sentence will convince him..
I live in the UK.
auctionguy10: The Quran doesn't tell anyone to use Gold, you're just assuming thats how he came to that position. No reason to be pessimistic just because he's religious.. Islamic society does have a history of using Gold and silver as money though. http://www.minaret.org/OLD/MONETARY.HTM Theres a lot of misconceptions regarding Islam and the Quran- Muslims themselves have more misconceptions than anyone else.(Being Muslim and involved in the community myself). If this guy accepts the Quran- then he wouldn't want any type of "Sharia law" imposed on others because the Quran explicity bans forcing anything on anyone despite the actions of "Muslim" states around the world. "[42:48] But if they turn aside, We have not sent you as a watcher over them; on you is only to deliver (the message)..." " [ 88:21-88:22] So remind. You are only a reminder. You are not a dictator over them." In regards to interest, it is generally accepted by the majority of Muslims that interest is prohibited, but as we all know, the majority deciding something doesn't mean its right. When looking at the Quran- you'll see that the only context in which usury is mentioned and prohibited when it is mentioning charity for the poor, so from my understanding of the concept of "Al-Riba", its only forbidden when there is a charity case.
In regards to interest, it is generally accepted by the majority of Muslims that interest is prohibited, but as we all know, the majority deciding something doesn't mean its right. When looking at the Quran- you'll see that the only context in which usury is mentioned and prohibited when it is mentioning charity for the poor, so from my understanding of the concept of "Al-Riba", its only forbidden when there is a charity case.
Thanks, I didn't know that. I'm beginning to think someone like yourself would be far better suited at engaging this man than I, given your knowledge of Islam. I must enquire: I have heard from crtics of Islam that the peaceful verses like the ones you have quoted are contradicted by the more violent and militaristic verses from the latter half of the Quran after the prohet's pilgrimage to Mecca. They claim that these verses abrogate the earlier verses, is any of this true?