http://www.salon.com/2013/05/03/a_march_on_washington_with_loaded_rifles/
Come ON Kokesh. Really? That's not the message we need to be sending.
Hes gonna get arrested and imprisoned.
Its about time lol.
“Since people are concerned that ‘X’ will not be provided, ‘X’ will naturally be provided by those who are concerned by its absence.""The sweetest of minds can harbor the harshest of men.”
http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.org
Lmao, what a bad idea.
That's not the message we you need to be sending.
FTFY
Clayton -
Adam Kokesh: Libertarian Super Genius Extraordinaire
What message should be sent? A registered letter to Obama thanking him for his service, but asking if he would politely leave, taking all his parasitic cohorts with him?
I think a message that doesn't make libertarians look like stupid, loud, dangerous, and whiny gun nuts would be preferable. The absolute best case scenario is that this does not help the libertarian movement one iota. It's a retarded idea and is the absolute nail in Kokesh's intellectual coffin in my book... Also another +10 douchery points have been accumulated
Getting himself arrested again. The majority of people will think he's insane for doing this. This achieves nothing, and predictably so, except making his own life worse, which means he doesn't understand individualism.
Don't follow this loudmouth attention seeker.
There is an intellectual pro gun freedom movement going on, and you can easily find it on Youtube, where gun experts are making their case for it and gaining hundreds of thousands of views often. Kokesh isn't part of that group with these kind of antics and he is making others look bad.
That's it? make youtube videos. My, yet another solution that miraculously doesn't require leaving the house.
I've got bad news for you. You aren't going to win any popularity contests regardles of what someone else does. I shouldn't follow an anarchist, who is actually doing something, but I should win the favor of a bunch of TV addicts and sports slobs with chicken grease on their fingers? Yeah, that makes sense. For individualism I should appease the collective.
Don't forget we will have to adjust for his score multiplier for each idiot who marches with him. Bonus points for injuries.
@Gotlucky
Can we please seriously calculate Kokesh's douchery multiplier over the course of this event?
@Habbababba
"I've got bad news for you. You aren't going to win any popularity contests regardles of what someone else does. I shouldn't follow an anarchist, who is actually doing something, but I should win the favor of a bunch of TV addicts and sports slobs with chicken grease on their fingers? Yeah, that makes sense. For individualism I should appease the collective."
You're making a fool out of yourself. Actually think about what this will accomplish, don't just say that because you're ann individualist doing something individualistic will make society more individualistic. Kokesh is leading a large group of people carrying firearms in an area where this is illegal (where isn't it in a city street?) in front of the f***ing whitehouse. Yeah, this is going to attract a shit ton of people to libertarianism because so many Americans would blame the government for retaliating in this situation. Use your brain.
We, we, we, we. I stumbled into the Zeitgeist forum again, dammit.
Oh and it's scary. A big man with a gun is doing what the government doesn't want him to. If you're going to attach yourself to someone, choose someone you argee with. Adam Kokesh didn't pick you as a disciple. Don't elect him your spokesman.
"Oh and it's scary. A big man with a gun is doing what the government doesn't want him to. If you're going to attach yourself to someone, choose someone you argee with. Adam Kokesh didn't pick you as a disciple. Don't elect him your spokesman."
I'm not sure if anyone here wants to be associated with Kokesh, but whether libertarians like it or not he is associated with them, both directly since he claims he is a "libertarian" and because regardless of this fact he is seen on the radical right. He is hurting himself and every other libertarian by doing what he is doing, and for that he is both immature, stupid, and not a "solution". I'm not sure if you understand what is going on or if you're just trying to show off how amazingly individualistic you are
I'd rather that he get arrested for shooting someone in self defense rather than getting arrested for merely violating a statist gun law.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
Been on the Ron Paul Forums for the past hour debating people who are actually excited for this, thinking of it as a way for DC politicians to think twice about what they are doing and implement "reforms." The notion that this would actually accomplish anything of lasting value is so absurd that it ought to be straight from the mind of Salvador Dali. Whatever there is to gain from this, it's microscopic.
I think this is hilarious.
The libtards I know paint sidewalks, beg people to sign petitions on raw milk, and huddle together trying to build each others resume's so that they can sell out as soon as they can. A.K.A. they are content with less than one percent of the voting public being on their side as painting sidewalks doesn't demonstrate the severity of the concerns; it says we "found a fingerpainting activity that we can do together!" What does Mayer say, "Is there anyone who ever remembers changing their mind from the paint on a sign? - It's not that we don't care. We just know that the fight ain't fair. So, we keep on waiting..."
I hope it doesn't get out of control, but at the same time...Henry David Thoreau, Malcolm X, John Brown, and Thomas Jefferson, etc. (Really great americans, Hannity) would be for this. But, my guess is that it doesn't even happen. he said he won't do it without ten thousand people. If people realize the stakes they won't do it; they're not ready for it. Alex Jones appears to have reserved support for it as well.
No wonder the Russians had him on their channel, haha!! =P
I understand where you guys are coming from, but to be honest I dont care one way or the other. if somebody is that set on speaking truth to power, or whatever, and doing this, ok, go ahead. its not going to make "us" look like idiots to anyone who doesnt already think so.
wait a minute, this is illegal? hes managed o.
"I'm not sure if anyone here wants to be associated with Kokesh, but whether libertarians like it or not he is associated with them, both directly since he claims he is a "libertarian" and because regardless of this fact he is seen on the radical right. He is hurting himself and every other libertarian by doing what he is doing, and for that he is both immature, stupid, and not a "solution". I'm not sure if you understand what is going on or if you're just trying to show off how amazingly individualistic you are"
Straw.
Hang on, I was under the auspices you were the Nietzsche, skinny jeans hipster? Regardless, statist, your arguments are weak. It's illegal. Don't do it because someone else might cause trouble. It makes "us" look bad. God bless America.
HabbaBabba:That's it? make youtube videos. My, yet another solution that miraculously doesn't require leaving the house.
HabbaBabba:I've got bad news for you. You aren't going to win any popularity contests regardles of what someone else does. I shouldn't follow an anarchist, who is actually doing something, but I should win the favor of a bunch of TV addicts and sports slobs with chicken grease on their fingers? Yeah, that makes sense. For individualism I should appease the collective.
Aristophanes:The libtards I know paint sidewalks, beg people to sign petitions on raw milk, and huddle together trying to build each others resume's so that they can sell out as soon as they can. A.K.A. they are content with less than one percent of the voting public being on their side as painting sidewalks doesn't demonstrate the severity of the concerns; it says we "found a fingerpainting activity that we can do together!" What does Mayer say, "Is there anyone who ever remembers changing their mind from the paint on a sign? - It's not that we don't care. We just know that the fight ain't fair. So, we keep on waiting..." I hope it doesn't get out of control, but at the same time...Henry David Thoreau, Malcolm X, John Brown, and Thomas Jefferson, etc. (Really great americans, Hannity) would be for this. But, my guess is that it doesn't even happen. he said he won't do it without ten thousand people. If people realize the stakes they won't do it; they're not ready for it. Alex Jones appears to have reserved support for it as well.
Wheylous: Reason 1: We appear to be rabid individualist survivalists Reason 2: We appear to be classless rednecks Reason 3: We appear to want violence over peace and discourse Reason 4: It would be really easy to delegitimize the movement if the government or opposition just snuck in ONE person to cause trouble Reason 5: Even if the govt and opponents are blameless, a criminal could take advantage of this.
Reason 1: We appear to be rabid individualist survivalists Reason 2: We appear to be classless rednecks Reason 3: We appear to want violence over peace and discourse Reason 4: It would be really easy to delegitimize the movement if the government or opposition just snuck in ONE person to cause trouble Reason 5: Even if the govt and opponents are blameless, a criminal could take advantage of this.
HabbaBabba:We, we, we, we. I stumbled into the Zeitgeist forum again, dammit.
Guy's got a point.
Neodoxy:He is hurting himself and every other libertarian by doing what he is doing, and for that he is both immature, stupid, and not a "solution". I'm not sure if you understand what is going on or if you're just trying to show off how amazingly individualistic you are
SkepticalMetal:Been on the Ron Paul Forums for the past hour debating people who are actually excited for this, thinking of it as a way for DC politicians to think twice about what they are doing and implement "reforms." The notion that this would actually accomplish anything of lasting value is so absurd that it ought to be straight from the mind of Salvador Dali. Whatever there is to gain from this, it's microscopic.
Since when is virtually any one demonstration supposed to be a "solution" that "accomplishes something of lasting value"? Is that the standard now? Everything anyone does in the name of liberty/anti-statism has to be a "solution" in and of itself, and accomplish something of "lasting value"?
What nonsense. The whole point of any demonstration is just that: demonstrate something. Demonstrate how many people agree with a certain point. Demonstrate that you aren't afraid. Demonstrate that you won't be quiet like some subservient sheep. Demonstrate to your would-be oppressor, as well as to those who are afraid, and who would otherwise not know people like you who are willing to stand up for what's right, exist. (Just ask Autolykos.)
This is not supposed to somehow magically dismantle government, or wake up the world to the idiocy of statism. (If that's what "true" acts in the name of liberty are supposed to do, then by god share the panacea that is the link to your YouTube channel.)
The point here is to simply flex the right to bear arms. Rights not exercised tend to atrophy and disappear. The point here is to see how many people would agree to risk a little exposure to really stick it to The Man in his own front yard. Either you find out 10,000 people are willing to literally march on Washington with guns on their backs, in direct defiance of legal statute, and you risk possibly being picked out of a crowd and processed...or you find out less than 10k are willing to do that, and you don't go.
I find it hilarious how an act of mass civil disobedience in the face of an unconstitutional mandate (in the nation's capital, no less) is seen as a poor reflection of those who advocate liberty...
And yet somehow everyone else who marched in the name of various freedoms (in that very area) in decades past is somehow a role model. I guess "times have changed". You don't fight the man by literally standing up to him any more. No no. This is the 21st century. Freedom is guarded in basements and living rooms. Rights are defended on the Internet.
I bet even Curran himself didn't realize that when he said "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty", he was talking about watching YouTube videos.
best topic for discussion ever.
Bringing loaded weapons is a recipe for disaster, especially since it only takes one guy to fire his to cause a serious problem between the marchers and the police. The police will already be tense in such a situation. Prudence is a virtue Kokesh does not seem to posess.
maybe thats the plan. the whole point of the last civil war was for the federales to get all the rebels grouped together so they could kill them. thats probably in the cards for this one too. after all, thats what governments do. they find people who say and do things they disapprove of, and they kill them or make them stop by threatening to kill them.
gotlucky:Bringing loaded weapons is a recipe for disaster,
You know what's a recipe for disaster? This.
I personally do not believe that one man who is associated with a movement can bring down the whole movement, or a philosophy. His actions are his, he is responsible for them. Kokesh does not represent all libertarians or anarcho-capitalists, nor does he represent all military men or atheists. The point is that it is a waste of time to worry about what others in the movement do.
To say that he is making libertarians looks bad is like the antithesis of libertarianism. We are individuals, our actions are not collective in failure. Our actions are collective when we choose to come together and have them be that way. If you don't want Kokesh to reprsent you, then don't believe that he represents you.
Statists who look at Kokesh and say "Those damn libertarians are stupid! Just like Kokesh!" don't matter, do they? Not to me. Statists will be statists. You can't expect them to understand individualism.
I support what he is doing, it's what he believes is right and I agree that the state is wrong. Pack heat, Kokesh!
I bet all those other Vietnam dissenters were sweating bullets about their image when the Baltimore Four (and the Catonsville Nine) were destroying draft files.
@JJ
I had a more substantive reply but I lost it. The long and the short is that you haven't dealt with the basic premise here which is that this will not be a positive action from a libertarian standpoint. Man seeks to fulfill his values. A value Kokesh has is to promote libertarianism. This will do the opposite, it will harm the movement and further delegitimize the pro-gun movement. This logic isn't hard to understand, therefore Kokesh is a dumbass. What a shock.
Those who marched for civil disobedience in the past are considered heroes exactly because what they did had a chance of working and it was effective at providing a lasting change. The way that they did this was exactly by remaining nonviolent and keeping the appearance of nonviolence. It is next to impossible to do this while carrying firearms.
Edit
"You know what's a recipe for disaster? This."
No. That's the way that libertarianism has thusfar advanced. Through education. That is what you have attempted to do here on this website and why practically every libertarian I have ever met is a libertarian. Because of something as simple as youtube videos and the peaceful spreading of ideas.
"Straw.
Hang on, I was under the auspices you were the Nietzsche, skinny jeans hipster? Regardless, statist, your arguments are weak. It's illegal. Don't do it because someone else might cause trouble. It makes "us" look bad. God bless America."
Everything you have written on this thread is without any sort of reasoning and marks you as an intellectual lightweight. But how about this as a thought experiment. How about you go and smoke weed in public until a cop comes and tries and stop you. When he does why don't you pull out an illegally purchased gun and kill the police officer? It's individualist, right? It's libertarian to defend your property, right? Therefore it can't be stupid to do something if its libertarian, individualistic, and how things should be, right? That's the same logic that you're using and I have yet to see you provide a substantive chain of reasoning for it.
So maybe this Nietzschean skinny jeans hipster (whatever the f*** that means on an austrian anarchist/libertarian forum) is wrong. Prove me wrong, I implore you.
Also, pulling out the statist card at a time like this, which is not only irrelevant but false, simply shows how much non-thought you are employing.
Nicholas James Evans: Statists who look at Kokesh and say "Those damn libertarians are stupid! Just like Kokesh!" don't matter, do they? Not to me. Statists will be statists. You can't expect them to understand individualism.
Were you once a statist?
I support what he is doing, it's what he believes is right and I agree that the state is wrong. Pack heat, Kokesh! You believe in invisible morality of 'right' and 'wrong' instead of thinking what actually works in favor or against desired outcomes. That is, imo, at this point the greatest problem of the liberty movement. Kokesh, Molyneux, and all the Rothbardians alike share this problem. VforVoluntary.com | Youtube.com/Nielsio | Reddit.com/r/austrian_economics | Post Points: 5
this will not be a positive action from a libertarian standpoint.
I'm curious did you read my reply on the Chomsky/Rothbard thing? Anarchism has many flavors. Picking one is what is absurd. If you don't feel affinity for the Greek anarchists who are currently throwing bottles at the cops and the members of the Golden Dawn (we had a Golden Dawn in the US too, it became the KKK) that are slowly taking Parliament, then that is your anarchism. If I was in Greece I'd be there with them placing buckets over the tear gas canisters and dragging beaten people from the streets so that they can fight another day. If I was in Spain I'd be spray painting over ATMs so people cannot get at their money and chaining closed the doors to banks. Discomfort is the disposition of dissent. I don't care if they are leftists in orientation, they are fighting fascism and communism.
The difference is, in the US, our dissenters can take political dissent to a different level. It is definitely more dangerous, but that is the game that the state plays with people. We can't even use the words fascism and communism in the US (if one expects to be taken seriously); "we're a democracy." but, why not? it is not as if the words are inaccurate...
The way that they did this was exactly by remaining nonviolent and keeping the appearance of nonviolence. It is next to impossible to do this while carrying firearms.
Have you heard of Malcolm X? Was his movement ineffective? or did his movement make the government fear a revolution? Did that fear not contribute to the state's capitulation?
How about you go and smoke weed in public until a cop comes and tries and stop you.
Okay. I've noticed the smell on me and my friends when I've gone into school (in high school) and the cops just made sarcastic comments about it. They never did anything. It never got violent.
Nietzsche might well support people doing what they want. he makes constant allusions to "war" and denigrates "slaves" and their morality. The free spirits are the ones who walk and leave a changing society in their footprints.
To say that he is making libertarians looks bad is like the antithesis of libertarianism.
It might not be how we think, but it certainly is how most people might think.
oh now what will people think of me because of you? I'd better bitch at you before they have a chance to have those thoughts, rather than risk having to explain the concept of the individual to them.
That's it? make youtube videos. My, yet another solution that miraculously doesn't require leaving the house. I've got bad news for you. You aren't going to win any popularity contests regardles of what someone else does. I shouldn't follow an anarchist, who is actually doing something, but I should win the favor of a bunch of TV addicts and sports slobs with chicken grease on their fingers? Yeah, that makes sense. For individualism I should appease the collective.
Nice way to completely miss the point. "We need to do something" is the same platitude used by politicians to sweep in all their stupid antics to begin with. The sum of libertarian politics is precisely "do nothing". As Thoreau said: "That government is best which governs least... arried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have." If it is true that the only way to get people to wake up is for a battalion of knuckleheads to attempt to march through Washington, DC (I can assure you, it will never happen), then men are not ready for freedom, anyway. So, let's get them ready.... go LvMI!
HabbaBabba: "A big man with a gun is doing what the government doesn't want him to."
Way to hit the nail on the head. This kind of publicity stunt is not actually getting to the root of the matter... it's walking right into their trap, which is to turn everything into a bureaucratic morass of "compliance" issues... and then make anyone who "just won't go along" look to be anti-social. And in Kokesh's case, it's probably true.
Neodoxy: @Gotlucky Can we please seriously calculate Kokesh's douchery multiplier over the course of this event?
Yes, we should. Should we do it in this thread, this forum, or at LibertyHQ?
Okay, I didn't bother to see what this content of this actual demonstration is besides what I can deduce from this thread. I am totally with the rhetoric of JJ and HabbaBabba.
What the libertarian movement is sorely lacking is some fucking balls, and that is so god damned obvious from this thread. I literally laughed out loud at Neilso's gun movement thing. Sure, education is very important. It is what lead us to this point. But education has diminishing returns. There are only so many people who have the capacity and patience to understand arguments and change their views.
The rest of the movement's momentum will need to be carried on by a vocal few who are willing to stand up for their rights simply because they posess those rights. The VAST majority of people in this country will NEVER become libertarians. I bet you as long as the US exists, this will absolutely be the case. So then, it us upon the few libertarians there are to band together, stand up for their rights, attract those who feel the same, but feel they lack the strength to stand up for their beleifs on their own. Then ultimately, we'll need to secede or some shit. But convincing people is only going to go so far, and I feel like the limit will be reached soon. We're battling against deeply ingrained ideology which is only so susceptible to reformation via education, especially when it relies heavily on theories.
So, on the point of whether I actually agree with the rally.. I'm not sure. But, I sure as hell am NOT concerned with how it affects the rest of the country's perception of the libertarian community. Not one iota. They already think we're the devil's angels, and the vast majority of them are going to keep thinking that whether we advance our petty youtube videos or not. Sure, something like a documentary would be great, and so would a demonstration that somehow included an educational motif, but education itself can only go so far.
To sum this up, I applaud anyone with the balls to stand up to the gov't. It is inspiring to me, it probably will inspire other libertarians, and it sets good precedent for the movement. It may not be perfect, but idgaf, because the rhetoric coming from the detractors is pathetic.
And Neilso, your attitude will sustain anarchism forever in irrelevance. You take shots at some of the best promoters of liberty, but what have you done? There is a right and wrong, and if we're ever going to make an impact on this world, it's about time we start acting like it, with conviction.
I realize this is a pretty sloppy post and I probably strawmanned people, but I'm pretty impassioned right now, and I'm going to hit enter nonetheless. ANARCHIST 4 LYFE.