Anarcho Capitalism and Anxiety

We all know by now that we do not live in an Ancap society. Everyone not only thinks its permissible for the state to attack innocent people, but they want to get in on the looting as well. So when we mises people walk around, everyone is basically in support of mass murder and slavery. Not only that, but they aren't even remotely open to liberty. We face social ostracism and ridicule for expressing ideas about peace and mutual human respect. Its insane.

So how do you all deal with it? I feel very vulnerable and afraid sometimes. Afraid that a group of liberal arts students will drown me out with laughter; that a bunch of ethnocentric republicans will visciously gang up on me in defense of their worldview according to Ronald Reagan. Even the people I hang out with don't listen to me. Its painful to be excluded from conversations about, say, the war. "We already know what you think and we're not interested. I want to hear what Fox news has to say".

I'm a good oral debater. I made it to 5A UIL State in LD debate in Texas. I have no doubt I could own 99.999% of people backwards and forwards in a structured round. But in real life I can't stop people from getting together in these circle-jerk groups where they agree to support eachother no matter how irrational or harmful their ideas are.

Its not that i regularly engage people in arguments, but that I'm walking around in a world that doesn't accept me and would stamp me out like a bug.

Anyway, how does everyone else deal with it?

 

 

Also, don't hang around with people whom you're getting 0 traction with. The point of life is to be free. What good is freedom from government when your friends suck?!

I've just become more increasingly aware of the risk of massive/hyper-inflation and how in the hell we are going to deal with the National debt! I worry about alot of things as well in terms of the war etc. But, even though our country is on the precipice of economic disaster, I still have much hope as we are experiencing an idealogical revolution of sorts. I just hope everything remains civil and peaceful here, that's all.

Nielsio:

Also, don't hang around with people whom you're getting 0 traction with.

We agree on transport phenomena and entropy balances. We only have any contact becuase of our classes.

Nielsio:

The point of life is to be free.

Ironically I could maximize my personal freedom by just agreeing with everyone else (whether its actually liberty oriented or not).

Nielsio:

What good is freedom from government when your friends suck?!

I was careful not to say they were my friends :P

LvMIenthusiast:

But, even though our country is on the precipice of economic disaster, I still have much hope as we are experiencing an idealogical revolution of sorts. I just hope everything remains civil and peaceful here, that's all.

Yes I do see some light too. But it doesn't change the fact that day to day everyone we are surrounded with supports aggression and slavery. And then the social ostracism part too. Its not that I want to befriend these people, its that I'm afraid of being shouted and laughed out of discourse. Maybe its an ego thing?

You're unfree in many ways.  One way that they haven't figured out how to control yet is how you think.  They also don't control how you set priorities or some of the major factors in how you live your life.  They don't control what you're afraid of.  If you want to be free, free yourself first from unrealistic expectations or absurd desires.  You are not free if your emotions are controlled by whether or not you can get a bunch of crazy people to think reasonably.  That's a form of unfreedom you are choosing yourself; choose something else instead.  Regardless of how you think, you will (on the margin) live in the same world.  Yes, it's true that thinking and writing can change the world - but arguing with people who have no desire to engage with you intellectually will not.  Stop doing that.  

Why do you want to be around statists?  Presumably, there are areas in which they think reasonably, and you enjoy discussing those things with them.  Or maybe you have cultural attachments to them, or you love them.  Do those things with them.  If you expect to convert everyone you meet to freedom, you will be unhappy.  Why choose to be unhappy?  I spend most of my time around statists, but don't discuss that particular area with them. I prefer to do more pleasant things with them, depending on the person.  You can enjoy being around people who support aggression if they are not presently aggressing and you don't discuss it.

So, anyway, you will on the margin live in the same world whether you are happy or sad.  So be happy.  Find whatever happiness is possible in this statist world - and I guarantee that there is some, and it doesn't involve pointless arguments.  Do something else with your time.  Fight unfreedom internally.  My present kick right now is finding things I'm afraid of and doing them - not because I need to get over that particular fear, but to train myself to get what I want.  I recently learned the pleasure of standing up for yourself if you are not being well-treated in a social or business situation, and I'm amazed at how often it works.  

In other words, you're all about freedom.  Free your mind from the compulsion to convert everyone to your interests.

Anyway, how does everyone else deal with it?

Mindfulness meditation ftw!

I disagree with the idea of not being around people your ideas don't get traction with, and the idea that such people "suck."  People are complex, and I'd much rather say simply don't talk to them about those ideas.  In any relationship, whether a friendship or a marriage, there are two people involved, and each has parts they bring into the relationship and parts they don't.  You want a variety of relationships, each involving different parts of yourself.  Why need every relationship be based on thoughts about economics?  I get along great with my office mates, and there are some that I don't talk to about politics.  We talk about books, and math, and teaching, and my romantic life, and their romantic lives, and food...

JAlanKatz:

They don't control what you're afraid of.

I'm afraid of being attacked and shunned for being a perfectly reasonable person. You're saying that I could choose not to be afraid/care? Maybe. A large part of me doesn't care, otherwise I wouldn't be able to be an anarcho capitalist. But you don't find it scary that there are these groups of people who fanatically ask for aggressive institutions to become more aggressive? Doesn't it make sense for African Americans and gays to fear neo-nazis, especially if they live in close proximity?

JAlanKatz:

Yes, it's true that thinking and writing can change the world - but arguing with people who have no desire to engage with you intellectually will not.  Stop doing that. 

I actually don't egage people in debate often. Maybe once every month or so. I don't make contact with strangers on the street, and its a dead end where those who I live around are concerned. This doesn't change the fact that I'm surrounded by aggressors.

JAlanKatz:

If you expect to convert everyone you meet to freedom, you will be unhappy.  Why choose to be unhappy?

I don't have unrealistic expectations. I expect people to think what they will. I doubt that anyone can be converted to the liberty movement via argumentation. Its something people have to find on their own. I see the purpose of argumentation as self defense. Not only literally, but there is a psychological domination/submission thing that goes on when the group exiles you, even if you never wanted to be a part of the group in the first place.

JAlanKatz:

I spend most of my time around statists, but don't discuss that particular area with them. I prefer to do more pleasant things with them, depending on the person.  You can enjoy being around people who support aggression if they are not presently aggressing and you don't discuss it.

I've had friendships like this. They are kind of tenuous, because even if you two have a game that you play together, if they ever find out you're an anarchist they lose a lot of respect for you. Even if the gaming continues I can tell they've lost a lot of respect for me. This kind of behavior reeks of patronization.

JAlanKatz:

Find whatever happiness is possible in this statist world - and I guarantee that there is some, and it doesn't involve pointless arguments.  Do something else with your time.  Fight unfreedom internally.

I do. I have a lot of games I really enjoy. New music, indi movies, comics. Etc. My interests are varied, abundant, and fruitful. Its just there's this hostile world out there that wants to destroy all that is good and won't hear anything to the contrary.

JAlanKatz:

I disagree with the idea of not being around people your ideas don't get traction with, and the idea that such people "suck."  People are complex, and I'd much rather say simply don't talk to them about those ideas.  In any relationship, whether a friendship or a marriage, there are two people involved, and each has parts they bring into the relationship and parts they don't.  You want a variety of relationships, each involving different parts of yourself.  Why need every relationship be based on thoughts about economics?  I get along great with my office mates, and there are some that I don't talk to about politics.  We talk about books, and math, and teaching, and my romantic life, and their romantic lives, and food...

 

And most of all, there is hope. Look at how rapidly information spreads these days. Look at the SSI with Patri Friedman and what Ron Paul is doing. Eventually, we are going to have to face the economic reality that everything we are doing is unsustainable, we will have to return to limited government. And for the AnCaps there will be the SSI, which hopefully will eventually take off sooner rather than later.

I take comfort in knowing that I'm right and that I have a better idea than 95% people of what's ahead. :)

Side note - I can't seem to get the quote feature to work recently.

Of course it is scary that people are so ill-informed as to fanatically ask for government programs.  It is a bad thing, and will leave us impoverished.  It will do so regardless of how you live your day to day life.  You absolutely should associate with libertarians too, and write about liberty - and remember that those who shunned you will eventually show up at your door saying "what were you saying about how to defend yourself, now that the government has failed?"  It does not make sense for AAs and gays to fear neo-nazis; it makes sense for them to do something about it, such as locking their doors, or maybe moving.  On the other hand, liberal arts majors are not neo-nazis.  They do not burn crosses, they just make statements they don't fully understand.  The point is, they aren't necessarily bad people, and almost without exception, would never do the things they argue for. 

I don't see the self-defense component in argumentation.  Even if you win the late-night bull session discussion, your taxes will still be due.  You would have been better off to spend that time figuring out how to make income off the books.  In regards to the exile/social domination thing, that's simply a function of insisting on your views being a topic of discussion.  You don't have to be exiled.

I don't think what I'm describing reeks of patronization at all.  I've been dating this woman for 4 months now.  She knows that I am an anarchist, and I know that she is a good liberal (by which I mean the more progressive type, not the corporate Democrat type.)  I also know that she's a very kind, gentle person who wouldn't hurt a fly; she just doesn't see the consequences of her beliefs fully.  She knows that I'm giving and generous, and probably thinks that I don't see the consequences of my beliefs fully. Of course, I think she's wrong - that's the nature of having beliefs.  I also think she's an incredible person to spend time around, and that, so far as I know, she'd make a great life partner.  We agree about most of the things that happen every day - how to run a house, how to give to charity, and so on.  We disagree on politics.  Which of us is patronizing the other?

There is a group of hostile people who want to destroy much that is good.  Maybe 1% of them think of it that way.  The rest wouldn't hurt you, and just have some mistaken ideas.  They also have no power to carry them out.  Is this a reason to dislike them?  Now, does this obligate you to turn over them even the things they aren't trying to destroy?  

JAlanKatz has some great posts in this thread. I also want to point out that one of the greatest things you can ever do is engage in market transactions. Even regulated ones. Every coffee or bag of chips or tank of gas you buy is proof that the market works, in spite of all that government does to prevent it.

So I go about my day, I pick my fights carefully and wisely and try to always be respectful, and above all, let the market speak for itself.

A great example: I work with a self-proclaimed socialist, and we've talked about economics and politics a couple times, but we get along fine when we're discussing work. The great irony in all of it (that I keep to myself) is that he loves our capitalistic line of work.

JAlanKatz:

It does not make sense for AAs and gays to fear neo-nazis; it makes sense for them to do something about it, such as locking their doors, or maybe moving.

And at least they have self defense against these hate groups. If I take protective action against the state, there is still the constant fear of getting double-burned if they find out. I'm sure there are some creative ways to fly under the radar, but its still something I find terrifying.

JAlanKatz:

On the other hand, liberal arts majors are not neo-nazis.  They do not burn crosses, they just make statements they don't fully understand.  The point is, they aren't necessarily bad people, and almost without exception, would never do the things they argue for. 

Yes, I try to remind myself of this. But people are doublethinking. They maintain defend one standard of behavior for themselves, and another for the state. You are right that they are peaceful day to day, but what would they do if they came into office? Do you think they would recognize that taxation=theft and then abolish the whole institution? Regardless, they enable the other class of people who are actually violent.

JAlanKatz:

I don't see the self-defense component in argumentation.  Even if you win the late-night bull session discussion, your taxes will still be due.  You would have been better off to spend that time figuring out how to make income off the books.

Yes this would be more productive. I don't actually argue with people frequently though. But I really feel the need to have the arguments handy. Even if i'll never engage the person in a discussion, I need to know that I could defend myself against their claims. I feel like I would be trampled, and left without any rights, if I can't tell someone why they're wrong about the state.

JAlanKatz:

I don't think what I'm describing reeks of patronization at all.

Maybe its just the douchebags around me then.

JAlanKatz:

I've been dating this woman for 4 months now.  She knows that I am an anarchist, and I know that she is a good liberal (by which I mean the more progressive type, not the corporate Democrat type.)  I also know that she's a very kind, gentle person who wouldn't hurt a fly; she just doesn't see the consequences of her beliefs fully.  She knows that I'm giving and generous, and probably thinks that I don't see the consequences of my beliefs fully. Of course, I think she's wrong - that's the nature of having beliefs.  I also think she's an incredible person to spend time around, and that, so far as I know, she'd make a great life partner.  We agree about most of the things that happen every day - how to run a house, how to give to charity, and so on.  We disagree on politics.  Which of us is patronizing the other?

Neither. If you can really respect eachother, then that's great. Its just rare.

JAlanKatz:

They also have no power to carry them out.

The power of the state rests on its perceived legitimacy.

JAlanKatz:

Side note - I can't seem to get the quote feature to work recently.

Yeah the button doesn't work. Its laborious, but if you type [ quote user="XX" ] without the spaces before and after the ['s it should work.

Anyway, how does everyone else deal with it?

For being an anarchist in general, I draw a lot of inspiration from the abolitionist movement. Our cause is very similar to theirs.

I'm not an anarcho capitalist, but I did train self defense martial arts for a while because I am naturally an anxious person and I found a tremendous sense of peace by learning how to defend myself physically.  Find power, train yourself, learn to pursue the things you can change and stop worrying about the things you can't change.  Find a way to accept death.  

Just a question here, what do you do in terms of defending yourself if you are a student? I mean, it's not like I can pick up my bags and move...

It sounds to me like you just need to learn to be more assertive.

krazy kaju:

It sounds to me like you just need to learn to be more assertive.

I'm very assertive and confident. The problem is that I am in constant conflict with everyone. I view them either as potential attackers, or enablers. My anxiety is compounded by the fact that they get together in groups and decide these things.

That's one of the hallmarks of libertarians. We can't stop arguing with one another. We have a lot of similarities but we don't find peace in patting eachother on the back.

Sometimes I feel like I'm in the same boat.  Some of my friends don't really have an open view on politics.  My girlfriend doesn't like to get into it and doesn't want me to because she knows I won't stop, and her friends are a bunch of New-Age feminist who put the blame vaguely on "corporations".  I'm the only person I know of that's opened up an economics book.  It can be rather tiresome when you feel that you have to defend positions that we see as right compared to what they (generally everyone else) believe.  There's been a few times she'll have people over and they start to debate and end up talking about something that touchs economics (or someone flat out says capitalism in a negative context or how bad money is).  I've come to the point of just not getting into it.  Even my brother, who's more of a conservative in some aspects than a libertarian (more of a minarchist than anarchist), sometimes doesn't want to get into certain areas.  Once I start talking about privatizing the courts and IP it's like I'm the town drunk.

Because of my naturally paranoid nature, butressed by some physical and sexual assault experiences in the past, I pretty much won't go anywhere without a gun. I keep several guns in my home. Even so, I don't go out much except to work. I am something of an armadillo.

If you're half as antagonizing in real life as you are on this forum, then there's no wonder you have nowhere to go.

If you're half as antagonizing in real life as you are on this forum, then there's no wonder you have nowhere to go.

 

Damn

If you're half as antagonizing in real life as you are on this forum, then there's no wonder you have nowhere to go.

Yeah, because the rest of the world is obsessed with proving that TEH GOVMENT IS EVIL.

Obviously we would all be traumatized if we were mugged on a regular basis. But we are. Taxes are way worse than losing a couple of hundred bucks getting mugged.

So if you would develop an anxiety disorder from repeated mugging, how can you logically argue that we ought not to have anxiety disorders caused by taxation / statist support?

When I say you're antagonizing I don't mean our differences of opinion, I refer to your mode of discourse. Shit like calling vast numbers of people retards or clowns on every occasion is best left on 4chan.

Anxiety is often caused by uncertainty about the future.  Or I should say the relative uncertainty about the future except for the certainty of death.  And, interestingly enough, taxes.  All one ever knows is that they will die and that it's very likely they will get taxed before that happens and so it is natural to feel anxiety. 

So if you would develop an anxiety disorder from repeated mugging, how can you logically argue that we ought not to have anxiety disorders caused by taxation / statist support?

 

Because muggings are traumatic while taxation is not (at least in my case). I've grown accustomed to being stolen from by the government. I know what they will do if I don't obey them and I know the steps that I need to take in order to obey them. Muggings, on the other hand, are not that familiar.

calling vast numbers of people retards or clowns on every occasion is

A realistic assessment of the human race.

To be honest, I'm a skittish kitten in real life, with a bit of Victorianism; although I swear like a sailor around my friends. But that's because offending real people has more serious consequences and, also, most real people don't try to defend 'natural law' in my presence.

bloomj31:

Anxiety is often caused by uncertainty about the future.  Or I should say the relative uncertainty about the future except for the certainty of death.  And, interestingly enough, taxes.  All one ever knows is that they will die and that it's very likely they will get taxed before that happens and so it is natural to feel anxiety. 

 

Similarly, I also believe it has to do with the fact that most Austro-Libertarians or minarchists, see what is coming a mile away. I don't think it's necessarily calming per se, when you have college students screaming about the fact that we need higher taxes to fund our failing public education system, when the welfare state is broke and in absolute shambles in this country.

I just pray to G** that we will get our house in order before it's too late.

Like I said, I'm a student, so what the hell should I do? It's not like I can move or anything...

I take comfort in knowing that I'm right and that I have a better idea than 95% people of what's ahead. :)

I agree with this guy. I used to be interested in debate but now I'm far more interested in self-preservation. Luckily I have a girlfriend who listens to everything I harp on and agrees with most of it. When people start spouting statist quips, I just listen patiently and if anything will only recommend that they look into economics.

@LvMIenthusiast, I dunno, you can just protect yourself, both physically and financially if you ask me.  

Also, even though it's not particularly hard to see what's coming, it's hard to tell exactly when it will happen and what exactly will happen.  Plenty to be nervous about.

Josh:

Because muggings are traumatic while taxation is not (at least in my case). I've grown accustomed to being stolen from by the government. I know what they will do if I don't obey them and I know the steps that I need to take in order to obey them. Muggings, on the other hand, are not that familiar.

Right I'm sure we would all by much more traumatized if we were beaten and robbed for the first time tomorrow. I agree that the regularity and apparent tranquility of the current mugging-system allows it to fly under the radar. I obviously wasn't outraged when I first heard about taxation. But as I became more aware of the reality of modern society, it began to weigh on me (not just taxation, but this is a convenient reference).

It would also be quite different if everyone around me weren't *arguing* for my continued mugging. We all have varying amounts of social support, but at the end of the day, the vast majority of people side with the aggressors, and might even participate in aggression themselves if put in political positions. Is it so unreasonable to fear the mob?

bloomj31:

@LvMIenthusiast, I dunno, you can just protect yourself, both physically and financially if you ask me.  

Also, even though it's not particularly hard to see what's coming, it's hard to tell exactly when it will happen and what exactly will happen.  Plenty to be nervous about.

 

Yeah, definitely no shortages of what to be nervous about in the case of a complete economic collapse.

Liberté:

A realistic assessment of the human race.

To be honest, I'm a skittish kitten in real life, with a bit of Victorianism; although I swear like a sailor around my friends. But that's because offending real people has more serious consequences and, also, most real people don't try to defend 'natural law' in my presence.

I lol'ed.  

So how do you all deal with it?

 

I listen to music. A lot. It's only "healthy" escape from this mad reality that I know.

Snowflake:

 

Remember that winning people over to liberty is a marathon, not a sprint.  No matter how clear and consistent your arguments are, no matter how logically sound they are, and no matter how rhetorically persuasive, people are not going to accept any kind of holistic philosophy of liberty.  It's too big of a leap for people, who have lived their entire lives being taught that the state is moral and every bit a part of nature as the wind, rain, or snow.  Our advantage, however, is that whether talking to a left-statist or right-statist, there is always some common ground we can establish with people.  If you're talking to a lefty, bring up topics such as civil liberties, the war on drugs, or foreign policy.  To a neocon, talk about free markets, taxes, or regulation.  If you proceed from the principle of self-ownership and non-aggression, then there's a good chance you're going to give them a perspective which justifies their position in a way in which they are unfamiliar, allowing you to develop rapport.  If these people are truly your friends, then they will, given time, respect your opinion.

 

However, I understand the nature of your complaint.  I associate with some people who are deathly afraid to allow me even to speak half a sentence when they know I disagree - and I am very humble in conversation (mostly) and don't push my views on anyone.  When you run into a group like this, remember the phrase "don't cast your pearls before swine."  Move onto someone who is reasonable, wants to have a two-way discussion and learn, but also take the approach that you can learn from them (which you can, understanding how statists view the world is important for us).  I have been successful in moving a small group of people towards libertarianism because I was able to continually find points which we could agree on.  Given time and patience, open-minded people will come around.  Stay away from know-it-alls or people who freak out when someone disagrees with them - there is no hope for these people. 

It took myself more than five years to become a full-fledged libertarian, and I have to constantly remind myself of that.  (Ironically, that's a good way to develop credibility with people.  If you can tell them you were once a neo-con or lefty, your libertarianism is revealed as the open-mindedness it really is.)

I watch a lot of Shin Chan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuywoC3H_AM&feature=channel

'Not the number 3!! It's lead content is dangerously high!'

Maybe see "The Art of fighting Without Fighting"?: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw8HvKnEsto&feature=related

Regards, onebornfree.

move to New Hampshire