So I'm on the Thom Hartmann forum, and I someone just made the most amazingly statist remark - I blew my top. The main thread is here, and I jump in here.
I've battled over there before, saying that liberty means being able to be left alone to do what you might, as long as you don't hurt anyone. I bring up the example of federal low flush toilet mandates - What possible justification could there be for the federal government to dictate how many gallons I choose to flush with.
His response - By wasting water, I'm hurting others. So his thuggish behavior is "self-defense". I kid you not.
I am angry enough to spit, and I admit I lost my cool. I was this close to calling him a Nazi, but even stopping short of that I must admit that I ended up simply insulting him.
Please, I'm begging any cool-headed, fact-filled Mises denizens to go over there an kick some butt...
In a market economy, one must first produce, and add this production to the pool of available goods/services, before one gets paid. When one gets paid, one is entitled to withdraw from this pool a value - as viewed by the market - equal to one's contribution to it. Tell your buddies that in a market, where water is paid for, one has contributed to the market before one uses the water, so there is no problem about hurting other people. Indeed, if demand for water goes up, the price will go up and convince more people to start producing more water.
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under - Mencken
I've battled over there before, saying that liberty means being able to be left alone to do what you might, as long as you don't hurt anyone. I bring up the example of federal low flush toilet mandates - What possible justification could there be for the federal government to dictate how many gallons I choose to flush with. His response - By wasting water, I'm hurting others. So his thuggish behavior is "self-defense". I kid you not.
Hi Stevo,
This is why focusing on economic science is so important. This person needs to be taught how the market process economizes scarce resources. Appeals to "sweet liberty" and against "thuggishness" just won't cut it.
I find that with the low flush toilets I have to flush TWICE for the full necessary effect, defeating the whole purpose.
Up. Btw, its really lame they restrict how much water we can have in our toilet tanks. Anyone who argues against it is like, "wow thats not enough water" and everyone else is like "well maybe for YOU but its enough for me. What do you eat?!" *cough*
From my perspective, everything is made for tiny people. I'm a 6 feet 7 inch tall giant, and I take giant craps. I need a car with legroom. I need a house with doorways that are preferably an inch above my head. Everything is made for little people. I hate having to flush twice, nevermind 4 or 5 times. Maybe the handicapper general can have me fixed.
Now I'm pissed, too.
You need to weigh the benefits of arguing there vs the costs. Yes, 3rd parties -may- benefit from seeing your arguments but then you're better off just linking them to Mises articles anyway. The thing with such venues is you're unlikely to change anyone's mind, particularly individuals with such neanderthalish, trollish attitudes as these who refuse to debate honestly and resort to barrages of personal attacks (with little supplementary argument.)
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
Twice? I have to flush 4 times. :D Well, usually it's twice, but once in a while...
(english is not my native language, sorry for grammar.)
what the hell guys.. just get one of the vacuum toilets.. uses very little water and gets turd of any size down no problem
"From my perspective, everything is made for tiny people. I'm a 6 feet 7 inch tall giant, and I take giant craps. I need a car with legroom. I need a house with doorways that are preferably an inch above my head. Everything is made for little people. I hate having to flush twice, nevermind 4 or 5 times. Maybe the handicapper general can have me fixed." - Giant_Joe
Same here. 6'4" and I feel everything seems to be manufactured for anorexic midgets, including the toilets, the showers, and the cars.
"I've battled over there before,..."
Why are you wasting your precious time? It's far more productive to work on people who don't rant about the "waste" of the free market but simply need some guidance in how to become more consistent and coherent in their already sympathetic view towards freedom.
We don't need a majority support, for freedom won't come by majority vote. We just need to enlarge our intellectual base.
I say pick your targets and goals more carefully.
^^What DD5 said.
I don't think people who think capitalism is wasteful or prejudicial against the poor are a waste of time. I find that I'm particularly effective with such, usually left-leaning people. Even if you don't turn them outright libertarian, it is a HUGE accomplishment simply to soften their anti-market resolve. For example, my landlady is a Berkeley progressive. After several debates with me, she now professes to have a lot more respect for libertarianism and pro-market arguments, although she is not entirely convinced. A progressive base populated by people with nuanced views about the market, will be a lot less destructive in the voting booth and in the realm of public opinion, than one populated by people who have never met a reasonable, educated libertarian in their life.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. And thanks Snowflake for posting over there - you make good points. As far as wasting my time, you guys are right. I've actually found that just by talking with friends at work and in the neighborhood, I get them to think much more about freedom. With scarce resources, my time is much better spent spreading the word among the "fence sitters" than among those who are dead set statists.
Im continuing to debate him. Will stop soon. It would make me feel like I wasted less time if you were reading it stevo :P
I am reading and enjoying. You are able to explain the the theory clearly, yet he seems unable to comprehend.
It really is amazing to see - it's like we and them are really in two completely different worlds.
I am amazed at the fact that he either misunderstands or is deliberately misrepresenting my position, but he continues to clailm that I wish to impose my will on other through violence. It's maddening, because that is exactly the opposite of what I have said.
(I'm sure you've already figured this out, but I'm 'rbs' over there.)
I'm writing now for practice and for any lurkers...
I'm impressed either of you stuck around for as long as you did. It makes it especially difficult when he continually dismisses your arguments and confuses your position with State Corporatism and other failed interventions.
The guy is a moron, and he apparently has never killed a plant to sustain his life either. Any killing of animals/plants to sustain your life is wrong and an evil self-interest in according to him. Curious, I wonder if he's ever used anti-biotics or washes his hands with soap. Wouldn't want to kill any bacteria now would we.
Sticking it out for one more reply... read his post. He thinks the chinese follow confuscianism to this day, and that societies have collapsed because they had too much free market in them.
@ Stevo_dubc and Sieben,
I read that whole link from where you started Stevo and could not believe that guy. I can see why you got frustrated. I am an armchair economists who has only begun my studies on the subject so my knowledge is not as extensive as either of yours but even i could see the flaws in his arguement.. He refused so many times to respond to a point made that it was becoming simply egregious and in some ways hilarious. I enjoyed it though, and he got thoroughly whipped.
"It is easy to be conspicuously 'compassionate' if others are being forced to pay the cost." - Murray N. Rothbard.