If keynesianism is so great, how come corporations never implement internally keynesian policies? For example, a corporation could run up deficits by buying a multi-million dollar cafeteria, raising its employee's wages, and forcing them to eat there. This would nearly completely internalize all the "economics", so if there are any benefits, they should materialize. Of course they will not and everybody knows this.
I'd argue that Keynes is more "macro" whereas corporate econ is more "micro".
I imagine Paul Krugman would say it's because the corporation isn't in a liquidity trap so the broken window fallacy would apply.
ViennaSausage:I'd argue that Keynes is more "macro" whereas corporate econ is more "micro".
Evilsceptic:I imagine Paul Krugman would say it's because the corporation isn't in a liquidity trap so the broken window fallacy would apply.
Sieben:These corporations have larger economies than many countries, particularly many countries during the great depression.
Perhaps even more reason not to have the macro/micro distinction.
Sieben: Evilsceptic:I imagine Paul Krugman would say it's because the corporation isn't in a liquidity trap so the broken window fallacy would apply. So where is the liquidity trap and why can it not be "incorporated"?
So where is the liquidity trap and why can it not be "incorporated"?
Well to have a liquidity trap in a corporation you would need to have a loan market inside the corparation.
I was going to bring up the micro/macro distinction, but what is the Keynesian argument for it working on the macro scale but not the micro scale?
The macro-economy is modeled as a closed system whereas an individual firm is modeled as an open one that interacts with other agents. Therefore the dynamics of it are different and require different analyses.
Anyway, Keynesianism isn't about runing up deficits willy nilly. The idea behind it is to soak up deficiencies in aggregate demand in times of recession (running deficits), and cool down the economy in boom-times (running a surplus). Most governments recently around the world have just been doing the former.
BTW, I'm not expert Keynesian so this is my half-informed understanding of it all.
consumertariat:The macro-economy is modeled as a closed system whereas an individual firm is modeled as an open one that interacts with other agents. Therefore the dynamics of it are different and require different analyses.
consumertariat:Anyway, Keynesianism isn't about runing up deficits willy nilly. The idea behind it is to soak up deficiencies in aggregate demand in times of recession (running deficits), and cool down the economy in boom-times (running a surplus). Most governments recently around the world have just been doing the former.
Aside from the macro-economy obviously being open (lol), the implied stipulation of the OP is that corporations have THE OPTION to be closed. So the example was that they ran up their deficit spending it on something that would stay within the company and its workers.
What do you mean when you use the word 'closed'?
What do you think I mean when I use the term?
In what way do firms have the option to be closed?
Still. If corporate sales begin to plummit, it should be obvious that the solution is not to run up corporate deficits, even for a "closed" corporation.
See above
There are literally no circumstances under which keynesianism will work for private entities.
Exactly. That's my point. Keynesianism is a macro-economic theory not a business strategy.
Also. Just so we are on the same page. What definition are you using for the term Keynesianism?
consumertariat: What do you mean when you use the word 'closed'? What do you think I mean when I use the term?
consumertariat:In what way do firms have the option to be closed?
consumertariat:Exactly. That's my point. Keynesianism is a macro-economic theory not a business strategy.
Economic goods flowing in/out of the organization.
Could you be a bit clearer on what you mean please? Are you saying that a closed system is one which has flows going in and out of it? This would be an open system not a closed one. A closed system is one that is self-sufficient and in which all flows circulate internally
A policy is "closed" if its economic impacts stay within the organization. But if you really want to press it, a corporation could just flat out refuse to trade with any other market pariticipant.
Would this imaginary organisation also have a captive population? A banking sector? An internal market of competing firms? its own currency? Its own legal system? If not, then the organisation you described would not be closed. Of course, what is being descibed here is not a business but an economy.
And if its not a valid strategy for businesses, and businesses are similar in many respects to states (they are both economic organizations)....
No. They are nothing like each other at all. They are qualitatively different structures in a million different ways. They have completely different dynamics and so must be analysed with different tools.
Consumariat :Could you be a bit clearer on what you mean please? Are you saying that a closed system is one which has flows going in and out of it? This would be an open system not a closed one. A closed system is one that is self-sufficient and in which all flows circulate internally
consumertariat:Would this imaginary organisation also have a captive population?
A banking sector?
An internal market of competing firms?
its own currency?
Its own legal system?
If not, then the organisation you described would not be closed.
Of course, what is being descibed here is not a business but an economy.
Obviously if goods are not flowing in or out, that is a "closed" organization economically speaking.
Ok. We are on the same page now.
Work contracts.
A work contract that forces the population to buy everything from inside the firm? One that prevents the population from getting a job outside the firm? This doesn't sound like a firm to me. It sounds like a nation state.
Corporate coupons
Corporate coupons is your definition of a fully developed financial sector?
They're sometimes called "asset teams"
Do these asset teams compete with each other for the custom of the coupon bearers? Do they produce all the amenities of life that they need? Do the asset teams all make different products and operate a division of labour?
Most corporations have rules, formal and informal.
Yes. And you can get a job elsewhere. So the system is not closed. Rules are not the same as laws.
Why does something have to have "internal competing firms" to be closed?
It doesn't. It has to have internal competing firms to be an economy. An economy is a system CONTAINING firms. A firm is not an economy. Get it?
An economy is just group organization of scarce resources.
No. It's not just that.
States are formed aggressively. That is the ONLY difference.
No. There are many reasons. Just a few of which I have listed here.
One of the most practiced libertarian strategies is to point out the ways in which the private sector operates similarly yet superior to the public sector.
Well then it's no surprise that libertarianism is not that widely accepted
Without meaning to seem rude, could I ask what your area of education was?
consumertariat:A work contract that forces the population to buy everything from inside the firm? One that prevents the population from getting a job outside the firm? This doesn't sound like a firm to me. It sounds like a nation state.
consumerteriat:Corporate coupons is your definition of a fully developed financial sector?
consumertariat:Do these asset teams compete with each other for the custom of the coupon bearers? Do they produce all the amenities of life that they need? Do the asset teams all make different products and operate a division of labour?
consumertariat:Yes. And you can get a job elsewhere. So the system is not closed. Rules are not the same as laws.
consumertariat:It doesn't. It has to have internal competing firms to be an economy. An economy is a system CONTAINING firms. A firm is not an economy. Get it?
consumertariat:No. It's not just that.
consumertariat:No. There are many reasons. Just a few of which I have listed here.
consumertariat:Well then it's no surprise that libertarianism is not that widely accepted
consumertariat:Without meaning to seem rude, could I ask what your level of education is?
The reason I asked is because your question is the sort of question a 13 year old would ask (And btw, at this point I don't care if I seem rude). I wanted to get a feel for the sort of level I needed to talk at.
Seeing as your a big boy now, I'm sure you will be able to cope with me telling you to go read some macro 101 because at the moment it is clear for all to see that you are an utter ignoramus. It's almost funny... almost.
No offense like.....
Oh, and this is even funnier:
"People do an incredible thing. No matter how incompetent they are, no matter how poor their knowledge or technical ability, people will sit there and pretend like they should be taken seriously. "
The irony is delicious
consumertariat:The reason I asked is because your question is the sort of question a 13 year old would ask (And btw, at this point I don't care if I seem rude). I wanted to get a feel for the sort of level I needed to talk at.
consumertariat:Seeing as your a big boy now, I'm sure you will be able to cope with me telling you to go read some macro 101 because at the moment it is clear for all to see that you are an utter ignoramus. It's almost funny... almost.
consumertariat:No offense like.....
consumertariat: Oh, and this is even funnier: "People do an incredible thing. No matter how incompetent they are, no matter how poor their knowledge or technical ability, people will sit there and pretend like they should be taken seriously. " The irony is delicious
Umad bro?
consumertariat:You have a serious misunderstanding about what I mean by a 'closed systems', which is why I was labouring the point. It's fuck all to do with 'strategy', it's about how the economy is modeled by most economists. Hint; a closed system is the opposite of an open one.
consumertariat:I didn't realise it was a game of Warhammer Online. But fair enough, if it makes you feel emasculated to 'declare victory' then go ahead Good thing you speak english. But yeah har har so funny warhammer online why are you so creative and witty? Btw you should probably learn to use the quote function instead of C&P like a 45 year old having a mid-life crisis.
consumertariat:I didn't realise it was a game of Warhammer Online. But fair enough, if it makes you feel emasculated to 'declare victory' then go ahead
consumertariat:To be honest, I can't argue with you on that point. Sometimes the Tinterweb does funny things to people, and it is quite fun to troll sometimes. I'm sure a delicate wallflower such as yourself will survive.
consumertariat:Oh, and as an aside, my 'definition' of an economy was more of a description. Unlike the genuinly esoteric mumblings of The Cult of Mises, I prefer to deal with things as how they are in reality as opposed to 'truths' garned via armchair philosophising and bonkers 'a-priori' reasoning.
I give up. You are clearly insane.
If you honestly believe that "why don't businesses adopt Keynesian policies?" is a good critique of Keynesianism then either you misunderstand what Keynesianism is, misunderstand what an economy is, or misunderstand what a business is. At this point I assume it is all three.
Good day Sir.
>Why don't businesses implement keynesian policies? >> Cus those policies are supposed to be for governments > Why won't they work for businesses? >> Because businesses aren't defined as governments > I know but what is it about businesses that make keynesianism inapplicable? >> Well, businesses aren't closed. > Governments aren't closed either, and businesses could be closed in theory: (long list of examples) > You are stupid and I can't use the quote function or words correctly See you later noob.
I don't think that last bullet is helping you :P
Hey, we might have some 45-year old in his mid-life crisis come here and be driven away by that. You never know.
@Sieben
Well played.
As I am a sucker for hitting my head against a brick wall, I though I would draw a pretty picture for you in the hope something might eventually sink in.
Fisrt off, it is not the "definition" of an economy per se, but the ACTUAL DESCRIPTION of one that matters. Individual firms and entire economies are quite clearly different in their structure, their function, their scale and their internal dynamics. To deny this in favour of some ideologically convienient 'definition' is a mistake.
Here is a simplified model of an economy that assumes net imports/exports to be zero. Roughly speaking, the Keyenesian theory says that savings and investment will not always be in balance. Sometimes there will be more investment than savings, at other times it is the other way round.
As a result, supply and demand can be out of whack. Sometimes aggregate demand will be too low, other times to high. To rebalance the system the Govt redirects the flows in various ways to ensure that aggregate supply and demand match.
Now look at the system from the perspective of the individual firm. The firm takes loans and invests in new production. It pays wages out and gets money in from its customers (the households). It is an OPEN system with flows going in and out.
If for some reason a firm is doing badly, it can take more loans sure (run a deficit), but if it cannot pay them back it goes bankrupt obviously. But at the national level, counter-cyclical fiscal policy just shifts around the money in the system in order to rebalance it. This is the fundamental difference between an individual firm and an entire economy.
You are claiming that Keynesian policy should work at firm level if it is to work at a national level. I am telling you that the POURPOSE of keynesian policy is to attempt to rebalance AGGREGATE supply and demand. How could a firm possibly do this?
Your question doesn't even make sense. It is like asking "If going for a jog is good for your entire body, why can't your lungs go for a jog by themselves?"
Consumariat: As a result, supply and demand can be out of whack. Sometimes aggregate demand will be too low, other times to high.
As a result, supply and demand can be out of whack. Sometimes aggregate demand will be too low, other times to high.
"out-of-whack", "too low", "too high" - as defined by whom? This is ultimately subjective.
Consumariat: . To rebalance the system the Govt redirects the flows in various ways to ensure that aggregate supply and demand match.
. To rebalance the system the Govt redirects the flows in various ways to ensure that aggregate supply and demand match.
Even granting the former statement - does this have to be government?
consumertariat: Fisrt off, it is not the "definition" of an economy per se, but the ACTUAL DESCRIPTION of one that matters. Individual firms and entire economies are quite clearly different in their structure, their function, their scale and their internal dynamics. To deny this in favour of some ideologically convienient 'definition' is a mistake.
consumertariat:Here is a simplified model of an economy that assumes net imports/exports to be zero.
Your diagram is also not empirically correct. See the government also derives revenue from banks in the form of loans (like businesses), and obtains taxes from both firms and households (your diagram does not make this clear...). Firms also "consume" each other's products, so its not just "households" that buy the products of firms. Firms also SAVE and contribute to the loan-base. Firms also do not HAVE to take out loans - any economist will tell you that. Banks are also firms themselves, so... you know... durp. I mean, you could write "government" where you have "firms" written and it would still be as correct as you have it now. You're basically just defining firms to be these white-collar 9-5 operations, but they don't HAVE to be. You have never challenged this. You have never challenged my observation that there are a variety of organizational strategies open to firms. So good job. But I guess drawing a diagram makes you feel smart.
consumertariat: Now look at the system from the perspective of the individual firm. The firm takes loans and invests in new production. It pays wages out and gets money in from its customers (the households). It is an OPEN system with flows going in and out.
consumertariat:If for some reason a firm is doing badly, it can take more loans sure (run a deficit), but if it cannot pay them back it goes bankrupt obviously. But at the national level, counter-cyclical fiscal policy just shifts around the money in the system in order to rebalance it. This is the fundamental difference between an individual firm and an entire economy.
consumertariat:You are claiming that Keynesian policy should work at firm level if it is to work at a national level. I am telling you that the POURPOSE of keynesian policy is to attempt to rebalance AGGREGATE supply and demand. How could a firm possibly do this?
consumertariat:Your question doesn't even make sense. It is like asking "If going for a jog is good for your entire body, why can't your lungs go for a jog by themselves?"
I'm actually lost for words at how obtuse you are. Jesus wept!