My other inquiry thread on libertarian socialism got swept away in a sea of confusion, so I'm creating this new one.
From what I have read about it, anarcho-communism advocates the abolition of the state, capitalism, and private property.
I would like to make this as simple as possible: how could you abolish capitalism and private property without coercion from things like the state? Or better yet - how is anarcho-communism compatible with voluntaryism?
New socialist man.
“Since people are concerned that ‘X’ will not be provided, ‘X’ will naturally be provided by those who are concerned by its absence.""The sweetest of minds can harbor the harshest of men.”
http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.org
Kelvin Silva:New socialist man.
Yep, that about sums it up. The assumption of anarcho-communism is that people will voluntarily act against their own rational self-interest, which requires people of a very different sort than have ever lived, aka New Socialist Man.
Fortunately, libertarianism / anarcho-communism does not require anything like a "new libertarian-humankind."
It is for this reason that socialism is utopian (in the sense of being unachievably utopian), because it requires a species of human being that does not exist in order to work. In contrast, libertarianism is not utopian but eminently realizable, because it's designed to work with humankind as they are now.
I'm not going into detail here, too tired, but I'll say that I think that anarcho-communism has thusfar been utterly misrepresented in this thread. Here's the wikipedia page. I have a particular soft spot for Kropotkin in my heart. I've written about how the left and "right" anarchisms are compatible and may well even complement each other. Any socialist anarchist who does not believe that their interests ultimately align with the formation of a voluntaryist world is sadly mistaken, for if their theories are correct, and if their system would come about anyway, it is in their best interest to see the free market world a reality.
I have to say that it's interesting to contrast the left and right conceptions of the state, for socialists see the state as a tyrannical system which enforces capitalism, while the anarchists see that it is a violent institution which is evil exactly because it violates property rights.
EDIT
It should also be noted that I am talking about the strictly "anarchist" version of anarcho-communism, not the "Marxist" version of this tradition, which does require a change in human nature brought about by the new changes in the new production structure of socialism.
In other words, anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism are simply two possible structures of society in an anarchist world.
Also, when looking at history, it seems like an-commies don't support the NAP. They really pioneered "propaganda of the deed."
SkepticalMetal: In other words, anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism are simply two possible structures of society in an anarchist world.
It's true that these are simply two possible structures. The fact is that a stateless society based on voluntarism would be tolerant of nearly endless forms of societal structuring.
You could, in an anarch context, create a system very similar to existing American cities. You could create socialist systems full of people voluntarily living communally.
There's only one requirement: voluntarism.
If that's in place, whatever else follows is merely a matter of free association between adults.
I want to create a way for people to easily experiment and build such systems and group together within them, using online identities and concepts involving law-as-code which would take up far too much space here :P
how could you abolish capitalism and private property without coercion from things like the state?
Depends of the defition of coersion, or more preciselly, the definition of property. Being that AnComs don't see private property as legitimate property
Or better yet - how is anarcho-communism compatible with voluntaryism?
With voluntaryism as a capitalist system, it is not. With voluntaryism in the sense that people will not be forced into communes, it is the core of anarcho-communism, but that doesn't means that AnComs would tolerate capitalism or feudalism or slavery, no matter if they are voluntary or not, it just means that AnComs are socialists. Socialism means establishing mutualism where some (or all) people voluntarily decide to form Bakuninist collectives or Kropotkian communes.
he assumption of anarcho-communism is that people will voluntarily act against their own rational self-interest
Difference in view of what is rational self-interest. Collectivist anarchist, as opposed to capitalists, see cooperation and solidarity as being in the ration of self-interest of people involved, not competition.
It is for this reason that socialism is utopian (in the sense of being unachievably utopian)
Yet socialism has been successfully established.
because it requires a species of human being that does not exist
Does anarchism require "perfect" people to work? The next chapter on the link is also related.
stsoc:Difference in view of what is rational self-interest.
That's exactly right, my mistake. Strictly speaking, a person always acts in his self-interest, because his self-interest is whatever he believes it to be, and he always acts in what they believe to be his self-interest. So, let me rephrase my original comment; the assumption of anarcho-communism is that people will view certain things as being in their self-interest which historically people have not viewed as being in their self-interest: e.g. working even though they could live just as well on the product of others without working (the classic incentive problem, which can only be solved by creating the New Socialist Man).
So, let me rephrase my original comment; the assumption of anarcho-communism is that people will view certain things as being in their self-interest which historically people have not viewed as being in their self-interest
Kropotkin did a nice job in responding to this kind of view by saying that cooperation has historically been seen by all beings, including people, as being in their self-interest, in his book Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution
working even though they could live just as well on the product of others without working
Well, this is considered by socialist as immoral, someone's preference for it in no way justifies it.
So basically, anarcho-communism is not possible without force, although this force will not come from a "state."
And technically, isn't a kibbutz an example of a socialist yet voluntary society?
Well, this is considered by socialist as immoral
"So basically, anarcho-communism is not possible without force, although this force will not come from a 'state.'"
Society is impossible without some degree of force. Technically it all comes down to definitions of legitimate property
"So, let me rephrase my original comment; the assumption of anarcho-communism is that people will view certain things as being in their self-interest which historically people have not viewed as being in their self-interest: e.g. working even though they could live just as well on the product of others without working (the classic incentive problem, which can only be solved by creating the New Socialist Man)."
As stosc stated Anarcho-communism has nothing to do with the "new socialist man" as such. While it does employ an unrealistic view of man, especially involving the effects of democracy, it's view of man is not extremely unrealistic, as most individuals, when put in the communist situation, will cooperate with each other.
I am dissatisfied with the level of discussion that has thusfar been advanced in this thread.
Then how is An-comm compatible with voluntaryism?
MY HEAD HURTS
Yes. Being that socialists consider that capitalism is based on theft, and that private property as recognized in capitalism is not legitimate property, we would not see it as an unjustified use of force to violently abolish capitalism and expropriate the capitalists.
socialism always involves forcing productive people to support non-productive people. Its in their charter.
Our charter is diametrically the opposite. Two main pillars of socialism are no unearned incomes (rent), and workers' self-management.
I repeat: With voluntaryism as a capitalist system, it is not. With voluntaryism in the sense that people will not be forced into communes, it is the core of anarcho-communism, those who don't want to join a commune but to be self-sufficient, barter or form mutualist markets or bakuninist collectives, they would be able to do that without any problem.
You sound like you are an anarcho-communist.
Strict anarcho-communism isn't because it has a different view of property rights, however if they said "here, we're gonna form communes where we treat property the way that we want it to be treated" and they indeed do this, then there is nothing contradictory between voluntarism and anarcho-communism. In this way the systems could exist side by side and people could choose how they wanted to live. As I expressed in the above link, I think these sorts of societies could play complementary roles for people who don't necessarily enjoy the capitalistic lifestyle. The fact that the two systems exist side by side would keep both more "competitive" and could help compensate for the problems with either one.
"those who don't want to join a commune but to be self-sufficient, barter or form mutualist markets"
Those are all forms of capitalism.
But as I said, it doesn't look like the NAP is appreciated by anarcho-communists. Again, "propaganda of the deed."
Yet it could be respected by them. How things are now need not be how things always are. Most communists today certainly respect the rules of society... Or else they'd all be dead.
I am a communist, yes.
No socialist sees them as such.
Okay, so isn't a kibbutz sort of an example of this? (A limited one being that it is still under the state, but proof that in a voluntaryist society, capitalist and socialist societies could coexist)
Which one is the one that says there has to be a new socialist man?
Is that one marxist?
Yes
Oh yeah, I remember that they say that Marxism, if implemented, will make everybody perfect, or something like that.
SkepticalMetal: Okay, so isn't a kibbutz sort of an example of this? (A limited one being that it is still under the state, but proof that in a voluntaryist society, capitalist and socialist societies could coexist)
Yes, a free society can tolerate a group of people who decide they want to live in communalist fashion, as long as they do so voluntarily and don't try to force their conclusions on others.
What's interesting is that the socialists will not allow capitalists to co-exist in their societies. Just look at Stsoc who keeps saying capitalism would be outlaws in his preferred society, and that even voluntary relations of employer and employee would be interfered with, without prior complaint by one of the parties.
Wow.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Neodoxy just say something completely different?
I don't understand why voluntarism has been deemed undesirable by anarcho-communists. In a voluntaryist world, if anarcho-communism is so wonderful, then presumably everyone would indeed voluntarily give up capitalism to go live the AnComm lifestyle.
So let me see this...
The reason why anarcho communism would be voluntary is because under a communist's viewpoint, people's natural tendencies are to form small communes and live in a communist society....
And under a communist society, how would it work?
Ststoc, have you read chaos theory by Robert Murphy?
http://www.amazon.com/Chaos-Theory-Murphy-Robert-P-Murphy/dp/B001DC6JB8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1351359285&sr=8-2&keywords=chaos+theory+robert+murphy
He describes how an anarcho capitalist society might function.
Is there something similar to this, but from an anarcho communist viewpoint?
The theory that would work for this is "dual-structure." I'm writing a paper on it, currently.
capitalism would be outlaws in his preferred society, and that even voluntary relations of employer and employee would be interfered with, without prior complaint by one of the parties.
Yes. Voluntary relation between a slaveowner and the slave, lord and serf, subject and autocrat, employer and employee would be abolished. So would hierarchical forms of army, marriage, organized religion, etc.
I don't understand why voluntarism has been deemed undesirable by anarcho-communists.
Why is voluntarism not enough?
AnCom being voluntary because no one would be forced be into communes.
I didn't read that book, so I don't know what exactly what you mean? Do you mean like a detailed blue print of how a socialist society would be organized?
stsoc:Well, this is considered by socialist as immoral, someone's preference for it in no way justifies it.
This sort of baffles me.
To my mind, there are three types of property: private, public, and common. Private property belongs to individuals, and entails the right to exclude others from the use of that property. This is obviously what libertarians are interested in. By "public property" I mean property belonging to the State. Now, this is somewhat problematic, because (ignoring how the State acquires its property), public property is functionally identical to private property insofar as the owner in each case has the right to exclude others from the use of the property, which is the essence of property. This is what we see in State-socialism. And finally, common property is really a misnomer, it's not property at all but rather the absence of property: as no one has any right to exclude anyone else from its use.
Now, if socialism wishes to abolish private property, and is anti-state, all that remains is common property: i.e. no property at all. The problem I mentioned, of people being able to avoid work while taking what they like from others (from the "common storehouse," etc) is an instance of the tragedy of the commons. That's my position. So, returning to your comment, are you saying that in fact socialism does involve property (either private or public), or that, indeed, there is only common "property," but nonetheless somehow people are to be discouraged from exploiting it in such a way as to cause a tragedy of the commons?
Finally, judging by your comments elsewhere, your version of socialism seems to admit of private property. just not private ownership of the means of production. So then, for you, the tragedy of the commons problem only arises with respect to the means of production, which is commonly owned (i.e. not owned at all). Is that right?
Note: If you say that the workers' collectives own the means of production (as opposed to the means of production being commonly owned - and these are very different claims), well then really you do allow for private property on all levels, as I would argue that the workers' collectives (stripped of their metaphysical/mystical qualities) are really just corporations if they own the capital. And if that's true, well then I'm trying to think what your "socialism" actually amounts to, and how it differs from anarcho-capitalism. It seems the only distinction is your prohibition on workers renting the means of production, as you put it, the only real effect of which is to alter the structure of corporations and make them less hierarchical. And actually, I think it's even debatable whether in the long-term workers' cooperatives would be less hierarchical (however exactly one defines that) than standard capitalist-owned firms. As we all know, the people cannot literally rule. It is logistically impossible, especially for a business enterprise which has to actually be productive, and cannot externalize its costs onto taxpayers. I'd concede that very small cooperatives could remain fairly egalitarian, since there's less need for management in a simpler and smaller operation. But why would cooperatives remain small? Wouldn't they, like any other capitalist-owned firm, seek to exploit economies of scale? And it seems to me that the cooperatives which grew to a large size yet remained stubbornly egalitarian in organizational structure would fall behind and be driven out of business by other firms which were willing to introduce hierarchy. So, ultimately, I think you'd end up with a bunch of "workers cooperatives" which are structured very much like normal corporations, with various hierarchies of management and so forth. The only difference would be the absence of "the capitalist." But then again, if the cooperative actually owns the means of production, and the workers control the cooperative, it amounts to a joint-stock corporation, with the workers as shareholders - and that's in fact how many real cooperatives operate today. And then...well, what the heck's the difference between this and a normal corporation?
....My apologies for this very long and not very tightly focused post.
Private property belongs to individuals, and entails the right to exclude others from the use of that property. This is obviously what libertarians are interested in. By "public property" I mean property belonging to the State. Now, this is somewhat problematic, because (ignoring how the State acquires its property), public property is functionally identical to private property insofar as the owner in each case has the right to exclude others from the use of the property, which is the essence of property. This is what we see in State-socialism.
As you said, "public property" being functionally the same as "private property", it's not state socialism, but state capitalism. The point of socialism is to institute a different notion of property, which we deem legitimate, as opposed to the current one.
The problem I mentioned, of people being able to avoid work while taking what they like from others (from the "common storehouse," etc) is an instance of the tragedy of the commons.
Only technological utopians espouse this view. All other communists (being that you mentioned "common storehouse" you means a communistic type of socialism) are both for informal limits on how much one can take from the common storehouse, and a more formal limit of a minimal quota of labor contribution necessary to make all the products that are to be in that common storehouse that would allow one to take from the storehouse in the first place.
Socialistic notion of property is that of a strict interpretation of labor theory of property. Under socialistic theory of property, areas of land cannot be property (being that they are not products of labor) but could only be "occupied-and-used" (as Tucker popularised the term), and rent is illegitimate, also intellectual property. To have constant income, one would have exert constant labor.
are really just corporations if they own the capital.
Could be called something like that. E.g. each factory would be owned by it's corporation, and the corporation would be a workers' cooperative contituted by the workers in that factory.
And if that's true, well then I'm trying to think what your "socialism" actually amounts to, and how it differs from anarcho-capitalism.
The view on property as I explained.
And actually, I think it's event debatable whether in the long-term worker's cooperatives would be less hierarchical (however exactly one defines that) than standard capitalist-owned firms.
I do not see how coops coul be hierarchical. If they are hierarchical, they are not genuine coops.
I'd concede that very small cooperatives could remain fairly egalitarian
There are ideas of socialistic organization that are made for large-scale industrial societies, like (a type of anarcho-communism) anarcho-syndicalism. And that has been proved to be economically fiesable by the Spanish Revolution where Catalonia and Andalusia were organised according to it's tenets.
And it seems to me that the cooperatives which grew to a large size yet remained stubbornly egalitarian in organizational structure would fall behind and be driven out of business by other firms which were willing to introduce hierarchy.
Which is not a justification of hierarchy.
@ stsoc
"Yes. Voluntary relation between a slaveowner and the slave, lord and serf, subject and autocrat, employer and employee would be abolished. So would hierarchical forms of army, marriage, organized religion, etc."
I don't understand. How is the relationship between "slaveowner and the slave" voluntary in any way? The slave, I'm assuming, did not voluntarily enter into that relationship. It's the same with lord and serf, subject and autocrat. But the employee on the other hand voluntarily entered into the agreement to work for the employer.
stsoc:Only technological utopians espouse this view. All other communists (being that you mentioned "common storehouse" you means a communistic type of socialism) are both for informal limits on how much one can take from the common storehouse, and a more formal limit of a minimal quota of labor contribution necessary to make all the products that are to be in that common storehouse that would allow one to take from the storehouse in the first place.
Who would enforce such rules? Given that violations of these rules would be crimes against the public interest, not crimes against anyone in particular, it seems you need something like a public prosecutor, as well as public police, because it's in no one's particular interest to spend resources deterring, catching, prosecuting, and punishing offenders. Moreover, for a large group, doesn't this imply hierarchy? Doesn't the initial creation, periodic alteration, and enforcement of such rules requires some kind of standing body of people specializing in these tasks, people who "tell others what to do"?
Right.
I do not see how coops coul be hierarchical. If they are hierarchical, they are not genuine coops...Which is not a justification of hierarchy.
If it is true as a matter of fact that a society organized along the lines you've described would witness initially egalitarian workers' cooperatives transformed into entities which are functionally identical to normal corporations, indeed, that is not an ethical justification of hierarchy, but it is a problem for your theory. Likewise, if it were true as a matter of fact that the emergence of the State in an anarcho-capitalist society is inevitable, that would not be an ethical justification of the State, but it would pose a major problem for anarcho-capitalism. In other words, if the respective facts of the matter turned out that way for your version of socialism or for anarcho-capitalism, it wouldn't make them unethical political systems, but it would make them utopian political systems.
I admit that I'm not an expert in that literature, but from what I have read, I'm not terribly impressed (I find a lot of it basically incomprehensible). But I guess for me it almost doesn't matter whether such socialist organization is feasible, because even if it were, I don't see why it's desirable. I don't have any preference for egalitarianism as such, or any problem with hierarchy as such. Strikes me as much ado about nothing.
I too have no desire to impose egalitarianism. Nor any problem with hierarchy.
It is only aggression that I despise. And, seemingly without fail, those in favor of egalitarianism and against hierarchy suggest using aggression to achieve their ends, for such ends can only be thus achieved.
I would like you, if it's not too much trouble, to post on here your stance on things so we can all hear your viewpoints, i.e. what kind of society you want to see and why.
I don't understand. How is the relationship between "slaveowner and the slave" voluntary in any way? The slave, I'm assuming, did not voluntarily enter into that relationship.
People have become slaves troughout history by selling themselves, it existed in every law until some couple of centuries ago, in antebellum America six states had laws that explicitly mentioned the word "voluntarily" in the laws about the "freedom" of free "Negros" to sell themselves. E.g. In Luisiana a law was passed in 1859 which is about how could "free persons of color to voluntarily select masters and become slaves for life".
It's the same with lord and serf, subject and autocrat.
Oaths of fealty and pactus subiectionis were almost always accepted voluntarily. People accepting them were forced to do so by economic cincrumstances (of course, those who sold themselves into slavery, too), and capitalists, afaik, do not consider that coercion.
Who would enforce such rules?
People themselves. Socialism would probably mean a popular millitia. Or the community could decide that there should exist job positions of policemen in the community, and one could do that job and meet the labor quota needed to consume the products from the common storehouse. The job of policemen, like the laws they would enforce would be decided by extensive deliberation and plebiscites. They would be considered a simple brach of industry that the community wants to have.
E.g. Hungarian Revolution in 1958 tried to established socialism, and among other workers' councils like mine worker, agricultural, and factory worker councils, there were councils of "state emplyees", that is councils of police and army who joined the revolution and who didn't have a hierarchical, but simply an organisational, equal democratic position among other workers' councils.
The question of whether police is a branch of industry a socialist society would need is one of the few organizational question where socialist schools diverge. Other questions are prefence between markets, arkets, or monyless economies; and whether should socialists use elections and gain power in the state in order to dimsantle it, or should there be a direct action revolution (general strike with armed conflict).
Moreover, for a large group, doesn't this imply hierarchy?
Every complex organization will require some level of representation for needs of coordination, but I don't see any need for hierarchy.
If it is true as a matter of fact that a society organized along the lines you've described would witness initially egalitarian workers' cooperatives transformed into entities which are functionally identical to normal corporations
Which I don't find true.
I admit that I'm not an expert in that literature, but from what I have read, I'm not terribly impressed (I find a lot of it basically incomprehensible)
Well, as far as anarcho-communism is concerned, the ideas of organization are in the books of Kropotkin himself- The Conquest of Bread, and Fields, Factories and Workshops, and an anarcho-communist vision of a large scale industrial society, also called anarcho-syndicalism, is best presented in Diego de Santillan's After the Revolution.
I don't have any preference for egalitarianism as such, or any problem with hierarchy as such.
Nor any problem with hierarchy.
Is it possible to be an anarchist without opposing hierarchy?
I cannot go into detail in a few sentances, but I can say that all socialists: mutualists, anarcho-individualists (which is a type of mutualism), anarcho-collectivists, anarcho-communists, anarcho-sydicalists (which are a type of anarcho-communists), parecon (a type of anarcho-collectivism), council communists (similar to anarcho-communists, except in details in tactics), orthodox marxists (also called world socialist), De Leonists (similar to anarcho-sydicalists, exept in some tactics), guild socialists (similar to anarcho-sydicalists and De Leonists), Esers, liberal socialists (like Ricardians, Hodgsinks, Thompson, Mill, which are similar to mutualists); all these types of socialists disagree on the three questions I mentioned above, but all want the same thing: a non-hierarchial economy without unearned incomes where people are free to organize according to ideas of any of these schools.