I'm not talking about your trashy conspiracy theories like we've never had a real President since JFK, or, that the FBI watches aliens and stuff like that. I'm asking about the conspiracy theories about international banking, about the CIA, and about Ronald Reagen, and Bush and Obama and stuff like that. Conspiracy theorists have always pointed out that the government is extremely corrupt and that mindless sheep don't know what to do and they just keep voting for the same two parties not wanting any real change.
People who firmly believe in conspiracy theories are great at pointing out the lies of the statist MSM and they have a really great understanding about how propaganda works. A long time ago I used to just look at conspiracy theories for entertainment. Now I think there is quite a bit of truth to them. -911 may have not been an inside job... but they did a great job at ignoring intelligence... and using it to start two wars. We are constantly lied to for war just like conspiracy theorists have said for a long time. Our current education system was designed by Rockefeller types and people in big business in cooperation with the government (the fascist corporatist state that we have) to focus less on the thinking part of school. People mindlessly love Obama... Obama is the good cop to the George W Bush bad cop. America's ideology has shifted from conservatism to modern liberalism in a massive propaganda campaign that fooled voters into thinking that the Democrats were somehow the savior to everyone's problems.
Conspiracy theorists see that there is something wrong with society. They see that there is something wrong with the country, and, they understand the hypocrisy about our government and lobbyists. They frequently point out to the CFR and I think conspiracy theorists have been vindicated with all their theories about that organization... them and their war-mongering ways.
People who used to talk about government secrecy and the NSA spying on people were laughed at before. Now we know more about the NSA wiretapping program... and we know more about what the government does to watch people and they're building something like an omnipresent state.
So I was wondering what you think since this is a classic liberal/libertarian/anarchist forum that is against the state gaining power and that kind of thing. Do you feel that conspiracy theorists have been vindicated? There could very well elites who want a new world order... there could very well be elements of an illuminati like secret society which conspiracy theorists describe somewhere in Washington DC. The elites do after all meet in Bohemian groove each year or so and perform satanic rituals. So... II just was wondering what you think. I think after all these years I think that conspiracy theorists have proven that they have a fundamental grasp on the mechanisms that guide a corrupt big government. There may big government conspiracy theorists out there but I don't think they're that common... but that's another discussion for later. What do you think?
As has been said here before, it's not that all the conspiracy theories are false; it's that they miss the point.
The point is that whenever there is a monopoly on force, it'll be easier for other rich and powerful groups to conspire with the monopoly than to compete in the market. So they will. Yes there are conspiracies, but there's nothing unexpected about them unless you're viewing them from a Statist perspective. The conspirators are all de facto parts of the monopoly on force to the degree to which they are connected with the State. The State is the shady sales pitch; the conspiracies are the fine print you have to send a SASE for.
Why anarchy fails
I recently watched The Obama Deception... The documentary was rushed to get it out quickly, but it is surprisingly good.
SilentXtarian:there could very well be elements of an illuminati like secret society which conspiracy theorists describe somewhere in Washington DC.
SilentXtarian:Conspiracy theorists have always pointed out that the government is extremely corrupt and that mindless sheep don't know what to do and they just keep voting for the same two parties not wanting any real change.
SilentXtarian:A long time ago I used to just look at conspiracy theories for entertainment. Now I think there is quite a bit of truth to them. -911 may have not been an inside job... but they did a great job at ignoring intelligence... and using it to start two wars.
People are free to label me a "conspiracy theorist" as long as I can call them "coincidence theorists" :)
As for 911, I have no idea whether it was part of a plan or just incompetence. Either way is plainly inexcusable. But to your point, I'm reminded of the line from Serpico where one of the dirty cops says something to Pacino's character like, anyways I don't remember the exact line but it was like, "The rest of us dirty cops don't have to actually shoot you, but one day when you need backup or help, maybe we just won't be there in time."
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David Z
"The issue is always the same, the government or the market. There is no third solution."
The only thing wrong with 'conspiracy theories' is that they go too far in positting some kind of organization in charge of everything. Once you realize that people are merely self interested and looking to make their lives better, you realize there are two choices in how to go about doing this: use persuasion or use force. 9/11 wasn't part of a conspiracy, it's just in the after effect of the government doing what's in the interest of it's supporters and not caring about the effect it might have on the population as a whole. It's not that George W. Bush and his administration wanted the towers to be hit or all those people to die, much less played an active role. They just honestly didn't give a damn enough about the possibility to take steps to stop it, and surely weren't going to alter their behaviors which encouraged it. Once it happened of course, they used it to their benefit, and likely are taking steps they think will stop it from happening again, but which also not coincidentally serve their ends of expanding power and continuing policies which very arguably originally contributed to the circumstances which lead to the attacks in the first place. Their answer isn't, "Wow, maybe we should stop pissing off Arabs..." No, it's wow, "We were right about those Arabs, they are animals, and now we're just going to have to take away some of our own citizens' freedoms for their own security, because we're sure as hell not going to stop pissing off Arabs."
Just people looking out for their, and most definitely not yours or my, best interests.
xahrx: The only thing wrong with 'conspiracy theories' is that they go too far in positting some kind of organization in charge of everything. Once you realize that people are merely self interested and looking to make their lives better, you realize there are two choices in how to go about doing this: use persuasion or use force. 9/11 wasn't part of a conspiracy, it's just in the after effect of the government doing what's in the interest of it's supporters and not caring about the effect it might have on the population as a whole. It's not that George W. Bush and his administration wanted the towers to be hit or all those people to die, much less played an active role. They just honestly didn't give a damn enough about the possibility to take steps to stop it, and surely weren't going to alter their behaviors which encouraged it. Once it happened of course, they used it to their benefit, and likely are taking steps they think will stop it from happening again, but which also not coincidentally serve their ends of expanding power and continuing policies which very arguably originally contributed to the circumstances which lead to the attacks in the first place. Their answer isn't, "Wow, maybe we should stop pissing off Arabs..." No, it's wow, "We were right about those Arabs, they are animals, and now we're just going to have to take away some of our own citizens' freedoms for their own security, because we're sure as hell not going to stop pissing off Arabs." Just people looking out for their, and most definitely not yours or my, best interests.
That logic is very flawed. Conspiracy theorists are more intersted in the power behind the state. They already know that the state is already horrible, and, that all this stuff is just an illusion. They're looking to wake people up to the corrupt power mechanisms behind the scenes. Now they may misunderstand the mechanisms of a state and how big government always tends to lead to this kind of corruption... but that doesn't mean that they're doing this for their own interests. I haven't talked to any conspiracy theorist who have had an agenda in mind other than that of truth.
I daresay that, in the future, scholars will look back on 9/11 as we look back on the Reichstag fire today. It's a fairly well established fact that Hitler didn't have anything to do with the Reichstag fire, nonetheless it benefited him immensely.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
SilentXtarian:That logic is very flawed. Conspiracy theorists are more intersted in the power behind the state. They already know that the state is already horrible, and, that all this stuff is just an illusion. They're looking to wake people up to the corrupt power mechanisms behind the scenes. Now they may misunderstand the mechanisms of a state and how big government always tends to lead to this kind of corruption... but that doesn't mean that they're doing this for their own interests. I haven't talked to any conspiracy theorist who have had an agenda in mind other than that of truth.
I didn't say the theorists had an agenda, I said they presume too much from the given facts and assume organized maliciousness when a chance combination of mere stupidity, vapidity, and general self interest with a preference for using force rather than getting voluntary agreement are all that need be proposed to explain things. Put simply there is no Illuminati, just a bunch of people looking out for themselves who agree on certain things, one of them being that it's okay to use government force to get results, and perhaps even preferential for them to do so.
xahrx:I didn't say the theorists had an agenda, I said they presume too much from the given facts and assume organized maliciousness when a chance combination of mere stupidity, vapidity, and general self interest with a preference for using force rather than getting voluntary agreement are all that need be proposed to explain things. Put simply there is no Illuminati, just a bunch of people looking out for themselves who agree on certain things, one of them being that it's okay to use government force to get results, and perhaps even preferential for them to do so.
Yes, this! Seriously, there needn't be any assumptions about Bush et al being malicious, just self interested and somewhat misguided. Bryan Caplan makes the point that politicians are likely to share many of the misconceptions that voters do, so if the voters think that we need to go to war to defend America it's all too likely that the politicians they elect will have similar views.
The whole point is that George Bush didn't need to fly planes into the Twin Towers, it was just an opportunity that fell into his hands. The thing is, if the government (or the Bush administration, or whatever) really were as powerful and as dangerous as conspiracy theories make them out to be then why on earth isn't Dylan Avery dead by now?
GilesStratton:It's a fairly well established fact that Hitler didn't have anything to do with the Reichstag fire
Is it?
xahrx:I said they presume too much from the given facts and assume organized maliciousness when a chance combination of mere stupidity, vapidity, and general self interest with a preference for using force rather than getting voluntary agreement are all that need be proposed to explain things.
I agree that some presume too much, but you do too. They presume a conspiracy, and you presume coincidence.
xahrx:Put simply there is no Illuminati
Can you prove this?
xahrx:just a bunch of people looking out for themselves who agree on certain things, one of them being that it's okay to use government force to get results, and perhaps even preferential for them to do so.
How does this disqualify the existence of an Illuminati?
xahrx:It's not that George W. Bush and his administration wanted the towers to be hit or all those people to die, much less played an active role.
How do you know?
xahrx:They just honestly didn't give a damn enough about the possibility to take steps to stop it, and surely weren't going to alter their behaviors which encouraged it.
xahrx:Their answer isn't, "Wow, maybe we should stop pissing off Arabs..." No, it's wow, "We were right about those Arabs, they are animals, and now we're just going to have to take away some of our own citizens' freedoms for their own security, because we're sure as hell not going to stop pissing off Arabs."
Right, and democrats and republicans really don't like each other.
At the highest levels, the government is completely corrupt. The only thing that keeps them in check, is that they require the consent of the lower ranks and constituency to take action. The idea that they are stupid or incompetent, is undermined by the fact that we continue to pay them taxes, follow their rules, and die in their wars.
SilentXtarian: People mindlessly love Obama...
People mindlessly love Obama...
Eh. I apologize if I don't buy that. Afterall, his approval ratings are actually lower than Bush had during his first year of office. Look how unpopular he became. It's all just partisan bullshit.
AJ: As has been said here before, it's not that all the conspiracy theories are false; it's that they miss the point. The point is that whenever there is a monopoly on force, it'll be easier for other rich and powerful groups to conspire with the monopoly than to compete in the market. So they will. Yes there are conspiracies, but there's nothing unexpected about them unless you're viewing them from a Statist perspective. The conspirators are all de facto parts of the monopoly on force to the degree to which they are connected with the State. The State is the shady sales pitch; the conspiracies are the fine print you have to send a SASE for.
LOL! You just made my day.
SerfAmericano:Their theories are a rational analysis of information concerning events which have not been made available to the public. Every explanation helps society come closer to the answer. Generating popular interest is the crucial step that must be taken for the information to ever be released.
liberty student: GilesStratton:It's a fairly well established fact that Hitler didn't have anything to do with the Reichstag fire Is it?
Yes, in fact David Gordon of the LvMI had to respond to some criticism over it when he wrote an article about the fire.
GilesStratton: I daresay that, in the future, scholars will look back on 9/11 as we look back on the Reichstag fire today. It's a fairly well established fact that Hitler didn't have anything to do with the Reichstag fire, nonetheless it benefited him immensely.
I wrote my graduation paper in grammar school on false flag terrorism as exemplified by the Reichstag fire. It's not true that Hitler's involvement in the fire has been disproved beyond reasonable doubt.As a matter of fact, it's astounding how proponents of the communist arson theory seem to ignore important pieces of evidence from the crime scene, critical witness reports or the conspicuously incoherent evening activities of leading Nazi personnel on that day, to name only a few things.If anything, I'd compare the Reichstag fire to the current debate on man's influence on global warming. Each party likes to accuse the other of being stooges of some kind and it's still too polarized to come to a scientifically satisfying conclusion.
I wasn't aware the controversy had been proven one way or another. But the reichstag fire is irrelevant anyway. We already have proof of American government conspiracy to go to war in Iraq, the Lusitania, the Gulf of Tonkin, and we already have proof of American government conspiracy to commit domestic terror with Operation Northwoods.
These are the publicly known government conspiracies, and certainly lay a foundation for the "possible". I don't think they prove anything about 9/11, except that the myth that no one could have imagined 9/11 before 9/11, only belongs to those ignorant of history (specifically Northwoods).
My personal opinion on this subject is that you can't accept every conspiracy theory but you can't really deny them all either. It's true that it's stupid to think that a group of people are responsible for everything and that we're not responsible at all for our own problems.
What's equally stupid is to assume that there is no organization or no such organization that exists that can potentially help an international body rule over sovereign states and make decisions- the Un and the G20 and G8 conferences meet regularly and do this, so it's stupid to think that no groups like the bilderberg group don't exist.
I also think that it's equally stupid to deny that people have nefarous motives for doing things, that the government lies, or, that the world is based on a lot of false truths and premises. The conspiracy theory philosophy is quite an interesting one. It assumes that the world is built on a web of lies and that there are nefarous forces as to why these things are the way they are. It's essentially an attempt to deal with the cynicism of the world. That's the nature of a conspiracy is that it has to be sinister.
Of course, not everything is a conspiracy and I think conspiracy theorists hurt themselves when they go too far. I wish conspiracy theorists would be more rational. They make really great points about the bilderberg group and the elitistst who push for global cooperation and how they're really just looking to exercise more control over world politics.
Yet, I also see that they miss the point and that most of them tend to either be state apologists, but there is also another group of those who have become completely disatisfied with the current state of politics and wants it to return to a much smaller government (there are two kinds of conspiracy theorists- those that like the state, and those who wish it to be smaller, the rest are anarchists).
I think that conspiracy theories as a whole for the most part have been vindicated. There are other theories that won't ever be proven. There will be the theories that are laughed at and ridiculed... but the conspiracy theory ideology is mainly a way to deal with the cynicism of the world and whether you are on the side of the state apologists or the side of the minimal government conspiracy theorists... or anarchists posing to be conspiracy theorists....
I think that those that do study this craft should really think even more outside the box than they are. A government doesn't have to operate with cabals to be evil. Nor does Area 51 have to have aliens to make the world seem less sinister. It's those kinds of irrational theories that I think harm the conspiracy theorists. So, but I think if they focused more on cynicism than this other stuff they would have a better reputation.
The conspiracy theory philosophy is one stage in the evolution of one's understanding of the monopoly situation we live under.
Secret organizations do not "rule over" States; they merely feed off the monopoly and become just another de facto part of it. The observation that such organizations can heavily influence decision-making is unsurprising except to those who do not recognize that they are a de facto part of the State monopoly. Naturally this also renders irrelevant any arguments about to "who has more power," as if all we have to do is identify the kingpins and go after them. The conspiracy theory philosophy may be a nice way to shake Statists out of their slumber, but once they're awake it's time to move on to seeing the big picture.
Ultimately I think there is little practical distinction between States, corporatist companies, powerful lobbying groups and the organizations covered by conspiracy theorists. The nature of a monopoly on force is that once you attach to it, you become part of it to the degree of that attachment. The monopoly on force is the disease, and the corporatists, lobbying groups, and conspirators are just opportunistic infections that take advantage of the situation. What do you call them all together? Still just a disease; the disease complex of monopoly. Take away the monopoly and all such groups are relegated back to their natural level of power and feasibility, which in the competitive environment of a free market is fleating or non-existent.
by Chuck Giancana
I found this book very enlightening about the JFK assassination and other events of the time.
Also about how presidents are elected.
My humble blog
It's easy to refute an argument if you first misrepresent it. William Keizer