I'm getting married next year intend to have kids in the next two years or so and am seriously considering homeschooling; however my fiancee isn't too keen to put it midly. My main reason for considering is that even the private schools ape the government schools so consequently kids aren't taught to think. Unsuprisingly my fiancee's main criticism is that they'll end up as social retards. So if anyone can link me articles, debates etc or just chip in on the relative merits of either institutional system it'd be much appreciated.
What would be of great interest would be if anyone has done a historical analysis on the social interactions of children in particular before mass schooling (pre- 1850 or so)
Btw I'm over in the UK.
Edit- I don't think homeschooling necessarily produces social retards. The most pursuasive form of the argument though is that in the days before mass schooling a diverse socialisation was possible however with mass schooling a lot of peers are out of reach and firms are not used to having young observers.
The atoms tell the atoms so, for I never was or will but atoms forevermore be.
Yours sincerely,
Physiocrat
If you are in the fascist police state of UK, I suggest avoid sending your kid to school.
Surely you know that school will ultimately involves hours of indoctrination in "multiculturalism" and religious devotion to the state's fine solutions to the fictional fantasy problem of "global warming and climate change".
If you are a white family, they will choke his neck down with white guilt and make him feel bad for all the endless wrongdoings of his ancestors, until he feels that he is essentially a bad person for being white, and can not find repentance unless he subscribes to the state's pro-minority policies, so that he can one day grow up to become an employer who will deliberately employ minorities as a part of his firm's "diversity policy".
Your son will grow up to know less of mathematics, history, Shakespeare, and the sciences, and will know more about enivoronmental issues and the need for global governance.
Perhaps I exaggerate, so take me with a grain of salt.
Have you considered a Montesorri school?
I cannot properly comment on homeschooling. I was schooled as such for 2 years, but there were other reasons for why it was unpleasent.
In general, however, I must stress the importance of social interaction of humans in general. We are social creatures. Speaking and interacting with like minded individuals is one of the greatest joys we can encounter. And, simply put, being able to vent and bounce ideas off other minds is quite helpful. There are homeschooling groups that may provide such groups that the child may go to when they schedule activities.
Basically, just make sure your child has opportunities to make some friends and talk with people his age.
"Thats no law, thats just a sword. Happens I got one too"
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/homeschooling-arch.html
That is the homeschooling archives on lewrockwell.com. There is a lot of useful information there. Homeschooling is actually superior to formal schooling in regard to the social life of your child. While children in formal school will interact almost exclusively with those their own age, homeschooled children can interact with the whole range of age groups.
Here is the article on the child's social life: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/zysk1.html
First, don't write off British private schooling too readily. Speaking from my own experience, my private school (primary and secondary) education were very into the 'classical education' (Latin, maths, sciences, philosophy, religious studies, languages, English literature/drama…). Both schools emphasised the individual and trumpeted the 'do-it-yourself' attitude –– not slavish reliance on handouts, government or anyone. They certainly had no interest in churning out 'lever-pullers', I'll say…
Then again, it depends on the schools you look at, and perhaps curriculums have changed since the early nineties when I was at that stage myself.
Fees might be an issue, especially since so many private schools are going bankrupt as a consequence of the 'education bubble' that rode on the back of the housing one…
Second, I have a cousin who is now twenty one. He was homeschooled by his mother and anyone she could hire for tuition (and so on). He took the standard exams at local colleges to get the piece of paper the government demands and even went on to university. He was in a dizzying amount of clubs (probably dropped a few by now), plays musical instruments and is a football (soccer) fanatic. He's also been in employment since being fourteen or fifteen, I recall.
It's highly unlikely your child will be socially inept, unless you never let him out of the house until he's eighteen, I suppose. Would you really do that?
There isn't quite so much stigma attached to homeschooling in the UK anymore, but it requires much more dedication and commitment from the parents, in no uncertain terms. If you're honestly prepared for it I'd advocate homeschooling and, failing that, a private day school (if you find a suitable one).
Ludwig von Mises: "We must see conditions as they really are, not as we want them to be."
Physiocrat:Unsuprisingly my fiancee's main criticism is that they'll end up as social retards.
I'm a social retard, going to school didn't fix that. If you are a nerd aka smarter than a greater ape, you will be a social retard because you will be outcast. If your kid isn't a nerd he won't be a social retard no matter how hard you try to make him one, he'll play sports etc. School teaches socialism not socialization.
Physiocrat: I'm getting married next year intend to have kids in the next two years or so and am seriously considering homeschooling; however my fiancee isn't too keen to put it midly. My main reason for considering is that even the private schools ape the government schools so consequently kids aren't taught to think. Unsuprisingly my fiancee's main criticism is that they'll end up as social retards. So if anyone can link me articles, debates etc or just chip in on the relative merits of either institutional system it'd be much appreciated. What would be of great interest would be if anyone has done a historical analysis on the social interactions of children in particular before mass schooling (pre- 1850 or so) Btw I'm over in the UK.
Being home schooled doesn't mean being locked inside your home all the time. There are plenty of opportunities for a home schooled child to interact with other kids. There private sports leagues, and organizations for other activities that bring kids together.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
As far as I can tell the kids who come out of public school are the social retards.
Kids who were raised around adults of multiple ages, and who enjoyed socialization under adult supervision, are much better equipped to deal with real life social situations.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
Stranger: As far as I can tell the kids who come out of public school are the social retards. Kids who were raised around adults of multiple ages, and who enjoyed socialization under adult supervision, are much better equipped to deal with real life social situations.
Yeah, you'd be surprised at how many Emos are in public schools. Plus, there's an enormous amount of battery, sexual assault, theft, drug use, and other crimes that go on in school, especially public school.
Physiocrat: I'm getting married next year intend to have kids in the next two years or so and am seriously considering homeschooling; however my fiancee isn't too keen to put it midly. My main reason for considering is that even the private schools ape the government schools so consequently kids aren't taught to think. Unsuprisingly my fiancee's main criticism is that they'll end up as social retards.
We initially planned to homeschool our boys but the sheer exhaustion at the end of each day was more than my wife could handle.
Physiocrat: Unsuprisingly my fiancee's main criticism is that they'll end up as social retards
Unsuprisingly my fiancee's main criticism is that they'll end up as social retards
Healthy social development isn't exclusive to state institutions, in fact it's non-existent within them. Histrionics there are common, and they stem from petty quarrels by emotional basket cases and bigots. Nothing good can come out vegetating in a musty classroom for thirteen years surrounded by people with borderline personality disorder. They are an environment of immaturity, period.
Considering the juvenile delinquency that is rampant in the UK, that is the last place I would consider school for anything.
Physiocrat: So if anyone can link me articles, debates etc or just chip in on the relative merits of either institutional system it'd be much appreciated.
So if anyone can link me articles, debates etc or just chip in on the relative merits of either institutional system it'd be much appreciated.
"There is considerable evidence linking compulsory attendance laws with the growing problem of juvenile delinquency, particularly m frustrated older children Thus, Stinchcombe found that rebellious and delinquent behavior is "largely a reaction to the school itself", and the British Crowther Committee found that when in 1947 the minimum school-leaving age was raised by the government from fourteen to fifteen, there was an immediate and sharp increase in the delinquencies committed by the newly incarcerated fourteen-year-olds."
I'm being home schooled right now. 2 years ago I was in public school. I learn 10x as much now, and have found to enjoy learning (where as in school I didn't). Though, I was in a public school.Not private.
And to the social retard thing, I hear that argument a lot. I don't notice any difference between my social life in home schooling and public/private school. Still go out with friends and have a social life. It's up to how you're children actually are. I don't believe home schooling really affects how one behaves socially.
I guess it's somewhat up to how you're children are. I was to easily distracted in school by to many things and could never really care about learning. Though as I've found through friends, even when they get good grades, they don't really want to independently learn, which I've found, is 10x better for me.
Daily packing your kid off to an immersive formal school is tantamount to an abdication of parenthood.
If I could add another benefit to homeschooling that is not often mentioned: the education benefit to the parents. If you take responsibility for your own child's education, the result will be that everything you learned through the school years will be presented to you again, as you teach your child. I was speaking with another member of our homeschooling association, and he was talking about the periodic table of elements, and having to re-learn them. I am teaching history to my daughter, and am learning some things (about the Pilgrims and other early settlers) I either didn't learn the first time around, or have forgotten along the way--and I'm a history major!
I'm far from old enough for kids now
But if I ever do have children I was considering half and half i.e. sending them to a "normal" school for half a day, and teaching them myself (or having a partner teach them) for the other half.
This way they can socialise with kids their age, and won't be completely "left out", but will also actually learn something.
The difference between libertarianism and socialism is that libertarians will tolerate the existence of a socialist community, but socialists can't tolerate a libertarian community.
I'll attempt to answer everyone in turn. But first my comment about social retardation wasn't to mean an endorsement of the statement that homeshcooling produces social retards but that it is an accurate description of my fiancee's position; I actually have great sympathy to the porposition that schooling is a totally artifical environment which harms the childs development.
Prateek Sanjay,
It's true that Britain is an police state who's schools spouts politically correct doctrines which is only getting worse. I have to thank my mother, a standard conservative type, for encouraging independent reading and my interest in political issues. One of my main reasons for my interest in heterodox schooling methods is that I generally loathed school even though I did pretty well at it.
DarkCataylst,
I've heard of the Montesorri school but know little about them.
Alex,
I'm with you on the importance of social interaction. And to Twisted I'm a bona fide geek and I don't think I'm socailly retarded; all it requires is broad areas interest and to understand how people work.
Daniel,
I know Home education doesn't keep children inside all day schools do!!!
Charles Anthony,
Thanks for the heads up on the Waldorf schools; I'd never come across them before.
Capital Pumper,
Thanks for the link to For A New Liberty chapter.
Cavalier,
I didn't know about the LRC homeschool article; nice find. Also the effect on parents is also a great point; it'll give me an excuse to learn even more stuff. And on a related point it's interesting that most children actually want to learn about the world whilst most adults just want to get their leg over and it's the adults who tell the children what they must learn.
Amadeus,
Out of interest how many years were you in public school for contra home ed?
Andrew,
Over the years the private sector has become a mere extension of state schooling which can be seen by most private schools still doing the standardised national tests. Now it well be there are still some out there but unless I get a better job in the next few years, I graduated last year with an economics degree, most private schools will be more than I can afford.
Lilburne,
I read that article a while back and thoroughly agreed with it. I had the disturbing experience recently when I was walking to the train station around 8:40am and all I saw were parents of all colours and creeds pushing children into cars to be carted of to school with seemingly no thought whatsoever about what they were doing; it was a pure reflex action. It's the closest thing to seeing real zombies.
So I now have a reading list:
http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp#p119
The main work by Montesorri- any idea which one is considered to be it?
Education works by Rudolf Steiner- same as above.
The Case for Classical Christian Education by Doug Wilson
Democracy and Education by John Dewey (I'm trying to make my reading as broad as possible)
Are there any other major educational schools of thought I missed out and should read up on?
Physiocrat: Daniel, I know Home education doesn't keep children inside all day schools do!!!
I was simply giving you ammo for use against your wife. Or else why does she think that home schooling breed social retards?
As a former homeschooled student and future homeschooling parent, I can tell you that homeschooling your kids will be the single most important, significant and amazing thing that you and your wife will ever do. They are your kids; teach them yourselves. It is not hard. Simple, really.
And as far as them not being "socialized" in the public school system... brother, you don't want them "socialized!" At least not like that. True socialization means friendships and and relationship that spans generational lines. And they will never get that in school. In fact, school is anti-social both in its organization and atmosphere ("No talking! Sit down!"). Your kids will have friends (church, neighborhood, sports teams, etc.) the biggest difference will be that they are not involuntarily imprisoned with the other kids (violent inmates) on a daily basis.
I'd recommend any of the John Taylor Gatto books and "When You Rise Up" by R.C. Sproul Jr. if you are Christians. And Ron Paul wrote an outstanding article in Homeschooling Today magazine a little while back. HIs main point was that homeschooling your children is the number one way to fight statism and change the world. Good stuff.
“We ought to obey God rather than men.” -Acts 5:29.
"Slaves before God, free before all others." -Boer Motto.
SouthernHero: As a former homeschooled student and future homeschooling parent, I can tell you that homeschooling your kids will be the single most important, significant and amazing thing that you and your wife will ever do. They are your kids; teach them yourselves. It is not hard. Simple, really. And as far as them not being "socialized" in the public school system... brother, you don't want them "socialized!" At least not like that. True socialization means friendships and and relationship that spans generational lines. And they will never get that in school. In fact, school is anti-social both in its organization and atmosphere ("No talking! Sit down!"). Your kids will have friends (church, neighborhood, sports teams, etc.) the biggest difference will be that they are not involuntarily imprisoned with the other kids (violent inmates) on a daily basis. I'd recommend any of the John Taylor Gatto books and "When You Rise Up" by R.C. Sproul Jr. if you are Christians. And Ron Paul wrote an outstanding article in Homeschooling Today magazine a little while back. HIs main point was that homeschooling your children is the number one way to fight statism and change the world. Good stuff.
If you home school your children, how do you pay the bills? Does one parent have a job while the other home schools? I've always wondered parents have been able to finance home schooling their children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_method
This wikipedia article describes the method and includes a list of books at the bottom of the page.
http://www.michaelolaf.net/MONTESSORI%20and%20WALDORF.html
Since someone mentioned Waldorf, I found this article which outlines the differences between the methods.
Ask her on my behalf for a list of homeschooled social retards.
So sorry that I'm just now replying! In most homeschool families, the father is the only person earning a formal salary. However, the curriculum books can be had for cheap or free, and with so many extra hours in the day (compared to regular school) there is plenty of time for the mother and/or children to earn money and contribute. You'll find in the homeschool community a bevy of free and discounted resources passed down and around homeschooling families. The best place to get into this is through churches and other groups that have a heart for and focus on homeschoolers. When you think about the money saved (gas for the school commute, money spent otherwise on daycare, etc.) homeschooling is economically feasible, though one does need to live within their means and give up some of the finer things that two salaries might otherwise make possible. But the advantages of homeschooling are eternal and unmeasurable, far and away more important than a higher household income.
what about unschooling? I am pretty new to the idea, but it sounds interesting, anyone have any experience with it?
Quick question- does anyone know of any theorist who defends the current style and content of the public schools and universities?
Just for a an update I've read some Steiner- interesting in places profound in others but underlaid by some really odd Eastern metaphysics.
I've also added When You Rise Up by Sproul, How Children Learn by unschooler John Holt, Deschooling by Ivan Illich and For the Children's Sake by Susan Macaulay based on the ideas of Charlotte Mason and finally the Original Homeschool Series by Mason but it's 800+ pages so that won't happen for a while.
Daniel Muffinburg:If you home school your children, how do you pay the bills? Does one parent have a job while the other home schools? I've always wondered parents have been able to finance home schooling their children.
This was the whole point of the feminist movement. Two taxable incomes. 2 slaves for the state, oh and their kids.
Btw, OP epic pic.
Physiocrat:Unsuprisingly my fiancee's main criticism is that they'll end up as social retards. So if anyone can link me articles, debates etc or just chip in on the relative merits of either institutional system it'd be much appreciated.
Aaron0883 - Homeschooling and socializationhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEdN6z9jihU
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Stefan Molyneux
http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1570_philosophical_parenting_part_1.mp3http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1571_philosophical_parenting_part_2.mp3http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1573_philosophical_parenting_part_3.mp3http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1574_philosophical_parenting_part_4.mp3http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1576_parenting_part_5.mp3
John Taylor Gatto
Compiled Thoughts on Schooling I - http://www.altruists.org/f484Compiled Thoughts on Schooling II - http://www.altruists.org/f485The Guerrilla Curriculum - http://www.altruists.org/f615
(more here )
The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Educationhttp://www.amazon.com/Teenage-Liberation-Handbook-School-Education/dp/0962959170
Dayna Martin: What is Unschooling?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4GyDc8SInw&fmt=18
School Sucks Podcasthttp://schoolsucks.podomatic.com/
Thanks for the links Nielsio that'll give me even more to go from. I'm especially interested in what Molyneux has to say.
Physiocrat: Unsuprisingly my fiancee's main criticism is that they'll end up as social retards.
You can use me as a counterexample of someone who went through the public school process and has been damaged from all that wonderful "socialization" that people fawn over. I suffer from social anxiety disorder and major depression, which is not a very healthy thing to have. You see, dealing with people at all is a very difficult process for me; even something so simple as going to a restaurant has caused me to have a panic attack. I was a social outcast in public schools who has, for years of his life, had no friends at all. In fact, for some time, I not only had no friends but was actively harassed because A) I had a different accent B) I had different religious beliefs C) I wasn't into sports at all D) I love computers. Going to the overlords didn't help at all; I was told that they had good test scores, so obviously no one was threatening me bodily harm for so much as talking to anyone else. Obviously. In fact, *I* was the problem for taking up too much of his time.
Let's also talk about moving to a new public school in a different state. Oh, you took that history class in 8th grade? Well, we can't accept that, even though you took the second part to it in 9th grade. So you'll have to take it all over again. Oh, looks like that means you can't have any language classes this year. Too bad. Hmm, looks like you didn't have the same science in 9th grade that we had, so we'll have to make you take that. We'll also make you take all of our retarded standardized tests. What, you passed the test for both histories with a perfect score on them? Too bad, take the class anyways. We will also make you take PE again, because we suck at reading transcripts and can't realize you've already taken the required number already. At least you'll get driver's ed. What, you already have your learner's and have been driving a lot? Too bad. You see, by crossing the invisible line into the state you magically become too immature to drive. All that driving experience is imaginary. We won't even get into the school's failure with security cameras and vandalism on my truck....
Nielsio:Public school turns people into social retards. Anyone who's ever gone to one should know this.
Except for social retards.
Its all an issue of communiction; the basic is just speaking and interacting with people now this could be done by just going into town and saying thanks to the bus driver, speaking to the shop assistant. The next is actually chatting to people this can be done from the stranger in the street to your best friend. The next is chatting via phone (so non-physical interaction). After that it is correspndance which used to be paper and pen, now its emails, a more personal form is texting and now is social networks like facebook. Its all a matter of mindset. I got my job because someone i knew who i hadnt spoken to in over a year post a facebook status asking anyone if they were interested. It was actually the dream job that ive wanted for so long. Even though me and him didnt know each other that well, we are now speaking to each other like good mates. It is how it happens.
For me school does things in halves; it is only have good at teaching children and half good at devolping social skills. Children are contantly told to stop talking, alot of children dont do homework because they do actually have a (social) LIFE!! Also school puts them in a very artifical environment of being around alot of people the same age, when in real life does that happen?? In a tribal society people from all ages learn from each other and it is alot more beneficial.
Now there is a danger that they could turn into vegetables sitting in front of a computer screen looking at a load of thumbnails, thinking that that is their social life. NO. Like writing letters, sending emails, texting, chatting on the phone, using facebook, these all ENRICH your social lives, they are not your actual social lives. Your social lives is the actual direct interaction with other people. The issue with virtual communities becomes interesting one at this point but i wont go into it. Ok, so how can they interact with people and meet people if they are not in school, and people that they could meet are in school?? Well that is the only thing that school could be said is good for (but only if you look past the other crap they have to put up with like learning to be submissive to authority and learning about things they dont need to know), however as i said before im still thinking it through. Anything active like sports is a good way of meeting people but you dont even need to go to sports clubs; i used to skateboard and after a while at the skatepark you see the same faces and after a while you just get chatting to them and you become friends and hang out and you might go off elsewhere and do things and its all part of making friends. Actually one thing i have noticed schools do is that once pupils make friends they have a tendancy to stick together and have their own little in-groups and it makes it ery difficult to become a part of those groups if you are "approaching from the outside". They become centred around their group throughout their school life and if they lose that group for watever reason like going to different Unis then they relise that they wernt the best friends after all and have to make other close friends. In that time they could have been under-achieving at school because of there peer influences. The unschooling mindset is great for families that move about the country or indeed the world. Putting children into schools after the children have made there friends and developed there little in groups is very hard on children, because they become socially isolated, MORE isolated than if they were to stay at home. So give them a mobile, let them have internet access and let them go out. Social capital is just as impotant as their intellectual capital. Just remeber it is how you bring them up aswell that will determine how sociable they are. (I would just like to apologies for my bad grammar and spelling but im in a rush)
peachmat:Like writing letters, sending emails, texting, chatting on the phone, using facebook, these all ENRICH your social lives, they are not your actual social lives.
Enrichment is opinion. Unschooling seems to ultimately still accept that there is One True Way as written in the Holy Scriptures and all else must be banished from the Earth.
Caley Mckibbin: Enrichment is opinion. Unschooling seems to ultimately still accept that there is One True Way as written in the Holy Scriptures and all else must be banished from the Earth.
Has anyone read any books on Unschooling? I've just checked for it on Amazon and there's loads of them. Recommendations please!!!!
I went to public school and still ended up a social retard !
just get your kids into sports n stuff, tbh i'm having the same debate with my girlfriend, just put your foot down lol.
Physiocrat: Has anyone read any books on Unschooling? I've just checked for it on Amazon and there's loads of them. Recommendations please!!!!
I've read a few. "Dumbing Us Down" by JT Gatto is a devastating critique of government schooling. "Teach Your Own" by John Holt and "How Children Learn At Home" by Alan Thomas are both good, practical books. I've got "Weapons of Mass Instruction" by JT Gatto as well, but I haven't read it yet.
Thanks Nielsio for providing that list of resources. The videos by Dayna Martin are very good.
Government Explained 2: The Special Piece of Paper
Law without Government
peachmat: peachmat:Like writing letters, sending emails, texting, chatting on the phone, using facebook, these all ENRICH your social lives, they are not your actual social lives. Caley Mckibbin: Enrichment is opinion. Unschooling seems to ultimately still accept that there is One True Way as written in the Holy Scriptures and all else must be banished from the Earth. Im not sure I understand you. Are you referring to the fact that unschooling rejects all other types of education in favour of it own education philosophy???
No. It kowtows to the prevailing doctrine that everyone should know x and do y.
The key thing with homeschooling is to find other homeschoolers so you and your kids aren't isolated. There are local groups for homeschoolers. Find them. Try to recruit others with small kids to join too.A key advantage of homeschooling is the opportunity for children to be part of the community. They can interact with people of different ages - adults and children. Older children are perfectly capable of taking care of younger children, and can assist the adults. (Apparently this how one room schoolhouses were run - delegation of authority.) Kids can be taken to see the real world in action. Also having connections with other families can help with the time burdens. Also resources like text books can be shared, advice can be sought, etc. Sudbury Valley schools are good. Definitely read how they do things - children follow their own pace. Even if they don't choose to learn to read for a while that's fine. When they they'll be so in to it they'll do well. (This is especially true of math - it isn't hard but kids don't like it so it take forever to learn.)http://www.sudval.org/There are many great education articles on that site.I also wonder about any program whereby the parent is too involved in the schooling. Part of it should be self discovery, the child working on things, etc.If you want a curriculum for kids where they can teach themselves - see thishttp://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/It is very science focused.School is not necessarily bad if we believe in the division of labor.Definitely google John Taylor Gatto if you start to doubt that schools are dangerous places to send kids.With proper management both parents can be freed up to earn money. The older the kids get too the more independent they'll be. The first 5 years most kids aren't in school. The second 5 years kids go to school. But by the time they're 10 kids are pretty much able to manage on their own for extended periods. They may look too small, but they're actually quite capable. I remember at that age we were able to have discussions about the advantages of public and private school.So basically you're not necessarily adding that much to your workload by homeschooling. It all depends on how you do it. Private tutoring is great - but often the best way for kids to learn will be through reading and working things out on their own. Listening to a teacher lecture may or may not be effective. If they have questions your can help or help them figure out how to find answers. As you get older no one is there is answer your questions anyway - you have to do research and figure it out using your head.