http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Opinion/062806-2009-12-16-please-enslave-me.htm
Guy A: "Hey buddy, isn't that your car over there?" Guy B: "Yeah. So?" Guy A: "So someone's breaking into it! Look!" Guy B: "Well, that's the price I pay to live in a civilized country." Guy A: "Huh? Now he's hot-wiring it. You just gonna stand there?" Guy B: "I'm willing to contribute to this great society we live in." Guy A: "What are you talking about? You're being robbed!" Guy B: "Don't be silly. It's not robbery. It's the will of the people." Guy A: "What people? Aren't you the one who paid for the car?" Guy B: "Yeah, but the guy who's taking it is serving the common good." Guy A: "How does that guy stealing your car help the common good?" Guy B: "Well, I trust he'll do useful things with my car." Guy A: "Weren't you going to do useful things with it?" Guy B: "Yes, but if we each just used our own stuff, there would be chaos!" Guy A: "Well, you can trade stuff, but that guy just stole your car!!" Guy B: "No he didn't. By living on this block I agreed to lose my car." Guy A: "So anyone can swipe your car, and you don't mind?" Guy B: "Don't be silly! Only the local carjacker can do it." Guy A: "So whoever decides to be a carjacker is allowed to rob you?" Guy B: "Well, if I don't like it, I can try to appoint a new local carjacker." Guy A: "What would be the point of that? The new guy would still steal your car!" Guy B: "Yes, but he would be representing me while stealing my car." Guy A: "What does that mean?! How does a thief represent you?" Guy B: "Because I can ask him to do good things with my car." Guy A: "And will he listen to you, and do what you want?" Guy B: "Well, so far they never have. But I keep trying." Guy A: "Why would you even try?" Guy B: "You have to participate. Otherwise you can't complain." Guy A: "Yes I can! I'm not the one claiming that I should be robbed!" Guy B: "You have to work within the system." Guy A: "What system? The system made up by the carjackers?" Guy B: "Of course. It's the civilized thing to do." Guy A: "Why not oppose carjacking altogether?" Guy B: "Don't be silly. Every town has to have some carjacking." Guy A: "So you're just going to keep putting up with being robbed?" Guy B: "It's not robbery. The carjackers have my implied consent to do it." Guy A: "What? You told them they could take it?" Guy B: "No, but by living here, that counts as me giving them permission." Guy A: "Who says so?" Guy B: "The carjackers. They say being here counts as agreeing to be robbed." Guy A: "And you believe them?!" Guy B: "Look, if you don't like being robbed, leave my neighborhood!" Guy A: "But I'm saying that you shouldn't be robbed!" Guy B: "Yes I should, you wacko, fringe kook! Now go away!"
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
Very clever. Would read again.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
lol... i really liked that.
Lol, nice.
Someone should post this on reddit (and share the link).
I thought that was really well done.
phrizek: Someone should post this on reddit (and share the link).
This. Someone think of a really catchy title. Also, make it a self-post and include the text in the OP comment. (That guy's website will not fly there.)
Why anarchy fails
AJ: phrizek: Someone should post this on reddit (and share the link). This. Someone think of a really catchy title. Also, make it a self-post and include the text in the OP comment. (That guy's website will not fly there.)
The Social Carjack.
My personal Anarcho-Capitalist flag. The symbol in the center stands for "harmony" and "protection"-- I'm hoping to illustrate the bond between order/justice and anarchy.
On reddit, there are ways to phrase the title so that people will click, and also so that people who would usually kneejerk respond against it will have an extra measure of tolerance. A little comedy and/or sarcasm also helps. I wish I knew how to craft the magic formula. It's a valuable skill for getting eyeballs.
Here's a few suggestions:
"How government works"
"My politician carjacked me and I'm totally cool with it!"
"Help! My representative jacked my car!"
"Barack Obama jacked my car"
...etc. I think sensationalistic/preposterous titles work best.
I liked "I'm allowed to rob you" even more.
Love it
bloomj31: Very clever. Would read again.
But I'm guessing.... you're still a statist?
I think it could be as low as 1% active withdrawal rate to catalyze a new revolution.
A Voluntaryist in a Socialist Land
Spideynw: http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Opinion/062806-2009-12-16-please-enslave-me.htm Guy A: "Hey buddy, isn't that your car over there?" Guy B: "Yeah. So?" Guy A: "So someone's breaking into it! Look!" Guy B: "Well, that's the price I pay to live in a civilized country." Guy A: "Huh? Now he's hot-wiring it. You just gonna stand there?" Guy B: "I'm willing to contribute to this great society we live in." Guy A: "What are you talking about? You're being robbed!" Guy B: "Don't be silly. It's not robbery. It's the will of the people." Guy A: "What people? Aren't you the one who paid for the car?" Guy B: "Yeah, but the guy who's taking it is serving the common good." Guy A: "How does that guy stealing your car help the common good?" Guy B: "Well, I trust he'll do useful things with my car." Guy A: "Weren't you going to do useful things with it?" Guy B: "Yes, but if we each just used our own stuff, there would be chaos!" Guy A: "Well, you can trade stuff, but that guy just stole your car!!" Guy B: "No he didn't. By living on this block I agreed to lose my car." Guy A: "So anyone can swipe your car, and you don't mind?" Guy B: "Don't be silly! Only the local carjacker can do it." Guy A: "So whoever decides to be a carjacker is allowed to rob you?" Guy B: "Well, if I don't like it, I can try to appoint a new local carjacker." Guy A: "What would be the point of that? The new guy would still steal your car!" Guy B: "Yes, but he would be representing me while stealing my car." Guy A: "What does that mean?! How does a thief represent you?" Guy B: "Because I can ask him to do good things with my car." Guy A: "And will he listen to you, and do what you want?" Guy B: "Well, so far they never have. But I keep trying." Guy A: "Why would you even try?" Guy B: "You have to participate. Otherwise you can't complain." Guy A: "Yes I can! I'm not the one claiming that I should be robbed!" Guy B: "You have to work within the system." Guy A: "What system? The system made up by the carjackers?" Guy B: "Of course. It's the civilized thing to do." Guy A: "Why not oppose carjacking altogether?" Guy B: "Don't be silly. Every town has to have some carjacking." Guy A: "So you're just going to keep putting up with being robbed?" Guy B: "It's not robbery. The carjackers have my implied consent to do it." Guy A: "What? You told them they could take it?" Guy B: "No, but by living here, that counts as me giving them permission." Guy A: "Who says so?" Guy B: "The carjackers. They say being here counts as agreeing to be robbed." Guy A: "And you believe them?!" Guy B: "Look, if you don't like being robbed, leave my neighborhood!" Guy A: "But I'm saying that you shouldn't be robbed!" Guy B: "Yes I should, you wacko, fringe kook! Now go away!"
ROTFL!!!!!
"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."
NonZeroSum: I think it could be as low as 1% active withdrawal rate to catalyze a new revolution.
It could be. I would love to see it tried.
Conza88: But I'm guessing.... you're still a statist?
Ofcourse.
Carjackers should get a job.
bloomj31: Conza88: But I'm guessing.... you're still a statist? Ofcourse.
Pathetic.
Conza88:Pathetic.
That's not how we make progress.
liberty student: Conza88:Pathetic. That's not how we make progress.
Is progress possible with all people? Doesn't it get to a point - where it is all about them being intellectually honest? And willing to address their inner contradictions and inconsistencies? And what if they are not - then they're not open minded, or able to be persuaded... in which case, surely an exchange would be fruitless - if it wasn't for the lurkers.
What more could be said, or done to make progress? Out of the 1,000's of peoples posts directed at convincing bloom / defending the concepts he has attacked, both on this account - and his one that was banned, has there been any considerable progress?
Conza88:Is progress possible with all people?
You seem to think so, even though you keep repeating the same failed tactic, which has only resulted in frustrating yourself.
Jacob seems to be winning.
liberty student:Jacob seems to be winning.
Everybody is a winner
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
Conza88: Is progress possible with all people? Doesn't it get to a point - where it is all about them being intellectually honest? And willing to address their inner contradictions and inconsistencies? And what if they are not - then they're not open minded, or able to be persuaded... in which case, surely an exchange would be fruitless - if it wasn't for the lurkers. What more could be said, or done to make progress? Out of the 1,000's of peoples posts directed at convincing bloom / defending the concepts he has attacked, both on this account - and his one that was banned, has there been any considerable progress?
Conza, have you ever had to sell anything?
bloomj31:Conza, have you ever had to sell anything?
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
nirgrahamUK: Relevance?
Relevance?
Well, an-cap is an idea, like all things it requires selling. Have you ever sold anything?
sure, and it pays to know who you might get a sale from, and who is a lost cause
nirgrahamUK: sure, and it pays to know who you might get a sale from, and who is a lost cause
Fair enough. But how did you go about selling this idea to other converts? By calling them immoral? By telling them that everything was better when your philosophy becomes your foundation and you make your political and economic viewpoints consistent with your philosophical viewpoint?
its different strokes for different folks.
i wouldn't know where to start with you, since you seem disinclined to read scholarly works on economics and politics.. and you hold onto some quasi-mythological beliefs in the military state, american nationalism, and jewish nationalism.
I suppose if i was truly committed i would try to analyse with you just what is going on in your head when you hear the word military, and nation. but i'm not sure i personally have the stomache for it at this time in my life.
nirgrahamUK: its different strokes for different folks. i wouldn't know where to start with you, since you seem disinclined to read scholarly works on economics and politics.. and you hold onto some quasi-mythological beliefs in the military state, american nationalism, and jewish nationalism. I suppose if i was truly committed i would try to analyse with you just what is going on in your head when you hear the word military, and nation. but i'm not sure i personally have the stomache for it at this time in my life.
Lol. First of all, I do actually read a lot, whether you believe it or not. Just maybe not stuff from the same schools as you do. Right now, I'm reading Manias, Panics and Crashes by Charles P. Kinderberger and The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt. I'm still working through Mackay's Popular Delusions. I've got about six books on queue after these but I usually read two at a time. I've read Meltdown, I've read Economics In One Lesson, I've read The Road to Serfdom. I've read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead. I've read End The Fed and I've read Running on Empty. I've read Leviathan and The Prince and the Social Contract by Rousseau. I've read New Deal or Raw Deal and I've read Capitalism and Freedom. I've read Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely and I've read Mind of the Market by Shermer. I've read the Lucifer Effect by Phil Zimbardo, which has had a huge influence on me. I've read books on Israel and Judaism, books on atheism and Christianity and Islam. I've got this great book called Filters Against Folly which talks about how political and economic arguments get fused with philosophical arguments and how literate and numerate arguments often get separate from ecolate arguments.
I've got a lot of different ideas floating around in my head and they don't all click together yet. But all these people's thoughts have influenced me and continue to influence me. I want answers, but I don't think an-cap is that answer.
I just think there's more to it than "eliminate the state and make the free market truly free." And so far, the sales pitch on this site hasn't convinced me otherwise. Neither has it convinced me that my "american nationalism or jewish nationalism" or whatever is invalid or stupid.
bloomj31:I just think there's more to it than "eliminate the state and make the free market truly free."
There is. That's a strawman. If you dismiss it without understanding it, you're only displaying ignorance, not discretion. Nothing wrong with discarding ancap. I dont buy into the Rothbardian version of objective law. But if you dont understand it (and you clearly dont) then any dismissal of it is meaningless.
bloomj31:And so far, the sales pitch on this site hasn't convinced me otherwise.
I've already explained to you, the sales pitch as it is, won't ever work. You have to understand the arguments.
bloomj31:Neither has it convinced me that my "american nationalism or jewish nationalism" or whatever is invalid or stupid.
It does create an exceptionally irrational bias, which depending on how it manifests itself, may be stupid.
liberty student: bloomj31:I just think there's more to it than "eliminate the state and make the free market truly free." There is. That's a strawman. If you dismiss it without understanding it, you're only displaying ignorance, not discretion. Nothing wrong with discarding ancap. I dont buy into the Rothbardian version of objective law. But if you dont understand it (and you clearly dont) then any dismissal of it is meaningless. bloomj31:And so far, the sales pitch on this site hasn't convinced me otherwise. I've already explained to you, the sales pitch as it is, won't ever work. You have to understand the arguments. bloomj31:Neither has it convinced me that my "american nationalism or jewish nationalism" or whatever is invalid or stupid. It does create an exceptionally irrational bias, which depending on how it manifests itself, may be stupid.
Alright, which books do you want me to read? I'll go buy them, read them as soon as I can.
bloomj31:Alright, which books do you want me to read? I'll go buy them, read them as soon as I can.
Democracy, the God that Failed Hoppe
Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman
You dont have to buy them or read them. I'm not trying to sell you on anything. I only know that despite your resistance to these ideas, you cant seem to get away from us, so maybe you're more curious and open to new ideas than you let on. But either way, I will turn 10 people on to these ideas this week, so your one "conversion" is relatively meaningless to me. In fact, I can't believe these guys have invested so many posts into you. You'll either reconcile your morals with your political preferences (one way or another) or you wont. Regardless, life will continue for the rest of the human race.
liberty student: bloomj31:Alright, which books do you want me to read? I'll go buy them, read them as soon as I can. Democracy, the God that Failed Hoppe Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman You dont have to buy them or read them. I'm not trying to sell you on anything. I only know that despite your resistance to these ideas, you cant seem to get away from us, so maybe you're more curious and open to new ideas than you let on. But either way, I will turn 10 people on to these ideas this week, so your one "conversion" is relatively meaningless to me. In fact, I can't believe these guys have invested so many posts into you. You'll either reconcile your morals with your political preferences (one way or another) or you wont. Regardless, life will continue for the rest of the human race.
Alright, I'll get them. Until then, I will try to refrain from making any statements about an-cap.
liberty student: Conza88:Is progress possible with all people? You seem to think so
You seem to think so
I'd like to hope so, but I realise it is not. Someone can be shown the door, but they are the ones that have to walk through it.
liberty student:even though you keep repeating the same failed tactic
That depends on what you believe my goal was.
Winning what exactly?