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Conservative??? Most are really not, are you?...

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Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo Posted: Fri, Dec 18 2009 1:44 PM

If you think being a conservative is to be pro war, interventionists, or to be big government, you are wrong. This is mostly towards Americans. Conservatives have been looked down upon these last view years. But in reality, most people dont know what a conservative is in America. Lets try to clear some minds about conservatives now.

Pro war isnt conservative thinking. For some reason when people think of all the people that are pro war, they think of republicans. Well, yes, most republicans are pro war, but they have lost there conservative thinking. To be a real conservative, you have to believe in isolationism. Isolationism is when a country does not involve itself with other nations. And if we dont involve ourselves in other peoples' business, then we wouldnt have a reason to send troops overseas.Right?

We have to provide safety for our citizens FIRST before we go off trying to save the whole world. This is why American charities that help foreign countries piss me off. For example, when a charity asks for food to send to Africa. WHAT?! We have starving kids in America that we should be helping. Another thing that makes me furious is when people adopt in foreign countries. We have poor kids in America that need homes too. Are you just going to throw them under the bus because you rather help a kid in a foreign country? I am not being racist, I support charities to help American citizens that are Asian, Hispanic, Black, White, Muslim, whatever. I am being an isolationist and a conservative.

I'll give you in example how most, not all but most, Republicans lost their conservative way of thinking. Lets take the biggest hypocrite in the Republican party, George Bush. George Bush tripled the size of the Federal Government during his eight years in office. This is not conservative for all of you conservative bashers out there. Conservatives believe in limited government. George Bush again, declaring war on Afghanistan and sending troops to Iraq. Now at the time of 9/11 I was in support of the war (I am not going into whether 9/11 was a cover up or not. But lets assume it wasnt, for the sake of getting my point across). But this should have only been a in and out situation. We go into Afghanistan, destroy a bunch of terrorists camps, then get the hell out of there. Of course this hasnt happened and we are still in the middle east and its been eight years since 9/11. EIGHT YEARS... Afghanistan is a third world country and we are still in Afghanistan...Thats very conservative of you George Bush. (sarcasm). I could keep going about the Patriot Act, or homeland security but you should be able to get my point.

A Real conservative would be

+ A person who opposes strong Federal Government

+ A person who opposes war

+ A person that is an isolationist

Real conservative politicians in the United States are 

+ Ron Paul

+ Murray Sabrin

+ William Redpath

+ Newt Gingrich

+ Mike Gravel

+ B.J. Lawson

Thats really all that I can think of from the top of my head....Look them up study the if you want more information conservative politicians. Oh, Bob Barr too, his name just popped up in my head.  Thats all that I really want to say.

 

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VanDoodah replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 1:56 PM

Isolationism and non-interventionism are not the same thing. Isolationism combines a non-interventionist foreign policy with economic protectionism, whereas non-interventionism refers to a foreign policy opposing war and "entangling alliances", as George Washington put it.

"Conservative" is just a word, and anyone is welcome to it, including neocons, paleocons, classical liberals and the religious right.

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Stephen replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 1:57 PM

Newt Gingrich?

Bob Barr?

Are you kidding?

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Newt Gingrich is not a small government guy.

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scineram replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 1:58 PM

I am not. Neither am I an isolationist. Isolation is stupid.

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Felipe replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 2:02 PM

I hate the label of "conservative" is almost a poisoning the well fallacy by itself.

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Left wing, right wing, conservative, and liberal are all absolutly unintelligable terms. I'll stop calling those "stereotypes" that you mentioned conservative when they stop calling themselves conservative.

"Lo! I am weary of my wisdom, like the bee that hath gathered too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it." -Thus Spake Zarathustra
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Chris replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 2:09 PM

Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:

+ Newt Gingrich

+ Mike Gravel

Newt - come on, really....you are just joking around right?

Mike Gravel - didn't he support socialized medicine?

Bob Barr - voted for the Iraq war, Patriot Act, and I believe (though I may be wrong) supported the war on flowers, I mean drugs.

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Wanderer replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 2:10 PM

Newt Gingrich?  Are you serious?  He's as tyrannical as any of them.  And Isolationism is stupid.  Free trade makes everyone better off, and makes wars between countries less likely.  For instance, there is no real chance of war with Canada, Mexico, China, etc.

Periodically the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.

Thomas Jefferson

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Many of you guys are going  against my conservative speech because you guys are thinking more of Republican or Democrat.... but in reality there are conservatives in both right and left wing.  Im talking about conservative politically not socially by the way people. By that I mean they think conservative on political issue. ( limited government, war policies, the Federal Reserve). Not by social issues ( health care, minority rights.)

Someone said something about how free trade is a better way. Well free trade didn't exactly unite the United States and Iran in the 1970s. thats why Iran stopped sending oil to us and we had Cost push inflation. And you want to know why they stopped sending oil to us? because we supported the jews in Israel rather than support the muslims. If we would have kept our mouth shut and not picked sides, we wouldnt have first sent troops overseas to support the jews, and second wouldnt have experienced cost push inflation.

Newt Gingrich is too a small government type of guy. He is a big supporter of the Tea Party Movement and this is one of his quotes at a speech in New York City to prove that he supports limited government.

"If the Republicans can’t break out of being the right wing party of big government, then I think you would see a third party movement in 2012.'' - Newt Gingrich

Mike Gravel, yes he does believe in nationalizing health care. But he also believes anti war, anti tax, and term limits on Congress. So for the most part he is conservative, just because one of his views is liberal doesnt that he isnt conservative.

Bob Barr i could understand why some of you dont consider him conservative but in his most recent activities he has been very conservative, and i think he is going to stay that way.

 

Wow, i think im done explaining myself now...

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Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:
Newt Gingrich is too a small government type of guy. He is a big supporter of the Tea Party Movement and this is one of his quotes at a speech in New York City to prove that he supports limited government.

"If the Republicans can’t break out of being the right wing party of big government, then I think you would see a third party movement in 2012.'' - Newt Gingrich

You know, George Bush said conservative-sounding things before he was president. He must be a conservative, small government type of guy too.

All sarcasm aside, paying lip service to a group A does not mean you are part of said group.

 

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
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Saan replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 7:06 PM

I don't care what labels you plaster on me or anyone. Humans label things.  Just don't try and force me to wear your label, I won't force you to wear mine. 

 

 Criminals, there ought to be a law.

Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more.   Bon Scott.

 

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I think conservatism is finding its old regime roots of established autocracy, paternalism, mercantilism and love of marshal values.  Perhaps we are seeing the reaction of two groups in the conservative movement, the classical liberal pessimists who were pushed out of liberalism due to the take over of socialist elements and the actual ancien regime of conservatism. Overall, I think classical liberals are going to be pushed back into the title of libertarian.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Newt Gingrich took part in Tea Party protests...so he is also taking action and not just spitting out crap

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way to be a drama queen...

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A little charity work here, a little charity work there, for good measure.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
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bloomj31 replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 7:55 PM

The word conservative means whatever the people calling themselves want it to mean.  I think the word has gotten stretched so far to describe so many different ideas (in particular the isolationist, anti-immigration nationalism) that it was never meant to encompass (or maybe that I don't identify with despite considering myself to be very conservative at one point) that the word has almost entirely lost meaning to me. 

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Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:

Newt Gingrich took part in Tea Party protests...so he is also taking action and not just spitting out crap

The GOP is dying, they are trying to take over the message of the Tea party and change it into a show of GOP revival.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:

Newt Gingrich took part in Tea Party protests...so he is also taking action and not just spitting out crap

 

Gingrich is a total phony and a big-government hack. Gingrich uses the lame "tea party" protests to gain favor with "conservative" groups. 

"I'll give you in example how most, not all but most, Republicans lost their conservative way of thinking. Lets take the biggest hypocrite in the Republican party, George Bush. George Bush tripled the size of the Federal Government during his eight years in office. This is not conservative for all of you conservative bashers out there. Conservatives believe in limited government. George Bush again, declaring war on Afghanistan and sending troops to Iraq. Now at the time of 9/11 I was in support of the war (I am not going into whether 9/11 was a cover up or not. But lets assume it wasnt, for the sake of getting my point across). But this should have only been a in and out situation. We go into Afghanistan, destroy a bunch of terrorists camps, then get the hell out of there. Of course this hasnt happened and we are still in the middle east and its been eight years since 9/11. EIGHT YEARS... Afghanistan is a third world country and we are still in Afghanistan...Thats very conservative of you George Bush. (sarcasm). I could keep going about the Patriot Act, or homeland security but you should be able to get my point."

And Gingrich would be different than Bush? Read this piece, titled "Bush and Lincoln", by Gingrich in 2006. He sounds more hawkish than Bush; thus, by your criteria, Gingrich is NOT a "real" conservative. Bob Barr is a faux libertarian who also beats the war drum, so he is not a "real" conservative. Fortunately, I do not recognize the other names on the list, other than Ron Paul. 

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Laughing Man:

Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:

Newt Gingrich took part in Tea Party protests...so he is also taking action and not just spitting out crap

The GOP is dying, they are trying to take over the message of the Tea party and change it into a show of GOP revival.

The GOP has seen worst days, its just the ebb, and flow of American politics. The GOP just happens to be in a slump right now, but give them another four years, and they'll be back in the limelight.

 

Abstract liberty, like other mere abstractions, is not to be found.

          - Edmund Burke

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Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:

 

Mike Gravel, yes he does believe in nationalizing health care. But he also believes anti war, anti tax, and term limits on Congress. So for the most part he is conservative, just because one of his views is liberal doesnt that he isnt conservative.

By the way, how can a person believe in nationalizing health care and still be anti-tax? This stance seems contradictory.

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richie2044:
By the way, how can a person believe in nationalizing health care and still be anti-tax? This stance seems contradictory.

Lots of Doublethink Juice.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
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laminustacitus:
The GOP has seen worst days, its just the ebb, and flow of American politics. The GOP just happens to be in a slump right now, but give them another four years, and they'll be back in the limelight.

It's possible. However, some actions would actually need to take place to change the mentality toward the GOP.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Blueline976:
Lots of Doublethink Juice.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Praetyre replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 11:02 PM

richie2044:
By the way, how can a person believe in nationalizing health care and still be anti-tax? This stance seems contradictory.

Well, there's always inflation.

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Nitroadict replied on Fri, Dec 18 2009 11:31 PM

laminustacitus:

Laughing Man:

Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:

Newt Gingrich took part in Tea Party protests...so he is also taking action and not just spitting out crap

The GOP is dying, they are trying to take over the message of the Tea party and change it into a show of GOP revival.

The GOP has seen worst days, its just the ebb, and flow of American politics. The GOP just happens to be in a slump right now, but give them another four years, and they'll be back in the limelight.

 

IMO, the GOP might eventually become irrelevant (possibly due to the eventual emergence of a 'new' New Right, which has been slowly gaining in internet popularity in recent months on reddit, as well as passive references in other places), or even renamed, but you can already tell from the reactionary attitude of the media, people who consume said media, & other politicians that the stage is being prepped for an eventual possible GOP reactionary "victory".


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chloe732 replied on Sat, Dec 19 2009 1:12 AM

Are you trying to defend conservatism? If so, read your post again. It seems more of an indictment than a defense. You and I were in complete agreement about a year ago. I even considered myself an "independent conservative", not a "Republican". I bashed the Republican Party for not being "conservative". In fact, I wrote letters to "my" U.S. Senators and "my" U.S. Representative in Congress! YES! (I thought) I WILL WRITE LETTERS TO TELL THEM HOW I FEEL! THEY WILL CHANGE! THEY WILL SEE THE LIGHT! WE WILL RECLAIM THE HIGH GROUND OF CONSERVATISM FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY! Well, all that happened was that I began to realize how foolish I was to waste my time on such efforts.

Look, this is the reality: The Republican Party (RP) has not abandoned conservatism. The RP is exactly what it always was, and always will be. In fact, this is by design. It has not been "high jacked" by RINO's. No. The Republican Party is EXACTLY what it intended to be: The Big Government Party. Look at what it has DONE, look at your own examples of what it has done. G.W. Bush was their two term President of U.S. He was their de facto "leader". I voted for G.W. Bush twice! Ha! What a fool I was! I contend G.W. Bush represents the "essence" of the Republican Party. Isn't it becoming more clear now?

Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:
We have to provide safety for our citizens FIRST before we go off trying to save the whole world.

How does government provide safety for our citizens? Then, do you imply that after this is accomplished, we should go off and save the world, or do we not save the world at all?

Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:
This is why American charities that help foreign countries piss me off. For example, when a charity asks for food to send to Africa. WHAT?! We have starving kids in America that we should be helping. Another thing that makes me furious is when people adopt in foreign countries. We have poor kids in America that need homes too. Are you just going to throw them under the bus because you rather help a kid in a foreign country?

What difference does it make if charities send food to Africa? Why should that disturb you? Why are there starving kids in America after the U.S. Congress has indebted the U.S. Taxpayer to the tune of $12 trillion, growing at $2 trillion per year? Isn't it puzzling that the government still hasn't "provided safety for our citizens" as you mention, and there are still starving kids? (Mmm, something fishy is going on here, but I'll leave that up to you to figure out what it is.  HINT: Keep reading Mises.org for the clues...)  Along the same lines, what does adopting children from anywhere have to do with "conservatism".  Would conservatism propose to prevent these adoptions by force of law? You mention that America has poor kids; again I ask, what was the $12 trillion used for? It's puzzling, isn't it?

Please don't take my somewhat sarcastic comments personally; I invested many years supporting the Republican Party. You are still young, there is time for you to realize that the two party system is a mirage. So, I offer free of charge the lesson I learned after being on this Earth twice as long as you have been; In the U.S., there is only one party, the Big Government Party. Two parties are required in order for those in power to obtain what they call "legitimacy". Notice there is not "one party" (the people will suspect dictatorship), and there are not more than two parties (too difficult to play the game). There are exactly two parties. Now, the purpose of the Democratic Party is to 1) Implement socialism, and 2) enrage Republican voters so they show up at the polls (remember, "legitimacy", there must be strong voter turn out no matter who wins). The purpose of the Republican Party is to 1) Expand the Empire, and 2) enrage Democrat voters so they go to the polls (voter turn out, legitimacy). You see, this is the One Party System.  When you think about how both parties behave, isn't it all beginning to make sense now?

"The market is a process." - Ludwig von Mises, as related by Israel Kirzner.   "Capital formation is a beautiful thing" - Chloe732.

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chloe732:
Look, this is the reality: The Republican Party (RP) has not abandoned conservatism. The RP is exactly what it always was, and always will be. In fact, this is by design. It has not been "high jacked" by RINO's. No. The Republican Party is EXACTLY what it intended to be: The Big Government Party. Look at what it has DONE, look at your own examples of what it has done. G.W. Bush was their two term President of U.S.

I would say conservatism implies big government. Yes it sounds strange but step back and think about what we are talking about here. Establishing a moral code beyond basic rights concepts. Establishing the paternal family as the basis for familial society. Establishing marshal values. [ I think ] establishing a disregard for the actions of big corporations. I'm not saying they are completely anti-free market, in some sense they are, but there seems to be a projection of 'Well progressives and socialists are anti-corporation...we're not socialists or progressives..therefore we are pro-corporation' which can rapidly degrade into a mentality of acceptance for any actions taken. You are exactly right though, the GOP was formed out of the Whig Party. This party was established on protectionism, mercantilism, evangelical values, and an unwavering faith in the centralization of government that could be utilized to bring about post-millenialist values. It is not as if the religious right just suddenly popped up out of nowhere, it was always there.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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chloe732 replied on Sat, Dec 19 2009 10:55 AM

Laughing Man:

Here is an interpretation the "Mary Poppins" reply. For those of you that "got it", skip this reply. For those of you, like me, who were slow on the uptake, here is what I believe it means:

Mary Poppins is the Republican Party. The "children" are the Republican voters who are unhappy that the Republican Party has abandoned "Conservatism". The "sugar" is Conservatism. The "medicine" is Statism.

So, there we have it. Mary Poppins tells the children that "a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down...IN A MOST DELIGHTFUL WAY!"

The analogy, I think, is spot on.

 

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chloe732 replied on Sat, Dec 19 2009 11:09 AM

Laughing Man:
I would say conservatism implies big government.

I agree.  I did not intend to imply that "Conservatism" was something of value that should be defended. 

"The market is a process." - Ludwig von Mises, as related by Israel Kirzner.   "Capital formation is a beautiful thing" - Chloe732.

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Spideynw replied on Sat, Dec 19 2009 1:00 PM

Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo:
We have to provide safety for our citizens

Do you work for the government?  Or when you say "we" do you mean all the people in a geographic location?  If it is the latter, could you please provide some evidence showing I have any responsibility to provide anything to anyone?  Or was this just a Freudian slip and you meant to say "the government" instead of "we"?

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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JAlanKatz replied on Sat, Dec 19 2009 6:38 PM

I don't know what  "real conservative" is.  No definition has been offered that has wide support.  What make this a useful word?

I think the most reasonable definition of a conservative would be to link it to the great who opposed social mobility and loss of hierarchy during the Industrial Revolution.  This group would support limited government and free markets, so long as it was superimposed on an institutional structure of cartelized banking and corporatism.  This is exactly what the GOP tends to support today when it is "sticking to principles."  They shiver at the thought of harming that institutional structure.  The party was formed to promote Whig type ideas under a new name, so if the GOP wants to go "back to its origin" it should support Obama's "shovel ready" nonsense, and warfare.  In short, I have no idea what a conservative is, and I don't care.

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You said that being a conservative means being isolationist, yet then you proceed to name the likes of Murray Sabrin and BJ Lawson as conservatives. Neither are isolationists. They don't want to kill trade like the isolationists do. Also, why would you include the warmonger and dirty politician Newt Gingrich? Why would you include the socialist Mike Gravel on that list too?

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ladyattis replied on Sat, Dec 19 2009 6:52 PM

To the original poster that's trying to defend Newt Gingrich, here's a fun fact, he supported a bill that would have given inner city and under-'privileged' children laptops and computers for home use. If he's a conservative, why does he want or has wanted to spend like a drunken Democrat? 

"The power of liberty going forward is in decentralization.  Not in leaders, but in decentralized activism.  In a market process." -- liberty student

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filc replied on Sat, Dec 19 2009 7:10 PM

What exactly does it mean to be conservative? I never understood this. It always seemed like a mix of classic liberalism with arbitrary inconsistent holes filled up with nationalism. I always feel like they copy cat libertarian's or AE economic arguments at their convenience to bolster arguments on a convenience basis but never follow through with the same arguments when it addresses their cultural values.

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filc:

What exactly does it mean to be conservative? I never understood this. It always seemed like a mix of classic liberalism with arbitrary inconsistent holes filled up with nationalism. I always feel like they copy cat libertarian's or AE economic arguments at their convenience to bolster arguments on a convenience basis but never follow through with the same arguments when it addresses their cultural values.

An honest person will tell you that the term is more or less dead nowadays, and it's popular usage is typically used to identify anything that isn't liberal, another dead term, which uses conservative as a term to identity anything not liberal, which is another dead ter-

:head explodes:

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filc replied on Sat, Dec 19 2009 7:42 PM

Nitroadict:
:head explodes:

Wow that didn't take long. Let me try again. Whats the meaning of life?

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Htut replied on Sun, Dec 20 2009 9:49 AM

Hmm. Well, I suppose I'm in favor of 'isolationism', as a consequence of my rejection of the state. I would consider myself more of a social radical than anything.

“Laws: We know what they are, and what they are worth! They are spider webs for the rich and mighty, steel chains for the poor and weak, fishing nets in the hands of the government.” - Proudhon

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krazy kaju replied on Sun, Dec 20 2009 12:08 PM

filc:
What exactly does it mean to be conservative?

Conservatism is more of a philosophical movement than an ideological one. My understanding of conservatism is that it consists of protecting and defending the traditions and customs of a particular society. Thus, conservatism can vary from region to region, based on the cultures present in those regions. A Chinese conservative, for example, has completely different ideological beliefs from a German conservative.

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Saan replied on Sun, Dec 20 2009 12:15 PM

Calling yourself a conservative right now is akin to calling yourself a socialist of the nationalist variety.  The same as Liberal now is a socialist of the lenninist variety. Agree with a conservative platform partially you are nazi.  Agree with a liberal platform partially and you are a Commie.  No wonder it's so easy for liberty to slip.

 

 Criminals, there ought to be a law.

Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more.   Bon Scott.

 

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