Snowflake:Well we're sticklers for consistency.
Coherency as well.
DD5: bloomj31:If being a minarchist makes me a statist and a socialist, so be it. I stand by my convictions. And I'm sure you do and so does Ensuric. As minarchists, you support welfare for Israel, and Ensuric supports welfare for the poor (although on a small scale). Are there any other minarchists in this form who would like to add their own wishlist of Statist things to take with them? Before it goes to a vote in the minarchist legislature, where I'm sure a compromise will be met. By the way boom, what is your favorite method of taxation?
bloomj31:If being a minarchist makes me a statist and a socialist, so be it. I stand by my convictions.
And I'm sure you do and so does Ensuric.
As minarchists, you support welfare for Israel, and Ensuric supports welfare for the poor (although on a small scale).
Are there any other minarchists in this form who would like to add their own wishlist of Statist things to take with them? Before it goes to a vote in the minarchist legislature, where I'm sure a compromise will be met.
By the way boom, what is your favorite method of taxation?
National defense is the most important thing to me. I've also grown very accustomed to Federal Deposit Insurance but I know it's a pretty awful program.
I also like the government to provide roads and highways, sewers, water, sanitation, street lights, etc.
As you noted, Israel is also on the top of my list of fiscal priorities. It's the Jewish homeland, I feel it must be protected.
My favorite method of taxation? What are my options?
Also, my name is not Boom. It's Bloom. BOOM!
Esuric:Who is going to enforce the ban on FRB (100% reserve rate)? I'm just curious.
Bank runs would discourage them.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
DD5:Are there any other minarchists in this form who would like to add their own wishlist of Statist things to take with them?
Yeah I haven't really come across many claiming to be minarchists who *actually* support only a night watchman state.
Daniel Muffinburg:Bank runs would discourage them.
Bank runs only discourage underbidding the natural rate of interest, and not FRB. But I don't want to get into another FRB debate.
"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."
bloomj31: National defense is the most important thing to me.. I also like the government to provide roads and highyways, sewers, water, sanitation, street lights, etc. As you noted, Israel is also on the top of my list of fiscal priorities. It's the Jewish homeland, I feel it must be protected.
National defense is the most important thing to me..
I also like the government to provide roads and highyways, sewers, water, sanitation, street lights, etc.
Why? And doesn't it suddenly become a matter of preference exactly how much statism you have? You simply support your kind, why is this any different from the socialist or the conservative? Why couldn't the free market perform all of the above tasks better and more cheaply than the state? How do you propose stopping the state from moving out of those grounds? How do you believe that with nations and nationalism still in existence that there will be no war? Also how can you morally accept taxation for these purposes, especially when you nowhere mentioned welfare services which are for more essential to the (supposed) well being of individuals?
Esuric: Daniel Muffinburg:Bank runs would discourage them. Bank runs only discourage underbidding the natural rate of interest, and not FRB. But I don't want to get into another FRB debate.
So what are all those stories I hear of people running to the bank to take their money out because they believe that not all their money is there?
The Late Andrew Ryan: bloomj31: National defense is the most important thing to me.. I also like the government to provide roads and highyways, sewers, water, sanitation, street lights, etc. As you noted, Israel is also on the top of my list of fiscal priorities. It's the Jewish homeland, I feel it must be protected. Why? And doesn't it suddenly become a matter of preference exactly how much statism you have? You simply support your kind, why is this any different from the socialist or the conservative? Why couldn't the free market perform all of the above tasks better and more cheaply than the state? How do you propose stopping the state from moving out of those grounds? How do you believe that with nations and nationalism still in existence that there will be no war? Also how can you morally accept taxation for these purposes, especially when you nowhere mentioned welfare services which are for more essential to the (supposed) well being of individuals?
Because I think one of the reasons Hitler was able to do what he did was because the Jews didn't have anywhere to go and no one to protect them.
I believe there will always be war, there's no way to stop it. Therefore I don't concern myself with ending war entirely. I just try to keep it to a minimum.
I don't justify the taxation on moral grounds. They're going to take the money anyways, might as well go to the things I care about.
I don't care for domestic welfare because I don't really care that much for the people the money's being spent on.
So you're basing your entire pro-state belief here off of the assumption that there is no other option besides statism? Furthermore if you admit that the system is immoral and that you just want the gun to be wielded by those who you do like as opposed to those who you don't like. If this stance is taken I don't understand what justification you are providing, especially because those who want to reduce state power have succeeded soooooo much in the last two decades, and really in the last century.
Also that was when the Jews were in Germany, now they have one of the most powerful militaries in the world and are busy oppressing the Palestinians, you could say the same thing about racial minorities everywhere on earth, and why should the United States go and defend Israel and not all other nations? You have not answered as to why a free market could not address this problem, as well as why there must always be war even without nations.
bloomj31:Because I think one of the reasons Hitler was able to do what he did was because the Jews didn't have anywhere to go and no one to protect them.
Because that's what they teach the Israeli children in their socialistic schools?
Here is the antidote :- "Omnipotent government"
The Late Andrew Ryan: So you're basing your entire pro-state belief here off of the assumption that there is no other option besides statism? Furthermore if you admit that the system is immoral and that you just want the gun to be wielded by those who you do like as opposed to those who you don't like. If this stance is taken I don't understand what justification you are providing, especially because those who want to reduce state power have succeeded soooooo much in the last two decades, and really in the last century. Also that was when the Jews were in Germany, now they have one of the most powerful militaries in the world and are busy oppressing the Palestinians, you could say the same thing about racial minorities everywhere on earth, and why should the United States go and defend Israel and not all other nations? You have not answered as to why a free market could not address this problem, as well as why there must always be war even without nations.
I don't know of any better system than statism. I'm still reading Machinery of Freedom though.
I don't really care much for morality, I don't believe in God, so I think it's a toss up as to what is and isn't moral. If there were a God and he could tell us what is and isn't moral and was willing to enforce those rules, then I'd care a hell of a lot about morality.
I prefer to think in terms of self interest. What do I prefer? I prefer a state. That doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, that's just what I prefer. You may prefer something else, in which case, we can try to negotiate on it.
Reducing state power is not an easy job. But I don't know of a better option.
Could these things be provided by the market? Probably. But I don't see them being provided by the market.
Why doesn't the US need to go defend other minorities? I dunno, maybe they should. Ultimately, that call isn't going to be made by me.
O, as far as war goes, I think war is part of human nature. It will happen with or without states because someone will always covet what another has and from time to time, be willing to take it by force.
DD5: Because that's what they teach the Israeli children in their socialistic schools?
I don't know what they teach in Israeli schools.
I know that Hitler would have a harder time today trying to rid the world of Jews because Israel exists.
bloomj31:I prefer to think in terms of self interest. What do I prefer? I prefer a state. That doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, that's just what I prefer. You may prefer something else, in which case, we can try to negotiate on it.
No, you're wrong. You openly admit that you are a rent-seeker who endorses violence and theft. There's nothing more to discuss.
bloomj31:I don't really care much for morality, I don't believe in God, so I think it's a toss up as to what is and isn't moral. If there were a God and he could tell us what is and isn't moral and was willing to enforce those rules, then I'd care a hell of a lot about morality.
If you don't believe in God, how are you Jewish?
bloomj31:Could these things be provided by the market? Probably. But I don't see them being provided by the market.
Because rent seekers like you prefer the state.
Esuric: bloomj31:I prefer to think in terms of self interest. What do I prefer? I prefer a state. That doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, that's just what I prefer. You may prefer something else, in which case, we can try to negotiate on it. No, you're wrong. You openly admit that you are a rent-seeker who endorses violence and theft. There's nothing more to discuss. bloomj31:I don't really care much for morality, I don't believe in God, so I think it's a toss up as to what is and isn't moral. If there were a God and he could tell us what is and isn't moral and was willing to enforce those rules, then I'd care a hell of a lot about morality. If you don't believe in God, how are you Jewish? bloomj31:Could these things be provided by the market? Probably. But I don't see them being provided by the market. Because rent seekers like you prefer the state.
1. How can you enforce your judgment?
2. I think Jews are a race. Judaism is the religion often practiced by the Jewish race.
3. Build a free society that can protect itself from outside threats and I'll change my mind. I promise.
bloomj31: 3. Build a free society that can protect itself from outside threats and I'll change my mind. I promise.
Working on it, trust me I'm working on it.
And of course the market isn't providing the service! It can't with a monopoly running around that has percieved legitimacy and a ton of weapons.
bloomj31: 1. How can you enforce your judgment? 2. I think Jews are a race. Judaism is the religion often practiced by the Jewish race. 3. Build a free society that can protect itself from outside threats and I'll change my mind. I promise.
1. What do you mean? You do it by supporting Israel and pro-Israeli lobbies.You do it by funding political thugs who in turn provide you with a special service.
2. As I understand it, Judaism is a religion which originated with the Semites, who also practice Islam. The Semites were dispersed all around the world and have become part of many different societies. The term "Jewish" is a direct reference to those who practice Judaism, much like how the word Muslim directly refers to those who follow Islam.
3. You realize that in such a society you cannot force the government to do your bidding, right? This means no special interests, just court systems, police, and national defense (I wouldn't mind a little bit of welfare, but don't want to get into that again).
Esuric: bloomj31: 1. How can you enforce your judgment? 2. I think Jews are a race. Judaism is the religion often practiced by the Jewish race. 3. Build a free society that can protect itself from outside threats and I'll change my mind. I promise. 1. What do you mean? You do it by supporting Israel and pro-Israeli lobbies.You do it by funding political thugs who in turn provide you with a special service. 2. As I understand it, Judaism is a religion which originated with the Semites, who also practice Islam. The Semites were dispersed all around the world and have become part of many different societies. The term "Jewish" is a direct reference to those who practice Judaism, much like how the word Muslim directly refers to those who follow Islam. 3. You realize that in such a society you cannot force the government to do your bidding, right? This means no special interests, just court systems, police, and national defense (I wouldn't mind a little bit of welfare, but don't want to get into that again).
1. You say I'm wrong. But how can you enforce that judgment?
2. That's the way a lot of people see it, but I see myself as a part of a race of people.
3. I do realize that. Show me the system and we'll see if it works the way you say it will. If it does, I will become an anarchist. On the spot.
bloomj31:3. I do realize that. Show me the system and we'll see if it works the way you say it will. If it does, I will become an anarchist. On the spot.
I'm not talking about anarchy, which is a fantasy.
Esuric: I'm not talking about anarchy, which is a fantasy.
What system are you talking about?
bloomj31:I don't justify the taxation on moral grounds. They're going to take the money anyways, might as well go to the things I care about.
This fundamental statement screams praxeology. Proponents of taxation are constantly changing the system to address their own desired needs. They assume that their ends are universally compatible with the ends of others, as if they were some authority on what is or is not a good end. So all these proponents of taxation all agree on the means, they will never be able to agree on the ends specifically. Human actors are working in their best interest using the environment they have available to them. This is why the political economy is in a constant flux. It's people accepting it's fault and then choosing to exploit it. It's counter to human nature for us to all agree. If we could all agree on ends we wouldn't need a government, elections, or democracy. We'd just move forward universally.
There are those who willing extort wealth from their country's citizen's to further the private interests of their own religious ends. Various Christian's want to exploit the state's coercive power to defend Israel. It's actually quiet an ironic stance from a Christianity standpoint.
The praxeological conflict these people don't see is that while their neighbor agrees with the means they can never agree on ends. They may agree on one or two, or even several but their total ends will never be inline. This is praxeology 101, the beleif that everyone's ends are the same. So everyone comes together and agree's on the same means, but what you find is their ends are entirely different. People seek their own ends. Liberals complain when republican's are making decisions and vise versa.
This really is the fundamental point of the market, to satisfy the desired ends of individuals allocating the specific amount of resources necessary to address that specific pool of individuals with matched ends. At a state level you force an entire population to fund the desired ends of a minority.
bloomj31:I don't care for domestic welfare because I don't really care that much for the people the money's being spent on.
But the quote above shows that you support welfare for Israel. IE, Taxpayers funding the wellbeing of Israel.
The Late Andrew Ryan: Working on it, trust me I'm working on it. And of course the market isn't providing the service! It can't with a monopoly running around that has percieved legitimacy and a ton of weapons.
What can I say bro? Life is tough.
Make it happen and you'll make a believer out of me.
Esuric: bloomj31:3. I do realize that. Show me the system and we'll see if it works the way you say it will. If it does, I will become an anarchist. On the spot. I'm not talking about anarchy, which is a fantasy.
No offense Esuric but your concept of limited state, while far better than what we have now, is also equally a fantasy.
Esuric:I'm not talking about anarchy, which is a fantasy.
Actually Somalia exists yet none of the anarchist want to move there, which I find fascinating. You would think that they would jump at the chance to fulfill their fantasies!
"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises
bloomj31:2. I think Jews are a race. Judaism is the religion often practiced by the Jewish race.
So did Hitler, which is why he murdered 6 million.
You are really confused. Judaism is a religion, period! And according to Jewish law, you are Jewish by your blood relation to your Jewish mother, regardless of what you believe in. So you don't have to resort to Nazism to support your atheism.
Poptech:Actually Somalia exists yet none of the anarchist want to move there, which I find fascinating. You would think that they would jump at the chance to fulfill their fantasies!
DD5: bloomj31:2. I think Jews are a race. Judaism is the religion often practiced by the Jewish race. So did Hitler, which is why he murdered 6 million. You are really confused. Judaism is a religion, period! And according to Jewish law, you are Jewish by your blood relation to your Jewish mother, regardless of what you believe in. So you don't have to resort to Nazism to support your atheism.
Both my parents are Jewish, therefore, I am Jewish.
You may consider being Jewish a product of practicing Judaism, I think it's a consequence of being part of a people that have been around for a long time.
Hitler didn't just believe that Jews were a race, he believed we were vermin worthy of extermination.
There are still people out there who think just like he did. We're more ready for them now than we were before. They may come after us again, but they'll have more resistance this time.
Esuric: bloomj31:I prefer to think in terms of self interest. What do I prefer? I prefer a state. That doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, that's just what I prefer. You may prefer something else, in which case, we can try to negotiate on it. No, you're wrong. You openly admit that you are a rent-seeker who endorses violence and theft. There's nothing more to discuss.
bloomj31:1. How can you enforce your judgment?
because you admit as much nearly every post.
bloomj31:As you noted, Israel is also on the top of my list of fiscal priorities. It's the Jewish homeland, I feel it must be protected.
Also on a side note. You've made this error in the past and thats fine. Morality and ethics have nothing to do with religion. You yourself follow an ethical code, despite not believing in God. Everyone in one fashion or another follows an ethical code. It has nothing to do with omniscient spirits, Gods, and the like.
Some people cherish their nonsensical "radical" positions.
bloomj31:Both my parents are Jewish, therefore, I am Jewish.
Your mother is enough. It's Jewish law, not mine.
bloomj31:You may consider being Jewish a product of practicing Judaism, I think it's a consequence of being part of a people that have been around for a long time.
What makes a person Jewish is not open for debate according to Jewish law.
Some people cherish their nonsensical "moderate" positions
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
the word fantasy isn't a debunker accept for those that advocate something not taken to its logical conclusion. And what stops a logical conclusion, such as fear, doesn't debunk human action either.
bloom,
and that's the problem with self-interested individuals that want to wield power and control as they lack courage to help others without coercing people to do their self-interests. No compassion in that, but hey it's looking into that mirror and dreamin' in the candy store.
bloomj31:1. You say I'm wrong. But how can you enforce that judgment?
filc: because you admit as much nearly every post.
But you have no way of enforcing your judgment. Law requires an arbiter and an enforcer. Where is your arbiter and enforcer?
filc: Also on a side note. You've made this error in the past and thats fine. Morality and ethics have nothing to do with religion. You yourself follow an ethical code, despite not believing in God. Everyone in one fashion or another follows an ethical code. It has nothing to do with omniscient spirits, Gods, and the like. I do not follow an ethical or moral code based on right and wrong but instead a consequential one where I pursue my desired ends through various means. I do not worry about whether they're right or wrong but instead whether they're allowed or not and what the consequences will be for taking actions that are not allowed. Thus I am able to abide by a legal code without worrying about whether my actions are morally right or wrong. I do this because I have very little faith in God, the supposed final arbiter and enforcer of morality. | Post Points: 20
I do not follow an ethical or moral code based on right and wrong but instead a consequential one where I pursue my desired ends through various means. I do not worry about whether they're right or wrong but instead whether they're allowed or not and what the consequences will be for taking actions that are not allowed. Thus I am able to abide by a legal code without worrying about whether my actions are morally right or wrong. I do this because I have very little faith in God, the supposed final arbiter and enforcer of morality.
Laughing Man:Well wouldn't propounding government necessity in defense, law and other public utilities mean the concentration of economic planning and controls into the hands of government and thus making government ownership in the industry the only reality?
I consider defense and law the "referees" or rather the arbitrators of private property. Outside of judges and the court rooms, the legal system is largely private. I would just do away with compulsory jury duty and allow jurors to be a profession. I would much rather have my legal team be able to select from a group of individuals who actually understood private property law then some random idiot. All public utilities should be privatized. I don't consider this economic planning. As for defense while I support your right to hire a PDA, I just like knowing that if you decided to try and use your PDA to steal my property (lets say my house), the Police, FBI and U.S. Military will be there to stop you.
Knight_of_BAAWA: bloomj31:1. You say I'm wrong. But how can you enforce that judgment?Your question makes no sense. Truth and falsity isn't a matter of "enforcement"; it's a matter of facts.
Knight, it's all a matter of a judge and an executioner. That's how law works. Isn't it? If God is real then he is my judge and my executioner. But if God is not real then man is my judge and executioner.
Let's take the example of this forum. The mods are the judges and the executioners. Now, they could punish me for doing something they thought was wrong. The only way I could get out of this punishment would be if either admin or another moderator decided to overrule the first moderator.
Therefore, what could be wrong to one could be right to another and vice versa. There's nothing absolute about any of these judgments, they're entirely subjective. Without a forum God to moderate moderators, it's all a toss up. It's the same way for the real world, don't you think?
Poptech:Actually Somalia exists yet none of the anarchist want to move there, which I find fascinating.
bloomj31:Knight, it's all a matter of a judge and an executioner.
Poptech: Esuric:I'm not talking about anarchy, which is a fantasy. Actually Somalia exists yet none of the anarchist want to move there, which I find fascinating. You would think that they would jump at the chance to fulfill their fantasies!
Ah, yes! And New Jersey is a minarchist heaven.
Knight_of_BAAWA: No it isn't. It's a matter of facts. You can claim that 1 + 1 = 3 all you want, but that won't make it so. Facts are facts are facts are facts.
No it isn't. It's a matter of facts. You can claim that 1 + 1 = 3 all you want, but that won't make it so. Facts are facts are facts are facts.
Would 1+1=2 be true if there were no one to understand it? No one to observe that "fact?" What if I say 1+1 =3? How do we settle our disagreement?