I've noticed a number of libertarians refuse to salute or respect the U.S. flag for the reason that it was created by a government.
what do you think of this? is saluting,respecting or in any way placing importance on national flags of any country actually respecting a state symbol.
do flags represent countries or government's? if the latter, are flags an example of the fascist type idea that the nation is the state? If the former how can this be true since many national flags were government created?
I just wondered because I think it's quite interesting and I'm undecided on the issue .I can see both sides points at times but I'm not sure if we need to completely abandon national flags.
any thoughts on this?
Later N.B. I don't mean ALL flags.I see no problem with the An-cap ones or the Gadsden "dont tread on me" flag or even just a personally designed one for whatever reason.I'm just refering to national flags held to symbolises a country and used by governments(national or regional)
I don't really want to comment or read anything here.I have near zero in common with many of you.I may return periodically when there's something you need to know.
Near Mutualist/Libertarian Socialist.
I myself am planning to plan a BIG Albanian flag atop my house, just for the fun of it. Flags originated as royal insignias, i.e. family symbols. They are, more than state icons, kinship icons, a symbolic common denominator of people who share a language. I myself see nothing wrong with flags, while honoring a flag, saluting it, bowing and the like, these are signs of reverence to the State, not nation. Hence, refusing to salute the flag seems only appropriate to me, a is myself have never risen to my anthem.
Scott F:any thoughts on this?
Never been a fan of flags.. but no doubt someone will post this;
http://www.threadless.com/profile/289796/spires/blog/266148/Anarcho_capitalist_flag
Alternatively;
JonBostwick: I was going to ask about the floral print, but the website already answered it. Here is a rundown of elements: The split black/color theme is a long time symbol of anarchy, with the color representing the root, or obversely, the intent of anarchy. The line travels upwards and rightwards, meaning economic growth, and a preference for western norms. The textile/damask pattern ican be seen as symbol of bourgeois prosperity. It was possible after the industrial revolution, for the masses to afford opulent beauty that kings were only able to afford beforehand. It also represents decentralization and the division of labor. Color gold is a symbol of the gold standard, under which no central authority can rule by means of fiat currency, leading to general peace and prosperity. Color black represents complete independence, and danger for trespass. Sea Green is an old color of classical liberalism. Amaranth is a symbol of the everlasting; in this case, the desire for liberty in the human spirit never dies. The snake is a symbol of individuality. The phrase "Don't tread on me" comes to mind. The implicit message is that an infringement of my rights will lead to just retribution. The sun has been seen as a symbol of wisdom and intelligence, and a sunflower growing from gold bars, seems a nice way of expressing how society flourishes from reason, and sound money. White normally means surrender, but against black, white becomes a symbol for 'only in death do we surrender', 'or live free or die' -- sort of like the pirate's flag. "Sic semper tyrannis" means "Thus always for tyrants" and is what rebels have historically yelled while killing despots. The deliberate asymmetry is appropriate because symmetry is a symbol of power generally, and in an anarcho-capitalist society, all power is decentralized. There is nothing to signify unity or economic class struggle in this flag, or the glory of war or anything signifying state power. The class struggle here is between the thief and the avenged victim; the crook and the honest producer, the politician and the property owner. Also, one should never have currency signs like "$" to represent capitalism, because the gold standard is universal and transcends national identities and currencies, which are not legitimate, natural market entities.
I was going to ask about the floral print, but the website already answered it.
Here is a rundown of elements: The split black/color theme is a long time symbol of anarchy, with the color representing the root, or obversely, the intent of anarchy. The line travels upwards and rightwards, meaning economic growth, and a preference for western norms. The textile/damask pattern ican be seen as symbol of bourgeois prosperity. It was possible after the industrial revolution, for the masses to afford opulent beauty that kings were only able to afford beforehand. It also represents decentralization and the division of labor. Color gold is a symbol of the gold standard, under which no central authority can rule by means of fiat currency, leading to general peace and prosperity. Color black represents complete independence, and danger for trespass. Sea Green is an old color of classical liberalism. Amaranth is a symbol of the everlasting; in this case, the desire for liberty in the human spirit never dies. The snake is a symbol of individuality. The phrase "Don't tread on me" comes to mind. The implicit message is that an infringement of my rights will lead to just retribution. The sun has been seen as a symbol of wisdom and intelligence, and a sunflower growing from gold bars, seems a nice way of expressing how society flourishes from reason, and sound money. White normally means surrender, but against black, white becomes a symbol for 'only in death do we surrender', 'or live free or die' -- sort of like the pirate's flag. "Sic semper tyrannis" means "Thus always for tyrants" and is what rebels have historically yelled while killing despots. The deliberate asymmetry is appropriate because symmetry is a symbol of power generally, and in an anarcho-capitalist society, all power is decentralized. There is nothing to signify unity or economic class struggle in this flag, or the glory of war or anything signifying state power. The class struggle here is between the thief and the avenged victim; the crook and the honest producer, the politician and the property owner. Also, one should never have currency signs like "$" to represent capitalism, because the gold standard is universal and transcends national identities and currencies, which are not legitimate, natural market entities.
I can imagine that christian anarchists would have a very hard time digesting the Snake and Sun symbolism. Otherwise the best an-cap flag I’ve ever seen.
Scott F: I've noticed a number of libertarians refuse to salute or respect the U.S. flag for the reason that it was created by a government. what do you think of this? is saluting,respecting or in any way placing importance on national flags of any country actually respecting a state symbol. do flags represent countries or government's? if the latter, are flags an example of the fascist type idea that the nation is the state? If the former how can this be true since many national flags were government created? I just wondered because I think it's quite interesting and I'm undecided on the issue .I can see both sides points at times but I'm not sure if we need to completely abandon national flags. any thoughts on this? Later N.B. I don't mean ALL flags.I see no problem with the An-cap ones or the Gadsden "dont tread on me" flag or even just a personally designed one for whatever reason.I'm just refering to national flags held to symbolises a country and used by governments(national or regional)
Flags are just symbols. As symbols they mean different things to different people. If there is a flag that means something good to you then fly it. If not then don't. I wouldn't philosophize much about it.
In regards to the Pledge of Allegience or the National Anthem, I stand up and stop talking in respect to the people that have given up their lives in the military etc. But I refuse to salute to the flag, the symbol of the State.
TelfordUS: In regards to the Pledge of Allegience or the National Anthem, I stand up and stop talking in respect to the people that have given up their lives in the military etc. But I refuse to salute to the flag, the symbol of the State.
This is my general feeling on the topic, also. When the National Anthem plays, I stand, but I don't put my hand on my heart. That creeps out a bit how people do that. I typically sing the song, but that's more just because I like to sing, no matter the song. :D
Did you know the pledge of allegiance was created by a socialst ,Francis bellamy? It was written to instill love of the state and nationalism(in the neo-con sense not just garden patriotism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo54.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/perry1.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell29.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/snyder3.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory92.html
http://rexcurry.net/pledgesalute.html