It is always referred to by anarcho-communists in infoshop.org as proof of an anarchy based on egalitarianism and public property. How do AnCaps here answer this allegation? I also want to know how the farmers and workers took over the means of production? Was there any violence involved?
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/stand-fast-and-fight-to-the-last-the-spanish-anarchist-collectives-by-rich/
Even if it is a perfect example of anarcho-syndicalism, I don't see what that has to do with AnCaps.
In an AnCap, communes are free to form. However, as far as I understand, the converse is not true.
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"Even when leftists talk about discrimination and sexism, they're damn well talking about the results of the economic system" ~Neodoxy
People who used money were killed. The anarchists elected a government (which is necessary in any syndicalist/socialist/communist system) and that government then joined the rest of Spain's government, and anarchy was over. It only lasted for a short while. Had it lasted a few years longer there would have been impoverishment due to the fact that without monetary calculation, there is no economic calculation.
Kenneth:I also want to know how the farmers and workers took over the means of production? Was there any violence involved?
Assuming some of those means of production were privately owned, then unless they were voluntarily given to them there was indeed violence involved.
The spanish republicans were also puppets of the soviets
You have any sources?
There was never any anarchism in Spain. There were anarchic syndicates, and there still are [i.e. CNT], but these never really developed a real anarchic society. The Spanish Republic was not "puppets of the Soviets". Before the civil war, the CNT was one of the largest political syndicates in Spain, with over a million members. The UGT, the major Communist syndicate, was not nearly as large until during the civil war, largely because of Soviet aid to the UGT during the war and because the UGT was able to spread politically during the war [this division between communists and anarchists was probably one of the major reasons why the Second Republic failed to crush a very weak military rebellion in the opening weeks].
Any syndicate governments, such as in Barcelona, were hardly real examples of anarchism. It would be like saying that modern farming cooperatives in Spain are good examples of how cooperatives would work; I explained in another thread how cooperatives are basically businesses with a lot of partners, but who hire workers who are not included amongst the ownership.
I want to here more as well. I have always been curious about this case.
Jonathan M. F. Catalán: There was never any anarchism in Spain. There were anarchic syndicates, and there still are [i.e. CNT], but these never really developed a real anarchic society. The Spanish Republic was not "puppets of the Soviets". Before the civil war, the CNT was one of the largest political syndicates in Spain, with over a million members. The UGT, the major Communist syndicate, was not nearly as large until during the civil war, largely because of Soviet aid to the UGT during the war and because the UGT was able to spread politically during the war [this division between communists and anarchists was probably one of the major reasons why the Second Republic failed to crush a very weak military rebellion in the opening weeks]. Any syndicate governments, such as in Barcelona, were hardly real examples of anarchism. It would be like saying that modern farming cooperatives in Spain are good examples of how cooperatives would work; I explained in another thread how cooperatives are basically businesses with a lot of partners, but who hire workers who are not included amongst the ownership.
So are you saying that it wasn't anarchism because what they want is impossible, or that we can't judge anarcho-communism on the basis of what happened there because there was not really anarcho-communism?
Even if it did work it wouldn't invalidate anarcho-capitalism.
I seem to remember there being laws against use of money.The punishment for being caught was death!
I also remember their being small 'collective' like governments.
In any case I recall it turned out badly and was essentially tyranny.
I don't really want to comment or read anything here.I have near zero in common with many of you.I may return periodically when there's something you need to know.
Near Mutualist/Libertarian Socialist.
I honestly do not know much about the "mechanisms" of anarcho-syndicalism or communism, other than what I've read through the Communist Manifesto [which isn't much], so I won't comment on their feasibility, or how the Spanish period illustrated their feasibility or infeasibility. But, I think they can make a convincing argument that the Spanish examples are poor examples, because all of those syndicates had to operate under a central authority in Madrid - whether that authority was a king [Alfonso III up to 1931], dictator [Primo de Rivera] or president [during the Second Republic; there were open clashes between anarchists and Republicans].
My main point is that Spain is not a good example of anarchism, even if it was one of the nexus of anarchist thought during the early 20th century.
They were statists who set up so-called "worker-run" factories, which just meant that wealth was redistributed from the creators of it to any and every lazy ass bum. Also they never disbanded taxes, the biggest evil of statism. I wonder how they called themselves anarchists at all.
Not offices and bureaucrats, but big business deserves credit for the fact that most of the families in the United States own a motorcar and a radio set. - Ludwig von Mises
So you are saying that Spain never really experienced anarchy and that it's only called anarchy because of the popularity of anarchist thought and anarchist political parties?
Kenneth: So you are saying that Spain never really experienced anarchy and that it's only called anarchy because of the popularity of anarchist thought and anarchist political parties?
Spain was never in anarchy. At its worst, Spain was as much in anarchy as Iraq is today.
Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, which is about his experiences in Spain during the civil war, should be required reading for every college student.