I. Ryan: Southern: Most would too. But the price to be paid is steep. To dodge the draft is a huge sacrifice. For those with strong ties to family, friends, and home; dodging the draft would be the equivalent of giving up everything you had ever known. That is too high a price for most. Why is getting drafted not also "the equivalent of giving up everything you had ever known"?
Southern: Most would too. But the price to be paid is steep. To dodge the draft is a huge sacrifice. For those with strong ties to family, friends, and home; dodging the draft would be the equivalent of giving up everything you had ever known. That is too high a price for most.
Most would too. But the price to be paid is steep. To dodge the draft is a huge sacrifice. For those with strong ties to family, friends, and home; dodging the draft would be the equivalent of giving up everything you had ever known. That is too high a price for most.
Why is getting drafted not also "the equivalent of giving up everything you had ever known"?
It could be. Its taking the chance of going to war for a year or two, then getting back home and back to normal as possible. As opposed to having to leave home for some undetermined period of time, possibly never being able to return home. Just depending on home aggressive and persistant the state is in pursuing deserters.
Marko:The important thing is that if you bended and allowed yourself to be drafted you would not shirk from your moral responsibility. You would not pretend that you were not doing anything wrong by occupying a foreign land simply because you were pressured into doing it.
However, if some had their way I would be strung up along side all the other murderers.
Because, as you have stated to me before, its not beliefs that determine what is criminal it is actions.
"Jesus died for your sins, soldiers died for your freedom... When you secularize an error, it's still an error." - Nathan
I think this quote sums it up pretty well.
(english is not my native language, sorry for grammar.)
Southern: Marko:The important thing is that if you bended and allowed yourself to be drafted you would not shirk from your moral responsibility. You would not pretend that you were not doing anything wrong by occupying a foreign land simply because you were pressured into doing it. However, if some had their way I would be strung up along side all the other murderers. Because, as you have stated to me before, its not beliefs that determine what is criminal it is actions.
I don't know what you are trying to say.
That it is a loose/loose situation for a person put in that situation. They refuse to go along they will be imprisioned, killed, etc. They go along they are murderers/aggressors/all around bad guys.
why, if enough people refuse, there would be no war at all. As Einstein said: "Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war."
I personally wouldn't kill anyone if someone ordered me to. I would most likely kill the one who gives me an order.
MaikU:why, if enough people refuse, there would be no war at all. As Einstein said: "Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war."
I agree. However, in the reality that we currently live in this is not the case.
MaikU:I personally wouldn't kill anyone if someone ordered me to. I would most likely kill the one who gives me an order.
Easy to say in a theoretical setting, but very different when you are swept up by forces stronger than yourself. There is a steep price to pay. I hope you never have to make that choice.
So here is a question, the next time someone screams at you and says "These soldiers died for your freedom!"
How can you best respond to inspire their thought and not be too offensive?
Really depends on what you have said to elicit that response. On second thought once you reach that point there is nothing that you can say.
I try to avoid getting to that point. When discussing the war "against terror" I try and demonstrate how the use of the military to deal with terrorism is like using a hammer to to sedate a patient in the hospital. Its the wrong tool for the job and only makes things worse. Keep it out of the realm of emotion where people feel you are painting their loved ones as monsters.
Being conscripted is not always an excuse. If you enter a war with a neutral attitude, your optimal chance of survival is to defect to the side that is winning.
Caley McKibbin: Being conscripted is not always an excuse. If you enter a war with a neutral attitude, your optimal chance of survival is to defect to the side that is winning.
That is not even close to being how reality works. Put yourself in the shoes of the draftees. You have been drafted along with your friends and family. You have been killing the enemy for months. What makes you think you can just switch sides? 1: the enemy would most likely kill you on sight or imprison you. If they imprison you the chances are you would never make it back home to see your family. 2: No one is going to just switch sides and start killing their friends and family. If they do then they have commited an immoral act in itself.
Have you ever been put in a situation of a draftee? Its a loose/loose situation. Get off your high horse.
Refusing to fight in a war after being drafted and rufusing to pay your taxes are not widespread actions for similar reasons. If one were to oppose the government and its actions and adhere to their beliefs then it would follow that that person would not pay taxes or fight in a non-revolutionary war. That rarely ever occurs in the real world because people value living life outside of a prison cell more then they value their stand against the government. As Spideynw says, "At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change."
socialdtk: Spideynw: I agree, it doesn't make sense. Most people really are sheeple. I don't think that is the case. People have been taught to believe that all soldiers in all wars are fighting for their freedom since they were children. When a person hears something go unchallenged throughout their entire life they tend to believe that it is true. Not all people have been exposed to libertarianism thus have not heard the other side of the argument. I don't believe these people are less intelligent or "sheepie". They just need to have some exposure to the other side of the story.
Spideynw: I agree, it doesn't make sense. Most people really are sheeple.
I agree, it doesn't make sense. Most people really are sheeple.
I don't think that is the case. People have been taught to believe that all soldiers in all wars are fighting for their freedom since they were children. When a person hears something go unchallenged throughout their entire life they tend to believe that it is true. Not all people have been exposed to libertarianism thus have not heard the other side of the argument. I don't believe these people are less intelligent or "sheepie". They just need to have some exposure to the other side of the story.
I never bought into it (that soldiers die for my freedom) before I learned about libertarianism. I'm sorry, but I just think most people are sheep. How many try to even challenge their traffic tickets? I challenged just about every one of my traffic tickets before I learned about libertarianism. I challenged them not on the basis of that I have no obligation to obey their laws, but to reduce the fines. But I still challenged most of them. I have yet to come across someone that I expose these ideas to, that is really in the least bit interested. As soon as I heard about the ideas, I became very interested. I think those of us that are libertarians are born with a desire for freedom. Most people just do not seem to be born with this desire. Most seem to be born with a desire to be lead. Of course I have no empirical data, this is all just conjecture.
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
People may never be inclined to question what they believe unless what ought not be said... is well articulated often.
Southern:What makes you think you can just switch sides?
The same thing that makes me think that you can refuse enlistment.
Southern:Have you ever been put in a situation of a draftee? Its a loose/loose situation.
Better to lose killing your enemy, the drafters, than killing your enemies enemy.
Spideynw:Most people just do not seem to be born with this desire. Most seem to be born with a desire to be lead. Of course I have no empirical data, this is all just conjecture.
I agree that majority of the people that I have come into contact with throughout my life behave as you described above. I agree that in regards to many issues some people may seem to behave as sheep. What I do not believe is that these people are less intelligent then myself or unable to learn to engage in critical thinking. If that were the case then anarcho-capitalism would be just as utopian as Marxism. There are many things that condition otherwise intelligent people to behave as they are sheep. Kids all go to school as children and are taught from the beginning to obey their teacher because she is their superior. Kids are taught not to question her and to walk in a straight line and say the pledge of allegiance or miss recess. Once these lessons are learned children are told stories about how Honest Abe never told a lie, how he grew up to become the greatest president of all time and then made to memorize these stories in order to pass their multiple choice test. Higher education functions basically the same with different incentives in place.
In order to for one to realize that they were lied to their entire life they must learn to look in the places they have been taught not to look. Places that tend to use flag words they have been condition to associate with negative meanings. For instance laissez-faire capitalism, anarchism, communism, etc... The initial step is the hardest to take because it goes against everything they have spent their whole life learning but once that initial step is taken personal revolution normally isn't very far away.
Spideynw:I never bought into it (that soldiers die for my freedom) before I learned about libertarianism.
Then spread the word, point out the fallacies, disspell the myth, liberate the population and one day truly be free.
Spideynw:How many try to even challenge their traffic tickets? I challenged just about every one of my traffic tickets before I learned about libertarianism. I challenged them not on the basis of that I have no obligation to obey their laws, but to reduce the fines. But I still challenged most of them.
There is other factors that come into play here that prevent people from challenging their tickets. For example I value 100 dollars less then I value the time wasted standing in a crowded courtroom for 6 hours.
filc: So here is a question, the next time someone screams at you and says "These soldiers died for your freedom!" How can you best respond to inspire their thought and not be too offensive?
I tell them I know people in the military.
I tell them I have heard firsthand from those people.
They have the least flattering things to say about the military as an institution.
A childhood friend of my father who died in the Kargil War had reservations about it. Most of his other military colleagues found it a petty and pointless war, and unnecessary waste for having so many people dead.
A retired and high ranking member of the navy was talking to me and my parents yesterday. He told us of all the false flag operations India was involved in, how it has assasinated leaders in neighbouring countries and within itself in past decades, and how those were made to look like killings by angry rioting dissidents. It's typical business for them.
The biggest disservice to all those servicemen is to deny the truth.
Caley McKibbin: Southern:Have you ever been put in a situation of a draftee? Its a loose/loose situation. Better to lose killing your enemy, the drafters, than killing your enemies enemy.
You lose either way. So why would you kill people you know as opposed to people you dont?
Caley McKibbin: Southern:What makes you think you can just switch sides? The same thing that makes me think that you can refuse enlistment.
Of course you could. But its an issue where you weigh the alternatives. You dont seem to want to acknowledge what has to be given up to make these choices. You want to paint a picture of a simple choice. Its not.
Spideynw:I never bought into it (that soldiers die for my freedom) before I learned about libertarianism. I'm sorry, but I just think most people are sheep. How many try to even challenge their traffic tickets? I challenged just about every one of my traffic tickets before I learned about libertarianism. I challenged them not on the basis of that I have no obligation to obey their laws, but to reduce the fines. But I still challenged most of them. I have yet to come across someone that I expose these ideas to, that is really in the least bit interested. As soon as I heard about the ideas, I became very interested. I think those of us that are libertarians are born with a desire for freedom. Most people just do not seem to be born with this desire. Most seem to be born with a desire to be lead. Of course I have no empirical data, this is all just conjecture.
Im not sure you are giving people enough credit. Your subjective value scale is just different.
Time and energy is scarce. Most people value the time and energy that would be spent fighting a traffic ticket more than they value what little they would gain. No different from economic exchange. They arent interested in these ideas because the investment that it would take to make them reality is more than they feel they would get out of it.
Southern:You lose either way. So why would you kill people you know as opposed to people you dont?
Why would you kill anyone at all? Typically when one is drafted they get a letter in the mail saying so. This give that person an ample amount of time to flee or if they choice to stay and be thrown in jail. I rather spend my time in a jail cell then in a kill or be killed scenario.
Southern: Of course you could. But its an issue where you weigh the alternatives. You dont seem to want to acknowledge what has to be given up to make these choices. You want to paint a picture of a simple choice. Its not.
The choice Is not very hard for me. It's either live on the front lines with the fear of being killed for the duration of the war or to flee. I can't imagine my quality of life ever being the same after taking another persons life.
socialdtk:Why would you kill anyone at all? Typically when one is drafted they get a letter in the mail saying so. This give that person an ample amount of time to flee or if they choice to stay and be thrown in jail. I rather spend my time in a jail cell then in a kill or be killed scenario.
What is given up by going to jail or fleeing?
By going to jail you potentially loose all of your future. If you are single you los the chance at marriage, children, etc. If you are married with children, you cant provide, raise your children, etc.
Or you allow yourself to get drafted do some bad stuff for a year or two, put it behind you and get on with your life. Historically most choose to give a up year or two of thier lives.
socialdtk:The choice Is not very hard for me. It's either live on the front lines with the fear of being killed for the duration of the war or to flee. I can't imagine my quality of life ever being the same after taking another persons life.
Thats your value scale. And its very easy to say when its not your reality.
Southern:By going to jail you potentially loose all of your future.
I don't see how going to jail for a few years could be more devastating to your future then going to war. If one chooses to go to war there is the possibility that they will not come home, they will be seriously injured or emotionally damaged. I think it is more correct to say, "By going to war you potentially loose all of your future."
Southern:If you are married with children, you cant provide, raise your children, etc.
If you are married with children would you rather go off and fight some war that has nothing to do with you or to stay with and protect your family?
Southern:Or you allow yourself to get drafted do some bad stuff for a year or two, put it behind you and get on with your life. Historically most choose to give a up year or two of thier lives.
Some choose to give up a year or two of their life and end up giving their entire life for a cause that they didn't even agree with.
Southern:Thats your value scale. And its very easy to say when its not your reality.
I guess I could always resort to mass killing out of conveniece but I'd hope that when the time comes I don't take the "easy way out".
Well, we should probably mention that there were soldiers in one of these conflicts who did something for freedom of Americans. They were the heroic soldiers that took part in the GI Revolt. Contrary to what you may expect enlistees were actually more crucial to it than draftees.
socialdtk:I don't see how going to jail for a few years could be more devastating to your future then going to war. If one chooses to go to war there is the possibility that they will not come home, they will be seriously injured or emotionally damaged. I think it is more correct to say, "By going to war you potentially loose all of your future."
One is a know quantity the other is not. You dont go- you know you will be on the run or in prison. You do go - the chances are that you will make it back home to your family.
socialdtk: Southern:If you are married with children, you cant provide, raise your children, etc. If you are married with children would you rather go off and fight some war that has nothing to do with you or to stay with and protect your family?
Of course everyone would choose to stay with thier family. But you are introducing a false choice into the scenario. THey dont get that choice!
socialdtk: Southern:Or you allow yourself to get drafted do some bad stuff for a year or two, put it behind you and get on with your life. Historically most choose to give a up year or two of thier lives. Some choose to give up a year or two of their life and end up giving their entire life for a cause that they didn't even agree with.
Yes they did. That was a chance they took. Not very appealing, however neither are the alternatives.
socialdtk: Southern:Thats your value scale. And its very easy to say when its not your reality. I guess I could always resort to mass killing out of conveniece but I'd hope that when the time comes I don't take the "easy way out".
Easy way out!? My whole point is that there are no easy ways out.
Marko: Well, we should probably mention that there were soldiers in one of these conflicts who did something for freedom of Americans. They were the heroic soldiers that took part in the GI Revolt. Contrary to what you may expect enlistees were actually more crucial to it than draftees.
Along the same lines, the christmas truce along the western front in WWI. But it was to be short lived and through threats of violence the leaders of both side soon had thier pawns back killing each other.
Once again the common soldier is not the bad guy.
I think we both would agree that it is unfortunate that anyone would ever have to make this decision. There are positive and negative consequences associated with both options and it's up the to individual to decided which they think will lead them to the greatest overall satisfaction whether it be fighting in or escaping from the war.
With that being said if change is expected to occur then revolutionary action must be taken. People must admit that their compliance is what allows disasters such as conscription ( slavery ), taxation ( extortion ) and war ( mass killing ) to take place and that if they choice to stand up against it liberation is inevitable.
Southern: Easy way out!? My whole point is that there are no easy ways out.
I think "easy way out" may have been to strong of a statement. What I meant was that if someone chooses to fight in the war because they believe that it is the most convenient option they have done nothing to solve the fundamental problem but have instead embraced it. I know most people do embrace state control over their lives on a regular basis but until people begin to stop change cannot be expected to occur.
"Go f*** yourself"
"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."
socialdtk:I think we both would agree that it is unfortunate that anyone would ever have to make this decision. There are positive and negative consequences associated with both options and it's up the to individual to decided which they think will lead them to the greatest overall satisfaction whether it be fighting in or escaping from the war.
Thats what we all do.
socialdtk:With that being said if change is expected to occur then revolutionary action must be taken. People must admit that their compliance is what allows disasters such as conscription ( slavery ), taxation ( extortion ) and war ( mass killing ) to take place and that if they choice to stand up against it liberation is inevitable.
Agreed. However be careful blaming people who may feel that something unjust is being done but go along because from the information they have, they feel that they would stand up to it alone or that the personal sacrifice would be too much. We all make the same decision every day.
socialdtk:I think "easy way out" may have been to strong of a statement. What I meant was that if someone chooses to fight in the war because they believe that it is the most convenient option they have done nothing to solve the fundamental problem but have instead embraced it. I know most people do embrace state control over their lives on a regular basis but until people begin to stop change cannot be expected to occur.
Fair enough. But I happen to believe that most people accept state control (not embrace) because they feel it is inevitable and too big to fight. So they choose to live thier lives as best they can.
Esuric: filc: So here is a question, the next time someone screams at you and says "These soldiers died for your freedom!" How can you best respond to inspire their thought and not be too offensive? "Go f*** yourself"
If avoid the emotional side of the debates you wont get to that point. Then you wont have to resort to that. ^^^^^
Southern: Once again the common soldier is not the bad guy.
I think the attitude you show is useful in that enables you to at least theoretically have the ability to reach out to these people, whereas for most others there is too much of a gulf. I sometime end up in a role similar to yours in relation to some other groups who I am not willing to give up on.
Marko: Southern: Once again the common soldier is not the bad guy. I think the attitude you show is useful in that enables you to at least theoretically have the ability to reach out to these people, whereas for most others there is too much of a gulf. I sometime end up in a role similar to yours in relation to some other groups who I am not willing to give up on.
I find myself harshly judging others at times. But I have to step back from time to time and put myself in the shoes of others. That results in very different outlooks when it comes to soldiers, who dont want to kill anyone but dragged into political disputes between our rulers and horrible people who get joy from killing other human beings.
I just think that if we alienate ourselves from the rest of the world with inflamatory rhetoric we are handicapping ourselves.
They send helpless teenagers off to die and they know that, so they have to justify it by making everyone feel guilty and so in turn in our guilt to the families and such we except bullshit
"What freedom?"
freedom to vote
MaikU: freedom to vote
Freedom is having duly elected extortionists instead of the hereditary kind.