In case there was any doubt: Israel's story full of holes

This article is useful.... But states have no right to exist. Only individuals, and only insofar as their actions are non-aggressive.

Cheers I'll read it. I agree that states shouldn't exist; they break the non-aggression principle and therefore are Ethically bogus increasingly I feel they also have no Utilitarian justification either.

Well I've read it and it makes many excellent points however It doesn't take into account neighboring states' religious hatred of Jews in the region.  Whilst tolerating small and weak Jewish communities' existence anything more was met with pogroms.

Also... "It was about this time when the first violence between Arabs and Jews erupted in the area.  As Jewish investors began to buy property—displacing Arab tenants—, forming socialist collectives hiring only Jewish workers, attacks by Arabs on Jewish property began to grow."

Were the Arab tenants displaced? If so were they legitimately displaced under Libertarian standards? Whilst I disagree with Socialist Collectives, if the property was legitimate weren't the within their Libertarian rights to use only Jewish workers?

So far it looks like the Jewish settlers were in the right by Libertarian standards.

So far it looks like the Jewish settlers were in the right by Libertarian standards.

This isn't true. Maybe in some cases, but my guess is less than 5%. When I am talking about the broad political "libertarianism", I mean people who claim to be driven by a spirit of liberty. Advocating a Jewish state is contradictory, so I really feel that you are not a genuine libertarian, regardless of how much you insist you are.

It doesn't take into account neighboring states' religious hatred of Jews in the region.  Whilst tolerating small and weak Jewish communities' existence anything more was met with pogroms.

Citation? How do you counter the claim that jews and arabs lived together in peace for 800 years? Don't you think its more likely that politics is the root of all these problems?

Were the Arab tenants displaced? If so were they legitimately displaced under Libertarian standards?

Err probably not. I can't legitimately buy your property or person without your consent....

So far it looks like the Jewish settlers were in the right by Libertarian standards.

What is libertarian about it...

Oh dear! Out of curiosity  though; if you completely ignored my views about Israel, would you be suspicious that 

I was suffering symptoms of being Libertarian?

Hi I'll go in reverse order.  Before I do though I'm not the best debater so don't expect any great rhetorical retorts. You are right they weren't Libertarian in that Socialist communes aren't exactly well Libertarian.

The Arab tenants' displacement.  But were they kicked off their land -by settlers? If so then no definitely not Libertarian however I dispute this happened on the scale to delegitimise settlers.

Well you only have to look at Koranic verses and Haddith to see this ain't so.

The Israel/Arab debate is a heated one with entrenched positions.

The Arab tenants' displacement.  But were they kicked off their land -by settlers? If so then no definitely not Libertarian however I dispute this happened on the scale to delegitimise settlers.

They weren't necessarily kicked out, but they weren't allowed to return. The same difference.

leftie:

The Arab tenants' displacement.  But were they kicked off their land -by settlers? If so then no definitely not Libertarian however I dispute this happened on the scale to delegitimise settlers.

So, your vision is that innocent jews came to isreal and settled peacefully, and then all the arabs had a huge problem with this, so they made war and the isreali's set up government and got US aid to fight them back? Yeah i'll need a citation for this

leftie:

Well you only have to look at Koranic verses and Haddith to see this ain't so.

Religious people don't follow their texts; Its all political. This does nothing to address the fact that jews and arabs lived together in peace for 800 years :/

E. R. Olovetto:

To be fair, both terms can have a fairly broad meaning.

As far as I know, nobody who considers themself a zionist is opposed to an Israeli state. If that term means only the return to Israelis land which is genuinely owned by individuals, and thus respect for Palestinian claims as well, I'm a zionist too. Also, I've been trying to point out the difference between "libertarianism" qua political philosophy and libertarianism qua legal philosophy. The former is broad, but the latter is very specific, based on logical deduction of the non-agression principle. A corollary of the legal doctrine would be anarchy as law, so it would be impossible to advocate any form of statism.

 

1 ) You are right about the Zionism.  I thought there was a more spiritual and cultural use of the word that had nothing to do with the state that could be used, but I couldn't find anything to back that up.

2) I've been kind of wanting to do a thread discussion on the use of the word libertarian and how it should be taken within the context of this website.  When I get more time and collect my thoughts better, I think I'll do that (probably not for a day or two).  If you have any suggestions or points you want me to bring up PM me on that.

I don't know about peace for 800 years, off the top of my head I can think of the 1929 Hebron Massacre

I'm just blindly regurgitating things I've read. And now i can't even find the citation. Great. Although I'd like to see if jews were targeted more than any other group in the middle east; you know cus different factions of islam massacred eachother too.

I can't find the post/topic that had pictures of stocked outdoor Gaza markets as proof that the blockade is really not harsh at all to reply directly so I am putting it here. I heard an explanation (that I really should have realised myself) of this today on antiwar radio. Many of those goods aren't there because Israel allows them, but instead because it can not stop them. They are being smuggled in from Egypt through the underground tunnells. However since smuggling is so hard they are very expensive and thus out of reach of the vast mayority of Gazans. There are almost every type of goods on shelves however very few can afford to buy them. 

 

Also people should really stop pretending that the blockade is about weapons. There have been so many pro-Israel people openly saying that this is about collectively punishing the populace of Gaza strip for electing Hamas, and about getting them to drop their support for it that there can't be any doubt about it.

 

I'll give you that a part of the folks on the flottila ships were asshats, I know the type. Hysterical crusading liberals and Muslim solidarists posing as ones. A bunch of them would have cheered on similar measures if the victim was different. However, it is important to seperate the person from the argument.

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