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Sidelines thread to Lilburne and Rettoper's debate, since we can't post in the actual debate thread

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This project is about as plausible as Seasteading.

Are you able to articulate what the goals and methodology of SSI are?

Vichy?

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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I'm not the one who thinks the masses are anything but intellectually inert two-legged cattle. You know the reason bad ideas are so massively predominate throughout history: people like them.

Are you a member of the masses?  If not, how do you explain how much you like bad ideas?

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To build secret island ship cities of libertarians.

Which would be instantly crushed by the U.S. Navy as soon as they were relevant.

Of course, it's so expensive and lame it won't happen anyways.

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” - Benito Mussolini
"Toute nation a le gouvernemente qu'il mérite." - Joseph de Maistre

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http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/09/seasteading-without-that-warm-glow.html Here's a good blog post on it.

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” - Benito Mussolini
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To build secret island ship cities of libertarians.

Which would be instantly crushed by the U.S. Navy as soon as they were relevant.

Of course, it's so expensive and lame it won't happen anyways.

I can't tell if this is humor, an admission of ignorance, or both.

Were you trying to be funny with the first line, and then fake indifference and fatalism with the last two?

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/09/seasteading-without-that-warm-glow.html Here's a good blog post on it.

I didn't ask you if you read a blog post about it.  I asked you if you could articulate the goals and methodology of SSI, whom you were at least indirectly (now apparently directly) criticizing.

Can you articulate their stated goals and methodology?  I would assume so, since you wouldn't do something so intellectually lazy and dishonest as offer a shallow critique based on ignorance, right?

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Seasteading is creating permanent dwellings on the ocean - homesteading the high seas. A seastead, like in the picture to the right, is a structure meant for permanent occupation on the ocean.

That is exactly what I said, only Patri takes himself seriously, and I can not.

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don't answer; its a trap !

 

good to see you old chap.

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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"That is exactly what I said, only Patri takes himself seriously, and I can not."

I actually saw Patri at an event in San Francisco recently and had an impromptu debate with him.  I personally think it is possible to spread good ideas very broadly, and he's skeptical of that (which is why he resorts to the seasteading approach).

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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That is exactly what I said, only Patri takes himself seriously, and I can not.

Without a doubt, your posts to me today render it impossible to take you seriously, at least thus far.  However, you still have not answered the question.  Can you articulate the goals and methodology of the SSI?

Have you read more than the opening paragraph or two of the mission statement or are we to rely as your source, primarily on a blog post by someone who was disinvited to speak at an event, and only had the *cough* courage and character to speak his mind after his invitation was withdrawn, and then by posting half of a conversation, at least half of which (the first half which I speed/skim read) was composed almost entirely of baseless assertion, strawmen and self-indulgent intellectual masturbation?

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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good to see you old chap.

Answering PMs, made the mistake of checking in on the latest arrogance and fatalism.  Nice to see you too though.  And Nitro, Lilburne and others.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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lol. blahblahblah.

Seasteading is a good idea. For a science fiction story.

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” - Benito Mussolini
"Toute nation a le gouvernemente qu'il mérite." - Joseph de Maistre

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Angurse replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:38 PM

"I actually saw Patri at an event in San Francisco recently and had an impromptu debate with him.  I personally think it is possible to spread good ideas very broadly, and he's skeptical of that (which is why he resorts to the seasteading approach)."

Perhaps with your educating, Patri's seafaring, and my massive breeding we can etch out a positive future.

"I am an aristocrat. I love liberty, I hate equality."
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  I personally think it is possible to spread good ideas very broadly, and he's skeptical of that (which is why he resorts to the seasteading approach).

Patri is more focused on proving good ideas as a means spreading them.  I don't know that seasteading will work (anyone who claims to know is speculating at best) however I applaud the vision and acumen of not just Patri, but the impressive supporters, founders and investors behind the project.  They are not idealistic dreamers, but experts in law, engineering, business, technology, marketing and entrepreneurship, and they acknowledge, that even if they fail, we have a lot to learn from the effort.

Of course, there will always be naysayers.  Naysaying is easy.  Accomplishing more than complaining and critique is hard.  And in my experience naysayers are rarely "roll up your sleeves" sort of people.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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I actually saw Patri at an event in San Francisco recently and had an impromptu debate with him.  I personally think it is possible to spread good ideas very broadly, and he's skeptical of that (which is why he resorts to the seasteading approach).

I am quite sceptical of both. In fact, I believe that in the near term they will totally fail, especially as so many of them are directed in asinine ways. Educated the majority is pointless, all it produces is confused and contradictory populist ideologies which rise up and fizzle out due to their lack of internal coherence.

Never expect salvation from the masses, especially not from their intellectual abilities. The average human being is nothing to be proud of your relation to. "I don't know what a scoundrel is like, but I know what a respectable man is like, and it's enough to make one's flesh creep."

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” - Benito Mussolini
"Toute nation a le gouvernemente qu'il mérite." - Joseph de Maistre

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"Perhaps with your educating, Patri's seafaring, and my massive breeding we can etch out a positive future."

That is REALLY funny.  Thank you for the laugh. cheeky

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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@vichy

I can't figure out whether you have just insulted my friends and my family. (and that of everyone else who posts here... or anywhere)

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Accomplishing more than complaining and critique is hard.

Please, checking my junk mail is more important and relevant than the miniscule effect I would have upon de-totalitarianizing politics, if that were even possible. Activism is a waste of energy, look after yourself and screw anyone who can't.

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” - Benito Mussolini
"Toute nation a le gouvernemente qu'il mérite." - Joseph de Maistre

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I've never been shy about the fact that I have a very low opinion of your typical homo sapiens, and I think anyone who isn't is basically ascribing to the majority accomplishments they fought tooth and nail against (and still do). Human beings have no more intrinsic value than any other kind of organism, and frankly the majority of them constitute such a mentally inert bunch of doo-littles that their meager productivity is likely outweighed by the immense drag they have on political and economic organization.

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” - Benito Mussolini
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Vichy, can we please change the subject?  I really enjoy reading your takes on philosophy and economics, so I really don't want to have to moderate you.  sad

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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Vichy, can we please change the subject?  I really enjoy reading your takes on philosophy and economics, so I really don't want to have to moderate you.

lol. I don't care, I don't find talking about political theory to be that productive to begin with. I mainly come here for the econ, and get caught up in the Libertarianism.

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lol. blahblahblah.

Seasteading is a good idea. For a science fiction story.

I find it funny you wrote this because you continue to avoid qualifying your opinion, and I think it is interesting psychologically, because you pretend not to care what people think about what you think, but you spend a lot of time telling people (whom you claim to regard as inferiors) what you think, and then avoid an honest defense of your opinions to those same people after expending the energy to share in the first place.  I would call it futile if I didn't think it was a coping mechanism.

We should dub you,  "the intellectually inert cattle whisperer".

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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I thought Vichy != Liberte

Anyhow Lilburne what do I have to do to get a response in the Dissent Ghetto?

Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave.—Karl Kraus.

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Liberte, why do you post in this forum if you are intellectual superior to the masses here? Thnx bai.

EDIT: Improve your intellectual self-esteem?

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
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Angurse replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:01 PM

"Please, checking my junk mail is more important and relevant than the miniscule effect I would have upon de-totalitarianizing politics, if that were even possible. Activism is a waste of energy, look after yourself and screw anyone who can't."

I think you mean "look after yourself and screw everyone" and look at that activism is fun again.

 

(sorry, I'm done with these stupid jokes, everyone try to friendly now)

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Because I don't really pay attention to the majority of you? I actually like reading Lilburne's posts, and the Stirnerites are usually entertaining. I just don't care for libertarianism, populism, leftism, activism, rightsism or morality. If I had more self-control, I'd just respond to the economics posts, since those are the only ones I care about enough to actually argue on.

Anyways, it's not a question of 'superiority', it's a question of aptitudes and inclinations.

And this is totally off-topic.

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Angurse:

Perhaps with your educating, Patri's seafaring, and my "massive breeding" we can etch out a positive future.


Bully!  :raises a small glass of glenfiddich in a toast:

"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict

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I'll be friendly, and I certainly don't want to create headaches for anyone.  I just find it cute and a little sobering that people who claim to be so  disinterested spend so much energy expressing their interest and opinions.

Whether you subscribe to argumentation ethics or not, pointing out performative contradictions (of which my posts to this thread may qualify) is always fun.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Making an assertion or an argument in no way entails interest in the listener's opinions. That's a plain fallacy.

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” - Benito Mussolini
"Toute nation a le gouvernemente qu'il mérite." - Joseph de Maistre

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Yes! I got her to respond. 

Sorry, LS, I got her to justify something and you didn't. :D

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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If I had more self-control, I'd just respond to the economics posts, since those are the only ones I care about enough to actually argue on.

If only's and just's were candies and nuts then every day would be Erntedankfest.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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we could argue the semantics of what it means to be 'interested', if you are interested ?

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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I'm afraid anyone who doesn't understand Schiller isn't worth discussing it with.

“Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” - Benito Mussolini
"Toute nation a le gouvernemente qu'il mérite." - Joseph de Maistre

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Hey now, looks like the sidelines will have its own sidelines.

"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict

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and now that you've posted that sentence you will go on to answer the question?

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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LeeO replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:14 PM

I should have written: "I would be interested to know how long Lilburne and other ancaps think it will take for enough of of society to become educated enough for anarchy to be feasible."

By majority, I was thinking in terms of the United States or another large, developed country. How long would it take for a "critical mass" of people in America to become believers in libertarian principles, such that a natural order of anarchy would be sustainable?

Lilburne and DD5 have answered by describing a strategy of secession, piece by piece. I believe this is the strategy advocated by Hoppe. This seems more realistic because secession only requires a libertarian perspective in a small geographic area. I am doubtful, however that a movement like the Free State project would ever succeed given the power of large, coercive governments around the world.

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LeeO replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:16 PM

Here is the quote from Skyler I am responding to in my previous post:

@LeeO, define majority. Majority of a city? a State? the Nation? Isn't New Hampshire working on this?

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"I sing as the bird sings that lives in the boughs; the song that swells from my throat is a reward that repays me richly."

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Thanks for that verse Vichy.  Mises mentions Goethe a lot, so I've been curious about his stuff; very nice.

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Education of the masses is technically far easier than having a lot of babies.  The problem is that most people are extremely cowardly.   This is where Stefan Molyneux hit the bullseye.  How many people here do so much as educate the people around them- forget the masses?  The appeal of babies is that you can just hide in your hole and not have to face anything.

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