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Ron Paul is running for president!

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liberty student:
Ron Paul and the Mises Institute, along with LRC, have become the libertarian educational campaign the way the Libertarian Party was meant to be.

Great point.

Although, I think Wayne Allen Root is catching up! wink

"I'm not a fan of Murray Rothbard." -- David D. Friedman

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Conza88:

"He only hurts the cause of liberty/anarchy."

That, sir - is beyond retarded. There isn't anyone alive whose done more than RP to spread the message, besides possibly Lew Rockwell.

"I used to be big supporter.  Then I realized the nature of the state and what a waste of time politics is. "

Then you failed to recognise alternate and verying strategies. You threw the baby out with the bathwater. [I hate that phrase]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFYRHZpavX4

4min +... wink (but seriously, watcht the whole thing)

 

I've seen that interview and hundreds others with the guy, and hundreds others with libertarian/anarchist tilt (I have no life).

But seriously, I like him, but just look at what's happening with his son in Ky - he's becoming the typical polician.  One always has to forgoe priciples when entering the political arena.  And Ron had endorsed numerous neocons and issues (i.e. immagration, the border).  Just admit Ron's a typical politician.  If he wasn't he'd go full agorist by now.

For what it's worth, I didn't become anarchist till after I heard about Ron Paul.  But that doesn't mean anything because I probably would have figured it out eventually.  Who knows when it would have been?  It doesn't mean RP serves some kind of holier than thou purpose of abolishing the state from within, slowly or something.  That has never worked.

Just look at all his jung ho supporters holding up their constitutions like it's more than just a piece of toilet paper and their worship of the founding fathers like their are immortal gods or some crap like that.  It does not help to end the state only justifies it's existence.

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K-Stigs replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 9:34 AM

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CoolUserName:

For what it's worth, I didn't become anarchist till after I heard about Ron Paul.

Then he did his job.  He reached a great many of us, who ended up here, who ended up pursuing a deeper scholarship about liberty and economics.

Your attacks on him for being imperfect are a reflection of your own dissatisfaction with the impact you have on the world, not some higher purpose he is supposed to achieve towards your ends.

Yes, Ron Paul is a politician.  Yes, Ron Paul agitates within the political system, using political means.  Yes, Ron Paul has done more than anyone in centuries to advance the ideas of laissez-faire and liberalism, and not-so-indirectly, a voluntary society.

Get over it.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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CoolUserName:
He only hurts the cause of liberty/anarchy.

CoolUserName:
For what it's worth, I didn't become anarchist till after I heard about Ron Paul.  But that doesn't mean anything because I probably would have figured it out eventually.  Who knows when it would have been? 

Ron Paul has been the #1 reason that the number of ancaps has swelled in past years.  Your own self-assurance aside, do you think they all would have "figured it out eventually" even without Paul, even though before Paul's campaign, ancap numbers were stagnant?

The Ron Paul campaign was something special.  You, and countless others, are here striving for liberty because of it.  For you to say, "He only hurts the cause of liberty/anarchy" is appalling.

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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DD5 replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 10:49 AM

 

Voting, in the political sense,is a counterproductive means to achieve the ends of voluntarism.  However, we are still at the stage where the vast majority will simply shut their ears the moment you mention anything remotely close to this.

The only way to reconcile the Ron Paul movement with this is to recognize that Ron Paul is a means to get some of those people to a stage where they do not shut their ears, but at least debate you.  Then Ron Paul has done his job (from my perspective).  So Ron Paul as a sort of a "trick" to draw people into the intellectual battle about freedom is a good thing.  Ron Paul as a means to propagate constitutional and limited government is a bad thing.

Here is the question at hand at hand.  In which direction is the net flow of ideas as a result of Ron Paul?  To freedom or to statism?  As much as I despise the rhetoric about the constitution, I have to accept the fact that the net flow seems to be in our direction right now.  

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Conza88 replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 10:51 AM

"I've seen that interview and hundreds others with the guy, and hundreds others with libertarian/anarchist tilt (I have no life)."

Eh, that's the only one where he explictly confirms it as far as I'm aware. Where are these others?

"But seriously, I like him, but just look at what's happening with his son in Ky - he's becoming the typical polician."

That's his son, that isn't him.

"One always has to forgoe priciples when entering the political arena. "

No, one doesn't. Ron is case and point. But there is obviously immense pressure to conform, the whole system is geared towards it. If you actually believe in the legitimacy of government, then you have no hope. That's why Rand "fails" in comparision.

"And Ron had endorsed numerous neocons and issues (i.e. immagration, the border)."

What neocons? I specifically remember Ron advocating "non-voting leagues", or if you do to vote - for the minor parties (non status quo), instead of lesser of two evils.

Immigration? There are libertarians on every 'side'. Block - "open", Hoppe "closed" and Kinsella who has the plumbline position.

"For what it's worth, I didn't become anarchist till after I heard about Ron Paul."

That goes for me and 100,000's +.

"It doesn't mean RP serves some kind of holier than thou purpose of abolishing the state from within, slowly or something.  That has never worked."

Again with the strawmen. He actually openly acknowledges that. The fact that you don't understand that given the situation makes it even worse.

"Ideas are the only things that count, and politicians are, for the most part, pretty much irrelevant," Ron Paul told the London Independent in December.

He filters people outside the system.

"Just look at all his jung ho supporters holding up their constitutions like it's more than just a piece of toilet paper and their worship of the founding fathers like their are immortal gods or some crap like that."

I was banned from Ron Paul Forums for exactly that reason [Continuing to point out that Ron is a voluntarist, using his own words against his own "supporters" is a very quick way of opening their eyes, or getting yours poked out. [Recently unbanned due to the illogical / emotional moderator has been stepped down, not worth going back though. Maybe I'll feel the urge if I see Ron in the debates again...) And yet their complete & utter ignorance of what he actually represents, doesn't diminish his quality in getting others to look into Austrian Economics and Libertarianism.

He essentially directs them to this very institution, or at least others that all really hark back to this place in some capacity. He gets people on the right path, and then they do the rest. (Learning etc.)

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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Consultant replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 11:11 AM

I'm also an ancap thanks to Ron Paul. 

Voting for Ron Paul is not about voting for a voluntary society politically. It's about giving him exposure to keep doing what he does best: giving people all over the world a political education.

The older I get, the less I know.
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Orthogonal replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 11:16 AM

Ron Paul's 2008 campaign was the turning point in my life from neo-con to ancap. It took a lot of time, reading and introspection, but I know for a fact that I would not be Libertarian were it not for him. I have much respect for him, even though he is a "politician", using political means.

I don't think he could ever win the presidency, let alone the primary, but I don't think that's what he needs to do. Just keep watering the tree of liberty and people will make the journey.

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Wesker1982 replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 11:47 AM

I wouldn't be an anarcho-capitalist if it wasn't for Ron Paul. This means that all the people I converted probably wouldn't be anarcho-capitalists if it wasn't for Ron Paul either. 

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DD5 replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 11:52 AM

Wesker1982:
This means that all the people I converted probably wouldn't be anarcho-capitalists if it wasn't for Ron Paul either. 

How many people did you convert?  What's your secret?

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Conza88 replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 12:13 PM

Enlightened... wink

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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Okay, so let's say 100,000+ have become ancaps or anarchs bc of RP08.  A lot more have become minarchists/constitutionalists.  No, no.  Very Bad.

What Neocons?

Several.  One out in Co, quick example.  He also supported TX gop for some dumb shit this year, don't remember what exactly, I think gop reelections.  Give me a break.

Your attacks on him for being imperfect are a reflection of your own dissatisfaction with the impact you have on the world

Oh sorry I'm not out trying to change the world like you with 10,000 posts on Mises.  wtf?  I'm supposed to try to change these zombies that believe some ferry in the sky is protecting them from falling off a cliff?  No thanks buddy.  Not wasting my time.  Life's too short.  I've got my own problems anyway like trying to survive, make a living in this statist society with jobs few and far in between and even fewer that are necessary, productive, or the least bit fulfilling thanks to the burden of unnessesary laws and regulations.

Peace.  -Cool

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K-Stigs replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 12:41 PM

Okay, so let's say 100,000+ have become ancaps or anarchs bc of RP08.  A lot more have become minarchists/constitutionalists.  No, no.  Very Bad.

Why is that bad?

EDIT: And how can you possibly know how many people have converted to specific beliefs?

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kstigs:

Okay, so let's say 100,000+ have become ancaps or anarchs bc of RP08.  A lot more have become minarchists/constitutionalists.  No, no.  Very Bad.

Why is that bad?

Given that virtually none of those minarchists/constitutionalists were ancap before, and virtually all of them were neocons or left-liberals before, it's not bad at all.  Also, a lot of them are in merely a transitional phase, and will eventually become ancap; just like it was a gradual, if relatively quick, process for a lot of us.

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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K-Stigs replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 12:48 PM

Grayson Lilburne:
Given that virtually none of those minarchists/constitutionalists were ancap before, and virtually all of them were neocons or left-liberals before, it's not bad at all.  Also, a lot of them are in merely a transitional phase, and will eventually become ancap; just like it was a gradual, if relatively quick, process for a lot of us.

Agreed. I think we all were something before we became ancaps. I'd much prefer to have a world full of minarchists/constitutionalists rather than neo-cons, prog-left, or any other of the mainstream belief systems.

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CoolUserName:
Okay, so let's say 100,000+ have become ancaps or anarchs bc of RP08.  A lot more have become minarchists/constitutionalists.  No, no.  Very Bad.

If they were neocons or progressives before they were minarchists or constitutionalists, then it's a big move in the right direction.

CoolUserName:
Oh sorry I'm not out trying to change the world like you with 10,000 posts on Mises.

This isn't about my post count.  This is about you expressing dissatisfaction for what Ron Paul does, even though what he does has absolutely no bearing on what you choose to do.  If you disagree with his approach, exercise your own.  People confuse the opportunity to speak with the obligation to criticize, and criticism as a form of production given the low barriers to participation online.

CoolUserName:
I'm supposed to try to change these zombies that believe some ferry in the sky is protecting them from falling off a cliff?

When I feel weak and defeated, I think about Ron Paul dragging himself around on the campaign trail of 2007 and 2008 in his 70s.

CoolUserName:
No thanks buddy.  Not wasting my time.  Life's too short.  I've got my own problems anyway like trying to survive, make a living in this statist society with jobs few and far in between and even fewer that are necessary, productive, or the least bit fulfilling thanks to the burden of unnessesary laws and regulations.

No time to hustle for liberty, time to criticize others for trying.  Others who ironically, helped you achieve the insight to be a critic.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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liberty student:
No time to hustle for liberty, time to criticize others for trying.

Spot-freaking-on!

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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I once heard someone say that the reasons libertarians are so underrepresented in the political sphere is that they spend so much time fighting amongst themselves since the ideology has so many layers.

Even though I don't think Paul will get elected, I support him since it's a great opportunity for him to educate people and get more people on board. His popularity especially among young people feels like a once in a lifetime opportunity and when he retires I don't know when another figure like him will emerge.

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pentahedron:
His popularity especially among young people feels like a once in a lifetime opportunity and when he retires I don't know when another figure like him will emerge.

You can make sure it doesn't stop with him.  If we all pitch in just a little bit, we can move mountains.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Ultima replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 2:10 PM

CoolUserName:
He only hurts the cause of liberty/anarchy.

CoolUserName:
For what it's worth, I didn't become anarchist till after I heard about Ron Paul.  But that doesn't mean anything because I probably would have figured it out eventually.  Who knows when it would have been? 

Ron Paul has been the #1 reason that the number of ancaps has swelled in past years.  Your own self-assurance aside, do you think they all would have "figured it out eventually" even without Paul, even though before Paul's campaign, ancap numbers were stagnant?

The Ron Paul campaign was something special.  You, and countless others, are here striving for liberty because of it.  For you to say, "He only hurts the cause of liberty/anarchy" is appalling.

That's exactly it, Lilburne. I didn't even know where I belonged intellectually speaking until I became aware of Ron Paul, since nothing else made much sense. He's the one that opened the door to AE and voluntaryism for me.

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liberty student:

CoolUserName:
Okay, so let's say 100,000+ have become ancaps or anarchs bc of RP08.  A lot more have become minarchists/constitutionalists.  No, no.  Very Bad.

If they were neocons or progressives before they were minarchists or constitutionalists, then it's a big move in the right direction.

CoolUserName:
Oh sorry I'm not out trying to change the world like you with 10,000 posts on Mises.

This isn't about my post count.  This is about you expressing dissatisfaction for what Ron Paul does, even though what he does has absolutely no bearing on what you choose to do.  If you disagree with his approach, exercise your own.  People confuse the opportunity to speak with the obligation to criticize, and criticism as a form of production given the low barriers to participation online.

CoolUserName:
I'm supposed to try to change these zombies that believe some ferry in the sky is protecting them from falling off a cliff?

When I feel weak and defeated, I think about Ron Paul dragging himself around on the campaign trail of 2007 and 2008 in his 70s.

CoolUserName:
No thanks buddy.  Not wasting my time.  Life's too short.  I've got my own problems anyway like trying to survive, make a living in this statist society with jobs few and far in between and even fewer that are necessary, productive, or the least bit fulfilling thanks to the burden of unnessesary laws and regulations.

No time to hustle for liberty, time to criticize others for trying.  Others who ironically, helped you achieve the insight to be a critic.

 

Whatev dude.  Keep ____ing the RP ____ okay.  You might as well say the same thing about Google because a simple search of anything related to anarchy or libertarianism can point someone in the right direction.  And they can easily find stuff like c4ss.org and many other sites like that.  Mises isn't the only one.

And RP ain't perfect either.  I'm just pointing out the shortcomings.  Guess what, we all have 'em. 

There have been many anarchists and agorist before RP - Konkin, Spooner, Molinari, many others.  rp spreading the word has given many a false hope that the beast known as the state can be contained and limited to certain powers.

Anyway gl.

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CoolUserName:
Whatev dude.  Keep ____ing the RP ____ okay.

Yes, you keep struggling to make a living, ok?

CoolUserName:
You might as well say the same thing about Google because a simple search of anything related to anarchy or libertarianism can point someone in the right direction.

A google search can't replace identity marketing.  Proof, the election of Obama.

CoolUserName:
And they can easily find stuff like c4ss.org and many other sites like that.  Mises isn't the only one.

C4SS isn't anarcho-capitalist, it isn't Rothbardian, it isn't Misesian.  The economics in the articles there are just barely libertarian, and it is a lot of leftist preaching.  Like it or not, LRC and Mises.org are the meccas of AE and libertarianism online.  The reason why (in my opinion) is that there is no significant competition.  People on those other sites are not very skilled at marketing ideas.  This also seems to be your issue.  You don't understand Ron Paul's role in marketing ideas.

CoolUserName:
And RP ain't perfect either.  I'm just pointing out the shortcomings.  Guess what, we all have 'em.

No one claimed Ron Paul was perfect.  Is one of your shortcomings engaging in strawmen?

CoolUserName:
There have been many anarchists and agorist before RP - Konkin, Spooner, Molinari, many others.

No one has claimed otherwise.  However, none of them have had the impact of RP.  A curious mind would ask why.

CoolUserName:
rp spreading the word has given many a false hope that the beast known as the state can be contained and limited to certain powers.

On the contrary, that is not what he spreads.  He spreads the notion that people need to be ready to defend their liberty, and they should never trust the state to stay small or to be contained.

CoolUserName:
Anyway gl.

Sounds like you need it more than me, but thanks.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Cabal replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 4:28 PM

People migrating from ideals of statism to ideals of minarchism and/or constitutionalism is not bad at all. In fact, I'd wager many ancaps today may have briefly stopped by minarchism and/or constitutionalism prior to their final destination of anarcho-capitalism. To suggest that RP being able to convert neo-liberal or statists to a more libertarian-oriented mindset is "bad" is rather absurd assuming you're a supporter of libertarianism to begin with.

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DD5 replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 5:06 PM

 

To recognize Ron Paul's contribution requires emotional discipline if you've already surpassed his compromising message.

 Once the nature of the State becomes apparent, it becomes emotionally unbearable to hear about any sort of tolerance towards it.  You must constantly remind yourself where you came from and how and what you thought just a few years ago.

I think coolUserName's attitude is perfectly understandable. 

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yuberries replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 5:27 PM

Cabal:

People migrating from ideals of statism to ideals of minarchism and/or constitutionalism is not bad at all. In fact, I'd wager many ancaps today may have briefly stopped by minarchism and/or constitutionalism prior to their final destination of anarcho-capitalism. To suggest that RP being able to convert neo-liberal or statists to a more libertarian-oriented mindset is "bad" is rather absurd assuming you're a supporter of libertarianism to begin with.

Yes, agree. In r-tard language, Ron Paul isn't stealing ancaps to minarchism, he's turning moderates and socialists to minarchism. It may be like turning slavery apologists to socialists, or rapists to sexual harassers, but its still in the right direction.

And from time to time, he does talk of "self-government" and stuff; the constitution isn't even everything for him, it's just the "social contract" (lol) that's in place right now, the one that the government is blatantly breaking. He deems that it should be respected not because it's divine scripture but because the government swore an oath to do exactly that.

That said I won't be donating cuz I'm broke, and I won't be voting either obviously. But go Ron Paul!

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RJ Miller replied on Thu, Aug 19 2010 5:41 PM

I'm in agreement with anyone who says that Ron Paul is worth standing by whether he is elected president or not. I too wouldn't have known a thing about the prospects of radical Libertarianism, the Federal Reserve, nor would I have become an Anarcho-Capitalist myself.

 

The handful or so people I managed to convert to market anarchy could only be converted because they were Paulites to begin with. I generally tend to be a non-voter, but if a Ron Paul victory leads to publicity for our ideas, then I don't see any harm done. 

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DD5:
To recognize Ron Paul's contribution requires emotional discipline if you've already surpassed his compromising message.

I think that discipline comes from doing.  People like Conza and I did during the campaign (despite not being Americans) and we continue to do today.  We know what is involved in doing.

DD5:
Once the nature of the State becomes apparent, it becomes emotionally unbearable to hear about any sort of tolerance towards it.

And yet we all suck it up and pay our taxes, and obey their laws and do what we can to get by each day.

DD5:
I think coolUserName's attitude is perfectly understandable.

I know where it comes from, but I believe it is very misguided.  When cool starts to participate, instead of viewing all non-anarchists with contempt, then he may see things very differently.  Either way, his criticism won't stop Ron Paul, and his lack of material and significant support for Ron Paul won't prevent RP from continuing to draw people to Mises and Rothbard, Woods and Rockwell, Murphy and Hoppe.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Well we can agree to disagree.  I don't try to persuade anybody from getting involved in politics.  If someone wants to waste their time, that's their problem.

Minarchism is just another form of statism.

What impact has RP had today?  Still the same fools in office, nothing else has change.  Talk is cheap.

RP has more than endorsed his son, a typical politician.  Sure, he's better than the other guy, but now we're just talking lesser of two evils again.

What specifically don't you like about c4ss's ideas?  Leftist is a vague word.  Do you think Kinsella is leftist or anti-libertarian for joining them?

Do you think agorism is anti-libertarian as well?

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