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Japan gun control: why does it work??

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rosstaylor Posted: Fri, Oct 1 2010 6:05 AM

Japan has strict gun control - why does it work over there??

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Edward replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 6:34 AM

You are assuming a causal relationship between the gunban and low crime rates?

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In Japan, yes. 

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Why would gun control stop crime in Japan? They could always use samurai swords. And if they banned those, they could always use karate.

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Vitor replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 7:14 AM

Japanese people love guns, a lot of them enjoy a shooting range when they come to the USA.

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No one has answered my question yet

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What about crimes committed by the government? For example, taxation is armed robbery. Why is the Japanese government (the new samurai class, obviously) allowed to have guns but nobody else is allowed to have them? They want to make it impossible for people to defend themselves against the government. 

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.....that's not the answer i'm looking for. I'm asking you why is Japan crime rate so low after they implemented strict gun control.

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Because the government is organized crime. They just get to "legalize" their actions. My guess is that the government has become more oppressive (higher taxes, more intervention in private affairs, etc.), so there is not really a decrease in crime. The government is just playing word games.

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Well, since we're being very unspecific here, I'll say this: gun control is just one among many factors that influence crime rates. If you live in a society in which "anti-social" (read: criminal) mindsets are discouraged and punished from early childhood on, banning the tools to commit crimes may not have the same adverse effect that it may exert in societies that are more prone to crime and violence.

It's all about ceteris paribus. Would the Japanese people be safer with guns than without? Praxeology confirms this, but it can't answer to which extent this would be the case. What it does tell us is that the Japanese people are not safe because of, but despite their anti-gun policies.

Unless you can show why the laws of human action do not apply to Japan, just appealing to its low crime rates will not do you any good.


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why is Japan crime rate so low after they implemented strict gun control

Was the crime rate in Japan high before gun control?  Just because the crime rate is low in Japan and Japan has gun control dosent mean that gun control has lowered crime.  There are countless factors that affect the crime rate.

.....that's not the answer i'm looking for

Save us some time and tell us what is the answer you are looking for.  It seems that you already have one in mind and any other explanation from us would be found lacking.

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Sphairon gave an answer that was what I was looking for - childhood upbringing. I never said that I support gun control, I was just wondering why it seems to work in Japan.

What other factors lower crime in Japan? i was surprised how crimes didn't increase in the lost decade (2 lost decades to be specific).

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Vitor replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 7:41 AM

Swiss has loosy gun control - why there isn't a civil war there?

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Even in the US, you can see that gun control leads to more crimes by the government. States with fascist gun control laws like California have higher taxes (bigger/more frequent armed robbery by the government) and much bigger governments than states like Alabama. Why? Because states like California can get away with higher taxes when its subjects are defenseless. That's the whole point of gun control.

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I don't believe in gun control either - but someone brought this up when I was discussing it with him. And from what I have gathered there is a strict gun control in Japan and the lowest crime rate amongst the first world nations. That is why I was curious why it seemed to work.

 

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents were rounded up and exterminated. 

"In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians were rounded up and exterminated.

"Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945,13 million Jews and others were rounded up and exterminated.(see Footnote)

"China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were rounded up and exterminated.

"Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981,100,000 Mayan Indians were rounded up and exterminated.

"Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979,300,000 Christians were rounded up and exterminated.

"Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977,one million 'educated' people were rounded up and exterminated."

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I never said i support gun control, what I asked was why it seemed to work in Japan. You're the only one here who has not contributed to the discussion, only made some comments that is not related to what i asked. 

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that last comment was for vitor.

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Vitor replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 9:43 AM

My comments were related, just not in your face related. 

 

So, there is very little to hunt in Japan and no  extremely isolated areas, unlike the USA, so this reduces somewhat the need a japanese person may feel for a gun. Not much of a gun culture, although they appreciate guns in sort of a geeky and fearful fashion.

And they have a thing for obeying authority and not enjoying the hassle of doing something prohibited. But Im sure the guys from Yakuza and such have no big problems getting some toys, if there is a real demand for something, government prohibition easily fails, but in this case the goverment prohibited something that the people don't have an urge for.

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Kakugo replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 10:09 AM

The reason is simple. Japan, very much like China, implemented weapons control at a very early age.

For example during the Edo period ouside of the warrior and noble castes the only persons allowed to own weapons were the village chiefs and a few others (mostly government agents of various kinds). Not even ordinary policemen were allowed to have weapons: they were armed with sticks and a strange device meant to stop cutting weapons whose name now eludes me. Anyone found in possession of a weapon could expect no mercy. Of course criminals always found ways around this.

At least the government of the time was honest about weapons control: it was done to discourage popular riots, very common during that period of history. A small band of  (relatively) well armed and trained bushi could put down a peasant uprising quickly. It must be remembered that despite all the present jazz about samurai and ninja possessing superhuman powers, Japan up to the XIX century was a pathetic military power. The shogun ruling the country could not afford a standing army apart from his personal household and wanted each daimyo (feudal noble/warlord) to have as few bushi as possible. Once the Chinese/Mongolian threat evaporated and once the Tokugawa family gained complete control of the country these reforms were accelerated.

It must also be remembered that traditionally Japanese authorities have had all sorts of "tacit agreements" with criminal cartels. This stems from the aforementioned lack of resources which plagued Japan for centuries. If criminals "keep to their own" and don't become too much of a nuisance they are usually left alone. That's why "self-policing" became an integral part of the Japanese criminal culture with elaborate rituals and even a sort of "dressing code" for members of organized crime cartels.

Of course this doesn't mean criminals don't get their hands on firearms: they do. They are smuggled from Russia or, much more frequently, US military installations. But firearms are usually reserved for "special occasions". Criminals usually prefer "dirt cheap" weapons, like ordinary kitchen knifes. They are easy to obtain and kill silently. The society at large must know as little as possible if you catch my drift.

Together we go unsung... together we go down with our people
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Andrew replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 10:11 AM

The fact that they are a homogeneous nation, people may be socially scolded for having guns. Plus police have way more power over in Japan. If I heard correctly, they can hold you for 48 hours if suspected of crime. That is going to cut down on crime rates. Plus the Japanese have a very socially permissive culture and are not as quick to snap, hence not having a gun there would be less violent  shootings. I don't have any empirical evidence, just speculation. Historically, the Japanese have had a pretty rigid social caste system, with only the higher, non-peseant population having access to "weapons". It is ingrained in their culture, hence it works unlike the U.S. 

Democracy is nothing more than replacing bullets with ballots

 

If Pro is the opposite of Con. What is the opposite of Progress?

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Vitor replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 10:47 AM

Where the hell is the "suggest as answer" option? Kakugo knows his stuff.

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Thank you, Kakugo and Andrew! Those were very good answers! As I thought, it had something to do more with their culture and upbringing. Well-thought answers. 

Vitor, you should read your own posts. The question i asked was about Japan - not Switzerland or how whether the Japanese love shooting ranges in the US. Read your own comments and see for yourself if they were related to the questions that i asked. 

Please don't make uneducated comments, thank you very much wink

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limitgov replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 11:50 AM

Your question is seriously flawed.

How do you know gun control is responsible for lower crime rates in Japan?

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mwalsh replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 1:02 PM

@Kakugo

It should be the sai, I know when I took Shinjimatsu Karate, thats how it was presented, and this was the weapon I prefered out of all the ones we learned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_(weapon)

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Japanese people get lithium in their water.  Maybe the low crime rates are due to a docile population.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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In Yokosuka, I walked across the street before the walk sign came on and everyone was staring at me like I had just assaulted someone. I think Japan would have a low crime rate whether guns are illegal or not.

"I cannot prove, but am prepared to affirm, that if you take care of clarity in reasoning, most good causes will take care of themselves, while some bad ones are taken care of as a matter of course." -Anthony de Jasay

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There are a few reasons. Using government statistics, Japan has 1.5 homicides per 100,000 people, versus about 7.9 in the US(though as low as 0.8 in some states). However, this number in itself is extremely misleading. The Japanese government has a tendency to vastly underestimate relative to the US government, so the actual homicide rate is probably closer to 3.5. Japan also pays much more attention to the quality of their cops than the US does, there are also, on average, more of them. Japan also has a very tight conformist culture, keeping most people out of crime altogether. On top of that, the culture is extremely homogeneous in Japan, so there is little internal conflict. There is a lot more going on than just gun laws.

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Clayton replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 1:48 PM

 

Japan has strict gun control - why does it work over there??

Hans Hoppe:

... it is easy to understand why a desire to control a state might exist. For whoever is a monopolist of final arbitration within a given territory can make laws. And he who canlegislate can also tax. Surely, this is an enviable position.

... Suppose you and your friends happen to be in control of such an extraordinary institution. What would you do to maintain your position (provided you didn't have any moral scruples)? You would certainly use some of your tax-income to hire some thugs. First: to make peace among your subjects so that they stay productive and there is something to tax in the future. But more importantly, because you might need these thugs for your ownprotection should the people wake up from their dogmatic slumber and challenge you. [Bold added]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hoppe/hoppe18.html

The State has a powerful interest in ensuring that its slaves do not kill each other.

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Craig replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 4:23 PM

You've raised an interesting point, but I'm not sure what that point is? 'Japan has strict gun control.' Correct. 'Why does it work over there?' Why does what work over there? Gun control, or lower crime rates? Compared to what? Are you putting the lower crime rates in Japan compared to, say, the US down to gun control?

Basically, there is a saying: The nail that sticks out gets hammered down, hence the social stigma attached to 'sticking out' in any form. The boundaries are always fluid, but to depart in any major way, such as criminal acts with guns, would be shameful - and there is nothing worse in Japan than to bring shame on yourself and your family. In the US, along with other post-Christian countries, the nail that sticks out gets recognized & applauded, (Is Paris Hilton, for instance, important in any way? No, but she is on the nightly news once a week, and what glossy magazine worth it's salt doesn't have something in it about her every month. Lindsay Lohan the same) hence the propensity for people, following the existential philosophy of Sartre, the Marquis de Sade, and Stirner, which still governs us, to 'do what thou wilt, harmful to others or not.' Basically, ideas have consequences, including ideas about guns. The State in the West has a vested interest in a certain level of criminal activity as it increases the centrality of power as well. The State in Japan is interested in criminal convictions - about 99% of all cases that go before the courts in Japan result in a guilty verdict, and in a country where the convict becomes a non-person in prison, with none of the 5-star resort style benefits that criminals get in this country, for instance, it's no wonder that the only crimes that take place for the most part are genuine crimes of passion - someone just snaps, kills the offending party, then hands themselves into police, fully expecting jail or worse. 

So it's a culture-wide thing, not restricted to some silly assertion about gun control. Further, a quick reading of Japanese history would show that change in its history is not fluid, but a radical, sudden shift that takes place as a result of some external stimulus that changes it almost overnite. And the crime rate in Japan in times past has been very high. There is no ethical, meaning theological, reason why this won't happen in the future.

Just quickly, there is no honor in guns, which is why Oda Nobunaga was so detested during the Sengoku.

"The opposite to law is not grace, it is lawlessness." Dr. RJ Rushdoony, "Institutes of Biblical Law"

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Craig replied on Fri, Oct 1 2010 4:40 PM

This is a good analysis of Japan PRIOR TO the introduction of guns, as most Daimyo for the previous 800 years were nothing but petty warlords, of the kinds we see in Somalia today. Let it not be forgotten that Honda wouldn't exist today if they had've been wiped out 700 years ago as was the plan at the time - one warlord going up against another.

BUT, as an answer to the question raised, it's irrelevant. What you've demonstrated is that you can quote Hoppe at length, and then editorialize at the end - congratulations, champ, well done. But if you have a bee in your bonnet about State power in general, as you obviously appear to, find a street corner & a soapbox and preach it, brother, from there - you can quote Hoppe at the people ad nauseum then! Either that, or start another list.

"The opposite to law is not grace, it is lawlessness." Dr. RJ Rushdoony, "Institutes of Biblical Law"

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Craig:
Either that, or start another list.

I wasn't aware that the content of this list was at your discretion.

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Clayton replied on Sat, Oct 2 2010 2:13 AM

BUT, as an answer to the question raised, it's irrelevant.

I'd be interested to know why you think that. I quoted Hoppe giving reasons why the State imposes "peace", perhaps you can respond with reasons why my quote of Hoppe is irrelevant.

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Even pretending that the crime rates dropped specifically due to a causal link with gun control, you have to ask yourself what other kinds of violent crime are happening. Who do you think calls the police when someone gets stabbed in a bad part of town? Not the criminal. Not the victim. Because, for the most part, no one in 'bad' neighborhoods wants to be known for calling the police. When neighbors/etc. hear gunshots, they're the ones who call. Violent actions with a knife, bat, or any other silent weapon and unheard and therefore are not reported. And you do also realize that the government usually tells you the crime rate, right? It's like how countries with socialized healthcare always distributed information about how cheap (rationed) their healthcare is.

If someone wants to hurt you, they're gonna find a way to do so. No one gets shot and puts the gun on trial. Humans can hurt without guns, but guns can't hurt without humans.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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replied on Sat, Oct 2 2010 6:35 AM

Japan has the highest average iq in the world - 108. Intelligent people prefer to not resort to violence, more often than not.

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Jackson replied on Sat, Oct 2 2010 10:46 AM

^ I've yet to see a post made from this person that I would consider worth the few seconds it took to look over it.

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My Buddy replied on Sat, Oct 2 2010 11:06 AM

108 is the highest IQ average in the world? Really? I thought the highest average was around 120.

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My Buddy:

108 is the highest IQ average in the world? Really? I thought the highest average was around 120.

 

I don't know where he gets that number from, but according to Richard Lynn's work Hong Kong is in the lead with an average iq of 107 followed by South Korea and then Japan.

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Craig replied on Sat, Oct 2 2010 7:01 PM

"I'd be interested to know why you think that. I quoted Hoppe giving reasons why the State imposes "peace", perhaps you can respond with reasons why my quote of Hoppe is irrelevant."

Once again, becoz it didn't answer the question. I would've thought that was obvious, but obviously not. Instead of answering the question about gun control in Japan, and why it works there as opposed to elsewhere, and that WAS the question in essence, you've simply answered the question about your own personal biases. If you can show how authentically AnCap you are in the process by quoting Hoppe, that somehow justifies you? Sorry, but that doesn't hold water. If you used that answer to that question in an exam, you know what you'd get...duckegg.

 

"The opposite to law is not grace, it is lawlessness." Dr. RJ Rushdoony, "Institutes of Biblical Law"

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Craig replied on Sat, Oct 2 2010 7:16 PM

"I wasn't aware that the content of this list was at your discretion."

Am I annoyed at this response? Damn straight! I go after Clayton for doing nothing other than revealing his own biases in answer to a question raised by someone else, and Mr Moderator decides to step in with, apparently, the only argument they've got, and that's the 'content' of their contribution to this list.

Maybe Mr Moderator might consider looking at the nature of the argument I raised, and consider asking Clayton to stick to the topic at hand, rather than simply revealing his own personal biases....unless, of course, Mr Moderator & Clayton share the same biases. I think I've just found the crux of the issue, don't you?

"The opposite to law is not grace, it is lawlessness." Dr. RJ Rushdoony, "Institutes of Biblical Law"

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How do you know gun control is responsible for lower crime rates in Japan?

He doesn't and thus there is no reason to answer the question. /thread

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