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Nielsio Posted: Wed, Oct 20 2010 6:06 PM

Post things here that don't neccessarily deserve their own thread.

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Nielsio replied on Wed, Oct 20 2010 6:08 PM

Apparently Reuters is posting Youtube content now, in the form of moderated discussions.

 

This one is particularly awful:

(Lee Doren has an account on Youtube called howtheworldworks and he is a libertarian of sorts)

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Nielsio replied on Wed, Oct 20 2010 9:09 PM

Murphy vs Krugman debate sponsorship rally

(from Bob's channel)

 

So funny!

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Nielsio replied on Fri, Oct 22 2010 5:30 PM

Schiff debates a Lefty who thinks FED + big government = free market. #facepalm

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Lewis S. replied on Fri, Oct 22 2010 6:16 PM

On that video, it got me to thinking why it's so difficult some times for us to make any headway with a lot of people.  Most folks want to give the outward appearance that they are in the know, that in fact they have a good, educated grasp of the issues.  They are persuaded by the technical because it sounds more academic.  Machine gunning statistics at another person is what now passes for skilled debate, and this is what Keynesians do.

How many times in that video did Newman's statistics violate ceterus parabis?  How many times was he correlating statistics and assuming causation?  It happens over and over again and it makes your eyes glaze over.  But the laymen doesn't have time to consider these logical fallacies for what they are - he's accustomed, in fact conditioned - to accept statistical citation and mathematical explanation as a superior argument.  "Facts" are more important, says the Keynesian.  Well, yes, facts are important, but what do the facts mean and are they relevant?  Most people understand little in the way of economics; they are persuaded by "fact"-spewing people like Newman

I think this is a major obstacle for Austrian economics.  When a person cites statistical relationship X, Y, or Z we simply don't have enough time in a such a forum to explain the flawed methodology behind its construction, and sometimes we come off as denying the "facts" as the two clowns in the video tried to point out. 

Anybody's thoughts, here?  Or am I selling us short?

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Schiff debates a Lefty who thinks FED + big government = free market. #facepalm

And his prescription for the economy?....Investment in infrastructure, specifically "smart" investment (whatever THAT is) in green technologies.  Nice to know there's someone out there genius enough to know what's best for the economy.   We should just put this guy in charge, he and his Soviet-style five year plan.  What are we thinking?

The productivity argument is interesting though---i.e. that American productivity has risen, though wages have not.  I haven't heard this one before, or at least recently.  Mr. Schiff argues, unconvincingly, that we know productivity indeed HASN'T increased---because, after all, the U.S. runs a significant trade deficit.  He also says he doesn't believe the government productivity data:  an argument which is definately to be considered seriously, though here Mr. Schiff substantiates it only with his trade deficit argument.  I would like to find the answer to this "U.S. productivity has risen, but wages have not" argument.

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I would like to find the answer to this "U.S. productivity has risen, but wages have not" argument.

Income increasingly comes from non-wage sources.

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Income increasingly comes from non-wage sources.

Ah, yes.  Of course.  Thanks!

My FedEx delivery person said that she owns her FedEx truck (i.e. I guess FedEx is set up like a franchise), and was complaining that FedEx doesn't pay for her health insurance.  I quickly informed her that if they DID pay her health insurance, her wage/income would be less than at present, because FedEx would have to come out of pocket for it. 

She looked at me kind of stunned, surprised that her view of the world had been so matter of factly challenged, but silently accepted my statement (whether she believed it is a different matter). 

Felt good to politely interfere with, and hopefully change, someone's economic ignorance.

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Anybody's thoughts, here?  Or am I selling us short?

Personally, I think it's impossible to know what different viewers will respond to, and what will resonate with them---though your point is a good one.

I think it's important to have ready, memorable answers to the basic Keynesian/statist talking points.  For example, in this debate where Mr. Newman goes into the whole "financial deregulation caused the financial crisis" bit, or how he talks about his magic infrastructure spending program, or how the rich should finance government stimulus, or how stimulus is required because "we don't want another Great Depression".  All the standard nauseating stuff.

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Nielsio:
Schiff debates a Lefty who thinks FED + big government = free market. #facepalm

That was painfull to watch.  Doug Henwood seems clueless about the basics of economics.

Am I the only person who thinks it is ironic that he runs an outfit called the Left Business Observer and he doesn't have a single fulltime employee?

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Sieben replied on Fri, Oct 22 2010 8:10 PM

Schiff sucks at debating. I'm sorry, but I've never seen a 1v1 debate with any of the Austrians or Free Market guys where they destroyed their opponents. This is embarrassing.

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Am I the only person who thinks it is ironic that he runs an outfit called the Left Business Observer and he doesn't have a single fulltime employee?

More like typical.

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chloe732 replied on Sat, Oct 23 2010 12:15 AM

Apparently Reuters is posting Youtube content now, in the form of moderated discussions.

This one is particularly awful:

Indeed.  At the end I drew a heavy sigh and wondered where these people come from.  The least knowledgeable Mises forum member is a genius (me) compared to that woman and the interventionist Vblogger.  The nerdy guy tried to talk sensibly, but I think he should have just walked away instead.

I nominate this video as "very bad", give it a negative 7.2.

"The market is a process." - Ludwig von Mises, as related by Israel Kirzner.   "Capital formation is a beautiful thing" - Chloe732.

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hugolp replied on Sat, Oct 23 2010 12:56 AM

Schiff sucks at debating. I'm sorry, but I've never seen a 1v1 debate with any of the Austrians or Free Market guys where they destroyed their opponents. This is embarrassing.

 

Schiff is very good for low level simple debating, he is not and does not pretend to be an academic. There is people who dont understand and wont even bother with an academic debate. Schiff is great for that.

 

Also, the interview was edited, obviously to make Schiff look bad.

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I nominate this video as "very bad", give it a negative 7.2.

It's shovel ready.  

In this case, it's the kind of shovel ready that requires hip waders.

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hugolp:
Schiff sucks at debating. I'm sorry, but I've never seen a 1v1 debate with any of the Austrians or Free Market guys where they destroyed their opponents. This is embarrassing.

Schiff is very good for low level simple debating, he is not and does not pretend to be an academic.

I gotta agree with Sieben.  I have been listening to Schiff for about 3 years, and he is not a very good debater.   It doesnt have anything to do with being an academic.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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EDIT: I didn't make this, by the way.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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chloe732 replied on Sun, Oct 24 2010 10:21 PM

Sparks goes to the White House:   BRAVO, FANTASTIC, STUPENDOUS, INSPIRING.  This should be made into a movie.  Thanks for posting.  MORE!  MORE!  MORE! yesyesyes

In addition to the excellent content of the entire video, watch Sparks's gesture at the the beginning when he says "That sounds delightful" (at :28).

I hope this gets 2 million views. 

"The market is a process." - Ludwig von Mises, as related by Israel Kirzner.   "Capital formation is a beautiful thing" - Chloe732.

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Vitor replied on Sun, Oct 24 2010 10:48 PM

It's really hard to be a good austrian debater when the people around has little notion of logic, cause, effect, etc. And there is also the fact that austrians acknowledge the knowledge issue, that nobody can be certain about the future.

But then the other side will claim that goverment can impose conditions and create such future scenario and then it becomes almost useless to try to explain why things aren't that simple.

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It's really hard to be a good austrian debater when the people around has little notion of logic, cause, effect, etc.

Speaking of debating, do you guys know any good books on debating technique?

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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Sieben replied on Mon, Oct 25 2010 7:57 AM
Brian:
Speaking of debating, do you guys know any good books on debating technique?
Be right. You have no idea how huge an advantage that is. I'm not just being cheeky... I think you can win any debate with average debating skill so long as you have the right arguments. "Average" means that you understand your opponent 100%, don't drop any issues, and weigh all the arguments.
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Nielsio replied on Mon, Oct 25 2010 8:45 AM

And don't make it personal, instead focus only on the logic of the arguments. The point is actually to inform the listener.

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Giant_Joe replied on Mon, Oct 25 2010 9:20 AM

Speaking of debating, do you guys know any good books on debating technique?

Not great for debating technique, but they carry a lot of merit and are very useful:

1) Getting to Yes - a book on negotiation)

2) Sun Tzu's Art of War - Some versions of it might have a few essays or extra tidbits of info to make the wisdom in it more accessible.

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Almost everything can be a logical fallacy.  Just keep accusing your opponent of such. yes

(joking of course)

In States a fresh law is looked upon as a remedy for evil. Instead of themselves altering what is bad, people begin by demanding a law to alter it. ... In short, a law everywhere and for everything!

~Peter Kropotkin

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boniek replied on Mon, Oct 25 2010 9:39 AM

Nielsio:

And don't make it personal, instead focus only on the logic of the arguments. The point is actually to inform the listener.

 

I would argue that the point of any public debate is to inform the public not to convert your interlocutor :). In private debates without any observers I agree with you though.

"Your freedom ends where my feelings begin" -- ???
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Eric080 replied on Mon, Oct 25 2010 10:23 AM

Cenk is a moron.  I loathe the Young Turks smiley

"And it may be said with strict accuracy, that the taste a man may show for absolute government bears an exact ratio to the contempt he may profess for his countrymen." - de Tocqueville
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Epicurus ibn Kalhoun:
Almost everything can be a logical fallacy.

You are the expert when it comes to making logical fallacies.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Do you feel better about yourself now? yes
 

In States a fresh law is looked upon as a remedy for evil. Instead of themselves altering what is bad, people begin by demanding a law to alter it. ... In short, a law everywhere and for everything!

~Peter Kropotkin

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Epicurus ibn Kalhoun:
Do you feel better about yourself now? yes

Absolutely.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Great video. Great thoughts, great words. Makes perfect sense.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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Esuric replied on Tue, Oct 26 2010 5:06 AM

Let’s assume that increasing the supply of currency may lead to inflation

Yeah, let’s just “assume” that this is true.

Schiff’s performance was fine. The problem is that he’s debating clueless leftists that don’t understand inflation, wages (which are determined by productivity at the margin), prices, or the concept of warranted investment. If the government needs to spend trillions in order to stimulate “green investments” then it’s simply not warranted, by definition. There’s only so much you can do, with a limited amount of time, when dealing with idiots whose solution for everything is "tax the rich!" (the top 1% pay 40% of the nations taxes).

"They (the banks) are sitting on oodles of money that they don't want to share."

"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."

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Nielsio replied on Tue, Oct 26 2010 8:32 AM

Brian wrote:

Great video. Great thoughts, great words. Makes perfect sense.

(click twice to view)

 

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Nielsio replied on Tue, Oct 26 2010 9:47 AM

Great video explaining the market vs government force. It's 'old' (2008) but good.

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Sieben replied on Tue, Oct 26 2010 10:16 AM

This thread is ANARCHY!

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Absolutely.

I agree.  The truth is irrelevant, only profits matter. cool

In States a fresh law is looked upon as a remedy for evil. Instead of themselves altering what is bad, people begin by demanding a law to alter it. ... In short, a law everywhere and for everything!

~Peter Kropotkin

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Nielsio replied on Wed, Oct 27 2010 9:00 PM

Bob Murphy posts follow-up (warning: hilarity).

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Is this debate going to be streaming live on the Mises websites?

This thread was a really good idea by the way, Nielsio. We should do one every month.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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Sieben replied on Wed, Oct 27 2010 10:45 PM

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

On a side note, are they seriously having a debate? This could BE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Sieben replied on Wed, Oct 27 2010 10:53 PM

Oh gosh its real. This is so amazing and terrifying at the same time. The stakes are so high. I'm so giddy!!!

I've never seen murphy in a debate... I hope he's better than walter block (who I love to death, but lets be honest).

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Nielsio replied on Wed, Oct 27 2010 11:34 PM

Brian wrote:

Is this debate going to be streaming..

Krugman hasn't accepted yet.

See:

http://consultingbyrpm.com/blog/2010/10/krugman-challenge-updat.html

 

This thread was a really good idea by the way, Nielsio. We should do one every month.

Yeah, we should. The idea is based on another forum I frequent.

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