After a year of private study, I'm really feeling drawn to a career in economics. I realize I'm the only one who can really answer this question for myself, but I'm looking for input from others who have maybe faced my dilemma. If I wanted to work as a corporate economist, research, policy advisor, etc., etc., should I just suck it up and learn all the Keynesian stuff? (I'd remain a closet Austrian, of course haha.)
I'm not in a position to change universities anyway, but it looks like only a few schools in the nation even teach free-market thought these days, and none of them lean Austrian. Assuming I go to grad school, there are some potential opportunities to get away from strictly Keynesian-style economics (to be fair, my school also offers Marxian econ courses hahaha), but that is all skipping ahead quite a bit. For now though, if I indeed wish to earn an econ degree, it appears I gotta suck it up.
I know none of you can answer this for me, but basically I'm at a crossroads. I'm 2 years from completing a degree in health sciences, and honestly I'd need to do a masters following that to compete for any of the desirable jobs. (Seems to be the case for every major nowadays, but that's neither here nor there...) My problem is that my interest has really fizzled out over the past couple of years. I find myself reading more and more economics because I find it more interesting and fun. (Then again, I've been reading Austrians and Chicago School authors, maybe I'd wanna shoot myself if I read Krugman at the like?) I don't know what to do!
Gah... maybe I should just double major? More debt of course, but more options...
Opinions? Advice?
I don't know how it is where you are, but at my uni the econ course is very maths intensive, and I have it on good authority that it is the same pretty much everywhere else in the UK. Heavy on maths means neoclassical in Micro and Keynesian/mainstream in Macro. Oh and then there's the econometrics. Also the first year we did courses on Stats and Maths.
You should consider a degree in Economic History, that can get you away from some of the maths and towards more essay type stuff. And if you're lucky, you'll cover some of the Austrian school. I can tell you this, in my first year at uni, I learned more from our 1 module on economic history than our other 4 on other topics. (the sixth being a sociology module)
My school is probably middle of the road on the math. Basically I'd need to take one more statistics course and a calculus course. While I understand and agree with the far-reduced presence of math in the Austrian school, math in general isn't something I shy away from. I actually find statistics pretty interesting since they are usually manipulated or completely ignored to push some agenda. So it is interesting for me to try to cut through the BS and see what a set of data really shows, not what some biased interpreter claims it shows.
My school is a bit limited. They simply offer an economics major with a few choices of minors if one is interested in that. There aren't majors in econometrics, economic history, etc. Just plain ol' economics. On the plus side, students can choose from a wide variety of classes to obtain the requirements for the economics degree. Some of them look quite interesting, however none of them lean Austrian, and I'd be pretty surprised if any of them even leaned Chicago-style.
Well, after looking at the courses offered, there are actually three courses on econ history.
Awesome! It's my experience that economic historians are usually more broad in their views because they encounter much of the classical and other pro free market literature in their readings. ymmv though
edit: also, who is that in your profile pic?!
Yeah, I've decided to go down the route of a major in political science and a minor in philosophy. I'm hoping that this takes me to a think tank. That for me would be the ultimate.
You should go for it. I know some of this forum would point to the debt, but if it's something you really want to do, and if it's really only do-able with a university economics degree, then I think you should just bite the bullet.
It might otherwise be very difficult to even get your foot in the door.
I almost dropped out of school because I was so disappointed with what we were "learning." But I discovered that trying to enjoy what you're being taught will motivate you to study mainstream econ. Since neoclassical microeconomics and Keynesian, monetarist, and new classical macroeconomics are in vogue, you have to become fluent in these schools of thought in order to be able to critique them thoroughly, not just on an epistemological front like many Austrians do. Use that to motivate you and I think you'll enjoy wading and arguing your way through college.
Political Atheists Blog
@Fred - My avatar is this guy haha. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhEJA-n9Xvw
@Schnapps- That's kinda what I figured about getting the ol' foot in the door. If I finish my health degree and still have a strong interest in econ (which I predict I will), I'd have to get another undergrad degree in econ before moving forward anyway. The debt obviously sucks, but there are opportunities avaialble to help me minimize it. I've already sunk a couple years into health, and it is still interesting to me (just not on the level of economics), so I thinking finishing it would be beneficial. I'm leaning toward the double-major, but it's already too late into the term to start adding econ courses, so I've got a couple months to left to think things over.
@kaju- That's basically what I was thinking, and I've had to use this technique before. It is very beneficial to understand the more in-depth workings of ideas one disagrees with.
What exactly can be accomplished with a Political Science degree? I am completely flabbergasted as to why anyone would go that route, no offense.
^ I'd agree here. If you don't want to get an econ degree, get a degree in another field where you can get a job that's worth the time/money spent studying in college. Finance, accounting, chemistry, mathematics, etc.
^Alas, this is another thing I'm sadly realizing! There are really no desirable jobs for those with an undergrad health degree either. Meanwhile, someone with an undergrad econ degree can at least get an entry-level job as an analyst, advisor, etc.
My feelings are that I enjoy econ just as much as health sciences (actually more these days), so what is the shame in going for a field that offers much, much better compensation?
Health sciences? Are you a science-minded person? Maybe do Chem... just take a few classes, see what you like.
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but this is just to get back to Filc and kaju.
I live in socialist Canada, which means the college I go to is heavily subsidized, which means that a semester costs less than 2k. Considering that I'm being taught directly by professors in small classes (not TA's), I've found the direct debate/dialogues to be invaluable.
I have a class with the head of the econ department this semester. He's a behavioral economist. There's 10 people in the whole class and the class is run as an open discussion. Pretty awesome.
I met a bright physics major from Yale who refused to study economics from his school even though it was his passion. He claimed he would only major in economics if he could learn real economics. I remember listening to a Hoppe lecture in which he tried to persuade individuals from studying economics at mainstream institutions and instead making headway into subjects like law and sociology.
Read until you have something to write...Write until you have nothing to write...when you have nothing to write, read...read until you have something to write...Jeremiah
I've taken some chem (and lots of biology), but really none of it tickles me like I hoped it would. Definitely never given even the slightest thought to chemical egineering. A path like that would be 100% for the money, not something that I actually find personally interesting. Too bad, huh? Haha...
I've been talking to my parents, girlfriend, and a friend who just complete his undergrad in econ (who surprisingly still believes in free markets). Basically no one is too surprised and they are encouraging me to pursue econ. The truth is that there are no worthwhile job opportunities with my particular health science program, or at least none that are financially appealing to me haha. (We're talking the same kinda money I could make with no degree at all.) I also don't see myself pursuing a masters in health, as my interest has just been declining so much over the past year.
I've completed enough courses to have the health minor, so I'm thinking I will switch over to econ. Worst case scenario: If I graduate and somehow absolutely hate econ careers, I can still go take my certified strength and conditioning specialist's certification, because they simply require any type of bachelors degree. (Oh, I'm a kinesiology major, by the way.) I'd have to study a little harder for it probably, but I honestly already have the knowledge base at this point. So, I'd be able to choose between an an entry-level analysis or advising job, or be broke athletic trainer haha. Maybe moonlight as a trainer on the weekends.
Sounds good to me. What do you guys think?
krazy kaju:Since neoclassical microeconomics and Keynesian, monetarist, and new classical macroeconomics are in vogue, you have to become fluent in these schools of thought in order to be able to critique them thoroughly, not just on an epistemological front like many Austrians do.
That's fantastic Kaju, we so need more people doing that.
What do you want to do after you graduate?
If you have a degree in economics then your options are limited - especially if you don't have a PhD. Basically, if you have that PhD, then you can do 3 things with an economics degree: 1. you can teach; 2. you can get a job with the government; 3. you can get a fellowship position at some NGO. If you want to teach Austrian economics, then that basically disqualifies you from both 1 and 2. If you don't have a PhD in economics, then you'll be stuck waiting tables or working retail. You won't go anywhere with out that PhD; no offense. You can try to get a job at some small university, but you won't likely get it. If you want to be a closet Austrian and teach mainstream economics, then your options will grow. Would you like to do this though?
For me, learning economics - especially austrian economics - is something that is more enjoyable on the side. You'd be better off choosing a different major and just applying your non formal education with your formal education. Majoring in economics, as an Austrian, is a career killer. For every Austrian professor that has a stable job and is able to teach how they want to, there is probably several fold more aspiring professors that have a degree which is not conducive to their current career.
Don't let me, or anyone else here, stop you - if that's what you really want to do.
I would have to disagree with FunkedUp... I currently study economics and philosophy at the university of texas in dallas and Austrian economics is big in Texas. My professors here are neoclassicals but even they say that Austrian Economics is growing rapidly. At the University of Dallas, the econmoic professor chair is an Austrian Economist, Samuel Bostaph. I have talked to him over email and I asked him about Austrian Economic professors and the demand for them. Then I said that trying to find someone who teaches Austrian Economics is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. He replied saying this "It will get better. We were right about the Great Recession. Many finance professionals are aware of that, if academics are not--or refuse to abandon the sunk costs in their erroneous macro. Austrian programs will grow in the future."
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Production is 'anarchistic' - Ludwig von Mises
FunkedUp, I beg to differ.
First of all having bachelors degree entitles you to teach nowhere. At least, not on the college level.
Secondly, in addition to a job with the government there are plenty of opportunities for a economics major that may be considered enjoyable and beneficial even if they aren't necessarily paid evangelization of Austrianism. For example, according to this list econ majors are second only to engineering types and applied math types in earnings. Ohh and Physicists. Easily economics is the least math-y thing on that list even at math-intensive schools. The math required for econ is always less than engineering and physics. And according to this study economics majors beat many other more-mathy majors including engineers when you look at career highs. Yes, engineers. You know the guys who have 80 credit majors.
In light of all this, I think some econ majors working in hedge funds, etc, have long hours. But this is besides the point. Economics is not a bad degree. It's no engineering or computer science but if your passionate about it, it's well worth it financially.
Keep in mind that some one who cares about economics will do well in it and be at the top of the range of economics students as opposed to someone who tries to be more "practical" and becomes an engineer instead of an econ major and is in the middle of the engineering range.
Just wanted to dispel those myths. And if you do get into a PhD program you have one of the best and well paying job markets for Professors in the world. Not too bad. Not too bad at all.
What is your motivation for studying health sciences?
Nerditarian: FunkedUp, I beg to differ. First of all having bachelors degree entitles you to teach nowhere. At least, not on the college level. Secondly, in addition to a job with the government there are plenty of opportunities for a economics major that may be considered enjoyable and beneficial even if they aren't necessarily paid evangelization of Austrianism. For example, according to this list econ majors are second only to engineering types and applied math types in earnings. Ohh and Physicists. Easily economics is the least math-y thing on that list even at math-intensive schools. The math required for econ is always less than engineering and physics. And according to this study economics majors beat many other more-mathy majors including engineers when you look at career highs. Yes, engineers. You know the guys who have 80 credit majors. In light of all this, I think some econ majors working in hedge funds, etc, have long hours. But this is besides the point. Economics is not a bad degree. It's no engineering or computer science but if your passionate about it, it's well worth it financially. Keep in mind that some one who cares about economics will do well in it and be at the top of the range of economics students as opposed to someone who tries to be more "practical" and becomes an engineer instead of an econ major and is in the middle of the engineering range. Just wanted to dispel those myths. And if you do get into a PhD program you have one of the best and well paying job markets for Professors in the world. Not too bad. Not too bad at all.
Woooh, a lot of activity in here! I appreciate all the input. Let me try to cover everyone. :-P As far as waiting tables, quite frankly I'm facing the same prospects with health sciences. At least I find econ really, really interesting and fun. I can still go work as trainer without too much trouble with an econ degree, because I already have the knowledge base to obtain the NSCA CSCS certification (which is the industry standard for strength and conditioning coaching). The only catch is that they require a 4-year degree to even take the exam, but they oddly don't care what field you hold the degree in! So, worst case scenario, I can be another broke personal trainer instead of a broke waiter.
In regards to careers, honestly I have not thought about that a ton yet. I still have at least a term's worth of classes before I have to worry about declaring a new major, so I will be giving this lots of thought. Having said that, I'm not afraid of crunching numbers, and I wouldn't mind working as an entry-level advisor or analyst for a private company, which I've seen numerous job postings for.
Should I opt to pursue grad school (and avoid going to the Keynesian dark side haha) my options actually open up quite a bit. I would then have some opportunities to study more free-market oriented economics. I hear MBA programs are also liking econ majors these days.
As for my interest in health sciences, it was my passion for several years, but I'm just not having fun anymore. I'm not really learning anything outside of minutiae because I did so much reading on my own over the years. A big turn-off was realizing how little money there is without a masters degree, which I honestly can't even imagine doing at this point. I've lost so much interest over the past year or so. The spark just isn't there anymore, I instead read economics and and listen to econ audio books every day...for fun! Hahaha.
Studying the en vogue economics of today will be a slight bummer I'm sure, but I've yet to have a prof I agree with in any subject. It will be nothing new. As krazy said, if I manage to remain secretly true to my Austrian "roots", understanding modern economic thought will greatly strengthen me.
Anyway, I got into a class and I am actually starting out tomorrow. I'm going to feel it out for a term or two. If the university brand of econ doesn't crush my spirit, I will switch majors and march forward. I will keep you guys posted.
Jeremiah Dyke:I remember listening to a Hoppe lecture in which he tried to persuade individuals from studying economics at mainstream institutions and instead making headway into subjects like law and sociology.
Unless you decide to become an academic, there is no future in law or sociology. If someone's passion is to go to college for a decade, then they can by all means do that. The economics profession, on the other hand, has many more opportunities than academia.
nuksukow:I've completed enough courses to have the health minor, so I'm thinking I will switch over to econ. Worst case scenario: If I graduate and somehow absolutely hate econ careers, I can still go take my certified strength and conditioning specialist's certification, because they simply require any type of bachelors degree. (Oh, I'm a kinesiology major, by the way.) I'd have to study a little harder for it probably, but I honestly already have the knowledge base at this point. So, I'd be able to choose between an an entry-level analysis or advising job, or be broke athletic trainer haha. Maybe moonlight as a trainer on the weekends.
How are you liking kinesiology (in general)? TBH, before this semester, I was thinking about either dropping out of college or switching to kinesiology or a nutrition degree.
If you're motivated and know what you're doing, you can make some nice cash being a personal trainer. Just about 10 days ago I talked to a guy in New York who is 25, making lots of cash, and training two powerlifters to bench 500 lbs completely raw. He has a personal training studio, out of which he also runs a powerlifting team (the powerlifting team being for those who can't afford his personal training). I'm pretty sure he's certified by the IART, too. Or at least when I talked to him, he said he highly recommends the IART as the best personal training organization around.
I was thinking about dropping out of college, doing the IART certification, and slowly starting up my own business. But since I'm going to college practically for free I decided to stay the course for a little while. Maybe I'll stay in econ. Maybe I'll make some money in econ and then go to personal training. IDK yet.
Danny Sanchez:That's fantastic Kaju, we so need more people doing that.
Thanks. (:
Funked Up:If you have a degree in economics then your options are limited - especially if you don't have a PhD. Basically, if you have that PhD, then you can do 3 things with an economics degree: 1. you can teach; 2. you can get a job with the government; 3. you can get a fellowship position at some NGO. If you want to teach Austrian economics, then that basically disqualifies you from both 1 and 2. If you don't have a PhD in economics, then you'll be stuck waiting tables or working retail. You won't go anywhere with out that PhD; no offense. You can try to get a job at some small university, but you won't likely get it. If you want to be a closet Austrian and teach mainstream economics, then your options will grow. Would you like to do this though? For me, learning economics - especially austrian economics - is something that is more enjoyable on the side. You'd be better off choosing a different major and just applying your non formal education with your formal education. Majoring in economics, as an Austrian, is a career killer. For every Austrian professor that has a stable job and is able to teach how they want to, there is probably several fold more aspiring professors that have a degree which is not conducive to their current career.
Are you an econ major yourself? It looks like you have no clue what you're talking about. It's pretty easy to get an econ internship around here, and I go to a school in Detroit... the most depressed city in one of the most depressed states. The median pay for an econ major is in the $40k-$50k range. Banks, financial firms, and major corporations are all looking for people with econ degrees. Even the nearly bankrupt Ford is handing out internships around here to econ, math, finance, and accounting majors. Those are all good money majors.
The thing about econ is that you have to get good at neoclassical economics to satisfy your employers. That might not be some people's cup of tea, but if you're good at something you can critique it more thoroughly.
nuksukow:Studying the en vogue economics of today will be a slight bummer I'm sure, but I've yet to have a prof I agree with in any subject. It will be nothing new. As krazy said, if I manage to remain secretly true to my Austrian "roots", understanding modern economic thought will greatly strengthen me.
I sometimes critically question my profs. They don't mind it; it just all goes above their heads. They're too engaged in their own theoretical cloud-world to be able to engage any other thoughts. e.g. just the other day, I mentioned John Locke in my Economic Analysis of Law class when we were discussing the origin of/the reason why we have property rights and the prof didn't even know who he was. And when I tried to explain to the prof, he just kinda looked at me as if I were crazy. All of it was kinda ridiculous, considering how I learned about Locke in high school... An Econ and Law class that focuses on property rights should be well aware of how the thought of Locke shaped the founding of this country and its constitution. It gets to the point where other students see the prof as out-of-touch and people come to you for advice. Or another example: the same day, in the micro class taught by the behavioral economist, I caught the prof bullshitting about indifference curves. He said that indifference curves have been disproven empirically by the endowment effect. I tried to explain to him how adding the endowment effect to a basket of goods changes the product (it is no longer just goods x & y, but goods x & y with an added product of psychological attachment, known as the endowmend effect), thereby leaving his example invalid (you can't take an indifference curve, then add more products, change consumer preferences, and then try to claim that confuscating the model has somehow disproven indifference curves), but it totally flew over his head.
A problem with posting a topic like this on a forum like this is that people will often inject their own personal beliefs into serious advice about your future, I'm not trying to sleight anybody, I'm no different. That said, a lot of what has been posted so far is very sensible advice, some of it I disagree with some if it I endorse. So let me post a few points.
First things first, go speak to your undergraduate adviser. He will know more about the particulars of your situation than any of us here do, that means employment prospect in your area, employment prospects for somebody in your field, what you'd need to do to change courses, what classes you'd need to take etc. Quite possibly he could provide you with some sort of data about the earnings people had upon graduations for economics and health sciences and you could make the decision as to whether or not the differential justifies switching to economics.
On a completely different note, principles of economics is one of the most mind numbingly boring classes I've ever taken. But once you start getting into more advanced classes it actually gets a lot more interesting. I was Austrian throughout my first year of university but I eventually lost interest when I started getting into intermediate micro and macro. Game theory, auction theory, asymmetric information and even general equilibrium are quite interesting, far more so than the very simplified models you look at in principles, and it's actually pretty free market oriented. Even macro becomes a lot less "Keynesian" when you start looking at things like games between the central banks, RatEx and stuff like that. At the very least it's both a lot more rigorous and a lot more interesting. I also found IO, Public Economics and behavioural economics classes to be very worthwhile.
Whoever said PoliSci degrees are generally useless was spot on, unfortunately philosophy and history degrees are even more so. This also applies to classes like "philosophy of economics" and "economic history". To be sure, I find the latter interesting, and I've read a few EH books and papers in my spare time, it's heavy stuff and it's exceedingly important. But its not what employers are looking for in a potential employee. If you want to get the best mileage out of your economics degree, I'd suggesting taking as many metrics classes as you can alongside some basic math classes (Calculus, Linear Algebra, Stats should suffice). Even if your potential employers won't need the skills you've learned from these classes, they're very efficient as signalling devices.
Forgive my ignorance, I don't know much about health sciences (or your preferences). But would it be possible to go into an area like health economics? Once again, you'd really have to speak to your undergraduate adviser to get more information about this possibility, but Googling reveals quite a few Masters degrees in health economics. Have you considered this option yet?
I think another thing to consider is just how you're enjoying life as a student. I'm pretty content to drag my undergraduate degree out as long as possible. But if you're bored of partying or simply can't stand being broke and living in squalor any longer then perhaps it's best to just graduate as soon as possible and try working for a while in your current area.
krazy kaju: Are you an econ major yourself? It looks like you have no clue what you're talking about. It's pretty easy to get an econ internship around here, and I go to a school in Detroit... the most depressed city in one of the most depressed states. The median pay for an econ major is in the $40k-$50k range. Banks, financial firms, and major corporations are all looking for people with econ degrees. Even the nearly bankrupt Ford is handing out internships around here to econ, math, finance, and accounting majors. Those are all good money majors. The thing about econ is that you have to get good at neoclassical economics to satisfy your employers. That might not be some people's cup of tea, but if you're good at something you can critique it more thoroughly. I'm am not an economics major, but I am taking some graduate electives at Harvard regarding the subject. Maybe the Ivy League graduate school system has brainwashed me into accepting the fact that the academic environment for Austrians is not very friendly. What ever the reason - I can assure you that I "know what I'm talking about." Again, I think I'm being misunderstood here. You CAN make a great living as an economist; it's just much more difficult as an Austrian. Those jobs that you've implied: banks, financial firms, and corporations, are primarily interested in finance guru's, accountants, and MBA's. I highly doubt that these firms would hire an economist that wants to talk about praxeology. You'll be stuck regurgitating neoclassical theory. If that's what you want, then go for it! I just assume that posters on these boards are interested in teaching, or pursuing a career, in AUSTRIAN economics and not neoclassical or keynesian styles. If you're willing to teach other styles, as others have mentioned, this will increase your overall knowledge of economics, but much of what you will do will involve staying away from the Austrian realm. It's your choice to make. Also, since I grew up in Detroit, and had experience studying at Wayne State (that's where you're going to school I assume) during my High School days, I can tell you that the prospects for such a career in Michigan are limited. Maybe you can get a job at Hillsdale or Walsh college - which are hotbeds of Austrianism by today's standards, but it's a tough state to get by in as a free marketeer. Your best chances (at teaching Austrian Economics by itself) are getting a PhD and then moving to Texas, the South, or the Midwest, and trying to get a job at a community college. But...when someone here gets a job where they can practice their love of teaching Austrian economics within a friendly and conducive environment, then come back on these forums and tell me about it so I can eat my words.
I'm am not an economics major, but I am taking some graduate electives at Harvard regarding the subject. Maybe the Ivy League graduate school system has brainwashed me into accepting the fact that the academic environment for Austrians is not very friendly. What ever the reason - I can assure you that I "know what I'm talking about."
Again, I think I'm being misunderstood here. You CAN make a great living as an economist; it's just much more difficult as an Austrian. Those jobs that you've implied: banks, financial firms, and corporations, are primarily interested in finance guru's, accountants, and MBA's. I highly doubt that these firms would hire an economist that wants to talk about praxeology. You'll be stuck regurgitating neoclassical theory. If that's what you want, then go for it!
I just assume that posters on these boards are interested in teaching, or pursuing a career, in AUSTRIAN economics and not neoclassical or keynesian styles. If you're willing to teach other styles, as others have mentioned, this will increase your overall knowledge of economics, but much of what you will do will involve staying away from the Austrian realm. It's your choice to make.
Also, since I grew up in Detroit, and had experience studying at Wayne State (that's where you're going to school I assume) during my High School days, I can tell you that the prospects for such a career in Michigan are limited. Maybe you can get a job at Hillsdale or Walsh college - which are hotbeds of Austrianism by today's standards, but it's a tough state to get by in as a free marketeer. Your best chances (at teaching Austrian Economics by itself) are getting a PhD and then moving to Texas, the South, or the Midwest, and trying to get a job at a community college.
But...when someone here gets a job where they can practice their love of teaching Austrian economics within a friendly and conducive environment, then come back on these forums and tell me about it so I can eat my words.
FunkedUp,
A. Having an Economics degree does not mean being an Economist is the only career open. It's also a degree that's great for finance and other fields. That's why the pays so high for it (see my previous post). Also, it opens the opportunity for advancement to the managerial ranks. Many hedge fund managers have econ degrees. From these positions of power and influence different opportunities may arise to support Austrianism and/or Libertarianism. Fact is people are interested in paying economics degree holders money. In fact, MORE money than accounting and finance majors. I left the facts and figures in my last post. Please view them
B. I don't care if it's a community college in West Bumjism, South Dakota. You probably need a PhD to get a position there. Most of us don't want to give up the time and take the travel to move to whatever boring town needs a community college lecturer. Therefore, we're looking for tangential ways to enjoy economics. After all you need the whole "math genius" thing to get into grad school. Kind of a bummer. However, if you have those things and do well at them you'll do fine and land a job even with Austrian leanings.
C. Given A and B I don't know what you're talking about. Perhaps it's Hahhvahd logic. But I don't get it. Sorry chief.
Studying econ still gives you a lot of career options, so you wouldn't need to become an economist. Also, you could remain an "open" Austrian, since at the undergrad level, nobody will really care. Luckily, Keynesian stuff takes up a very small chunk of what you study. If you really like econ, I'd recommend it.
If you have any specific questions, PM me (I studied econ at the undergrad/grad level).
As a career economist you're going to need a PhD, and this means that you must be extremely talented in both economic research, theory, and mathematics. Don't even think about becoming an economist unless you're a math genius. The entire profession, and basically all of the respected graduate programs, place extreme emphasis on mathematics.
Additionally, I was told that an M.A. in economics is basically useless, and that M.B.A.'s are much more competitive in the labor market. An M.A. in economics seems to be useful insofar as it allows you to teach basic economics at junior colleges. I'm not sure if this is entirely true, but it's what I've been told (by professors, advisors, and graduate students).
A B.S. or B.A. in economics wont open too many doors for you. I can tell you that, as a recent college graduate with a B.S. in economics (with a 4.0 major GPA and a 3.93 cumulative GPA), that I'm unable to find work in the private sector (I've been turned down for a few internships as well). So far, the only jobs available are government jobs (such as bank regulator, state program examiner, and municipal affairs examiner). I'm quite sure that this is partially due to the fact that most economics majors go into banking which is, at the moment, a devastated industry, comprised of zombie banks that require continuous capital and liquidity injections, as well as an artificially steep yield curve, just to stay in business.
Just some things to think about. Also, and this is key, economics, as a profession, has nothing to do with libertarianism. The two are quite distinct.
"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."
Nerditarian: FunkedUp, A. Having an Economics degree does not mean being an Economist is the only career open. That's true, but why get an economics degree in the first place? It's also a degree that's great for finance and other fields. Why not just concentrate on finance then? That's why the pays so high for it (see my previous post). Also, it opens the opportunity for advancement to the managerial ranks. Many hedge fund managers have econ degrees. From these positions of power and influence different opportunities may arise to support Austrianism and/or Libertarianism. Fact is people are interested in paying economics degree holders money. In fact, MORE money than accounting and finance majors. I left the facts and figures in my last post. Please view them Yes, but you need a PhD for all the fields that you've described - a bachelors or masters won't cut it at those levels. Those managers that you speak of probably also have MBA's. Also, it's important to distinguish the academics from the professionals. Academic economists (PhD's) generally get jobs in the public sector: universities, research institutions, publicly funded NGO's, etc. Professionals (BS economics/MBA) are usually employed by the private sector. If you want to work in the business realm, then finance/accounting degree's and MBA's, generally speaking, carry a lot more weight than an economics degree; whereas the opposite is true in the public sector. Economics majors probably do get paid more money because most of them are public sector employees, where they are used to justify economic intervention and are rewarded handsomely for their intellectual credence. I think we would both agree that most academic economists are left wingers - right? The whole academic economics profession, and the market for jobs after graduation, are highly conducive to interventionism; not exactly a spot an Austrian identify as ideal. Again, if anyone wants to do this - then go for it! B. I don't care if it's a community college in West Bumjism, South Dakota. You probably need a PhD to get a position there. Most of us don't want to give up the time and take the travel to move to whatever boring town needs a community college lecturer. Right, but those are the types of jobs that would allow you to teach Austrian Economics in an unhampered setting. Most universities are devoted to Neoclassical Theory and Keynes, and unfortunately don't employ Austrians. Therefore, we're looking for tangential ways to enjoy economics. After all you need the whole "math genius" thing to get into grad school. Kind of a bummer. However, if you have those things and do well at them you'll do fine and land a job even with Austrian leanings. I don't think it's a bummer to be required to know math at an advanced level to be an economist. On the contrary, it would be beneficial and desirable to understand mathematical economics, advanced calculus, etc. If you plan on studying economics at the collegiate level, then you must be willing to learn all the different schools of economics; Keynes, Chicago, etc. All of this is to the Austrian's benefit. If you are up for doing all this, then studying economics at a university may be for you. If you want to strictly focus on Austrian economics, then just read all the free stuff on this site. It will save you a bundle. C. Given A and B I don't know what you're talking about. Perhaps it's Hahhvahd logic. But I don't get it. Sorry chief. I don't know what you're talking about. I thought that I've been pretty clear - though maybe a bit pessimistic.
A. Having an Economics degree does not mean being an Economist is the only career open.
That's true, but why get an economics degree in the first place?
It's also a degree that's great for finance and other fields.
Why not just concentrate on finance then?
That's why the pays so high for it (see my previous post). Also, it opens the opportunity for advancement to the managerial ranks. Many hedge fund managers have econ degrees. From these positions of power and influence different opportunities may arise to support Austrianism and/or Libertarianism. Fact is people are interested in paying economics degree holders money. In fact, MORE money than accounting and finance majors. I left the facts and figures in my last post. Please view them
B. I don't care if it's a community college in West Bumjism, South Dakota. You probably need a PhD to get a position there. Most of us don't want to give up the time and take the travel to move to whatever boring town needs a community college lecturer.
Right, but those are the types of jobs that would allow you to teach Austrian Economics in an unhampered setting. Most universities are devoted to Neoclassical Theory and Keynes, and unfortunately don't employ Austrians.
Therefore, we're looking for tangential ways to enjoy economics. After all you need the whole "math genius" thing to get into grad school. Kind of a bummer. However, if you have those things and do well at them you'll do fine and land a job even with Austrian leanings.
I don't think it's a bummer to be required to know math at an advanced level to be an economist. On the contrary, it would be beneficial and desirable to understand mathematical economics, advanced calculus, etc. If you plan on studying economics at the collegiate level, then you must be willing to learn all the different schools of economics; Keynes, Chicago, etc. All of this is to the Austrian's benefit. If you are up for doing all this, then studying economics at a university may be for you.
If you want to strictly focus on Austrian economics, then just read all the free stuff on this site. It will save you a bundle.
I don't know what you're talking about. I thought that I've been pretty clear - though maybe a bit pessimistic.
I'm in a similar situation, in that I'm not sure exactly what to study.
Right now I'm a Freshman (about to start my second semester) doing Poli Sci as a major. Within the past two weeks or so I've really questioned continuing with it. I considered economics, but as is evident in some of the other posts here, it is math-laden and I'll likely not enjoy it.
Poli Sci isn't exactly a gold mine job-wise. Becuase of that, I've begun to think of possibly going into a science-oriented major. Recently I've become very interested in science. The only problem is that they too are math-laden, and I'm not sure if I want to really study it.
MEMO TO POTENTIAL ECON STUDENTS
Just FYI, Walter Block has maintained an actively growing memo to students looking at graduate school in economics that you may find quite helpful...find it here. (and Jeff Tucker linked to a reddit thread on math requirements here.)
Blueline, if you are thinking of science, you might not have to do a lot of maths in biology, genetics etc. Perhaps only 'freshman' maths and/or statistics. I'm not sure if that's your interest, though.
Otherwise you could could continue what you're doing and pick up teaching? Just a couple thoughts for you...
Hey everybody. Just an update- I got into the principles of micro class the other day. I'm really enjoying it, and I was fortunate enough to have a professor that seems very open minded, as well being an engaging speaker. I'm gonna try a couple terms of this. If I somehow can't stand it and feel like I'm cheating on Mises too much, there isn't anything stopping me from going back to health sciences. Yes, I will regrettably take on some additional debt if that's the cas, but this is one of those situations that I think I would always question if I didn't try it.
On a side note, I really wish I found any type of egineering interesting! $$$ Hahaha
Aristippus:Blueline, if you are thinking of science, you might not have to do a lot of maths in biology, genetics etc. Perhaps only 'freshman' maths and/or statistics. I'm not sure if that's your interest, though. Otherwise you could could continue what you're doing and pick up teaching? Just a couple thoughts for you...
If I was comfortable with math, or at least didn't mind it, I'd probably be doing a Physics major right now.
I was looking into biology. I guess I won't know until I take some of the core science classes next semester. As for teaching Poli Sci, I was thinking about that as well. It seems like the only viable occupation for me, because I'd definitely have to go into Business to get a job in the private sector, and as of now there's no way I'm getting a government job.
Time will tell, I suppose.
I'm facing the same dilemma now. I'm from Ontario, Canada, and I plan on taking a double major in Econ and Philosophy in university and from the information I have gathered the macro is very Keynesian. However, while this is an obvious negative I don't think it would lead me to not take economics. My main two reasons are A) I have only been deeply exposed to Austrian and Chicago school economists, so I think it is necessary to know the opposing view before discrediting it. B) After year one no macro is needed and instead I can look at economic history, philosophy (my favourite), etc.
I don't know if the rest of you on the board have the same view I do, but I think it is advantageous to know multiple schools of thought. I even like looking at Marxist (e.g. G.A. Cohen) and Post-Keynesian (e.g. Joan Robinson) economics in order to fully grasp different viewpoints. Personally, I feel the best economists understand all schools, they just think Austrians are correct.
Mike McComb,
I'd like to start off by saying that I wish you the best in your academic endeavors. I can sympathize since I'll be having to make the same choices as you very soon.
But moving on to your planned degree in economics; are you planning on making a career out of it (being an adviser for a firm, joining a think tank, teaching, etc.) or are you just majoring in it for the more learned insights it will give you into other schools of economic thought? If it's the former, then I'd say that you should definitiely go forward with it. But if it's the latter, then I'd have to advise against it. You can learn about Keynes and Marx during your free time and at your leisure for far cheaper than what a university degree would cost you.
I plan on making a career out of it. I wouldn't go just to learn about Keynes and Marx. I could do that already. I just like being able to have a degree by the end of it.
Discussions about economics at university on this forum remind me of a quote by Mark Twain; "I never let my school interfere with my education."
If you plan on majoring in economics, I suggest minoring in something like finance or accounting.
Going for the closet-Austrian-studying-Keynesianism-route would be a huge mistake imo. I just got done with a masters level macro course last semester and it was the most frustrating thing ever. It was nothing but listening to the profressor pushing the usual Keynesian methods and mocking the free market. I'm pretty quiet, so I didn't comment much (which is probably why it was so frustrating) but I guess if you're outspoken, such class situations might be fun for you to muck up with free market arguments.