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Silly arguments you've heard from Neocons (also short rant)

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Libertyandlife Posted: Thu, Mar 3 2011 11:15 PM

Sometimes I feel like we bash the liberals or socialists too much. So in that spirit, post silly things you've heard neocons say or silly arguments you've heard from them. You must admit as ridiculous as socialists can be, conservatives are down right retarded. To start off:

My conservative professor was basically bashing academia, basically implying that intellectuals have worse morals then regular folks, and implying it's the intellectuals that cause genocide (nevermind all those nazi citizens). Also he implied that anyone who saw issues with the Israeli state hated Jews, and that most of anti-israeli sentiment was from academia, and that they are all racist. He also said that those protests of Israel only appeared on college campuses. I was floored at how ridiculous this was and a bit dissappointed.  I was brewing in my seat. I didn't feel like arguing but I was so mad (because I have been in those protests and it's not like that, a third of the folks were jews, it was a very diverse crowd everytime). Sometimes the professor was right on some things, that went off the track into conservative bullshit.

He has this ridiculous "underdog" mentality towards conservatives.

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shazam replied on Thu, Mar 3 2011 11:51 PM

I recall a Jewish acquaitance of mine complaining that Rahm Emanuel was Anti-Israel and Anti-Semitic, and that the two best presidents were Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush.

Anarcho-capitalism boogeyman

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Zizzer replied on Fri, Mar 4 2011 10:17 PM

Wait, you have a conservative professor?

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I have two.

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Both the left and right are annoying, but in my opinion, the left is far worse in that, as a libertarian, I find myself agreeing with them far less than the "right." 

This is only slightly related, but something that's been on my mind lately: the political "right" is far less defineable than the political "left." Does anybody else agree with this? I've always had problems with the left-right spectrum, but never could reconcile them with the fact that I and many others who aknowledge its fault still insist on using it. Then I thought, I use it far more frequently when I'm categorizing people as leftists, rather than rightists, and I'd never use it to describe my political beliefs.

So in my mind, leftists are quite obviously collectivist, statist (even the anti-state ones are statist in my judgement), and anti-market (whatever and all that encompasses), while rightists are... a big blob of largely unrelated people, or at least less related than leftists are to one another.

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I agree with lots of thing with leftists on civil rights and foreign policy, though not on economics. I disagree with conservatives on almost everything. They seem to be totally oblivious to many things, and much more inconsistent. I've always found talking to a left winger about politics as much easier then a conservative. What are we but left wingers with economic knowledge? 

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The left have always seemed to have the wrong values, but the right seemed to be the most full of crap and contradictory.

As far as the underdog mentality of conservatives, its an insular, paranoid and delusional mentality.

I am lucky in that I don't have to deal with idiots on a daily basis.  I go out of my way to avoid them or having any conversation of substance with someone I suspect of being an idiot.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Libertyandlife,

What are we but left wingers with economic knowledge?

...Individualist, pro-market, and anti-state? And economic knowledge is quite a big differece, so to walk over it is a mistake.

 I agree with lots of thing with leftists on civil rights and foreign policy [...]

You agree with foreign policy? 

They [the right] seem to be totally oblivious to many things, and much more inconsistent.

I'll take someone to inconsistently agree with over someone to consistently disagree with. Then again, I assume we percieve "the right" differently, which only goes to prove the point that the label is useless. Without a theory of property, calling yourself anything but undecided indicates that you're just creating ad-hoc justifications, and I think this is reaffirmed by how quickly a typical leftist or rightist will contradict his or her own principles, or plainly lack principles, in the first place.

And just to note, I'm speaking on the "right," not conservatives. I assume there is a difference.

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Neo-cons often call (me/all libertarians/ ron paul) an "isolationist". now if you were to say take the time to even google "isolationist" it says it is non interventionism crossed with protectionism. only to a neocon is not bombing your neighbors isolating yourself from them.

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jay replied on Sat, Mar 5 2011 9:02 AM

"What are we but left wingers with economic knowledge?"

What are we but right wingers against state warfare?

"The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -C.S. Lewis
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TANSTAAFL replied on Sat, Mar 5 2011 12:40 PM

The silliest arguments I have heard from a number of conservatives are centered around defense spending.

That we can't cut military spending because of all the jobs it will cut, or any level of spending is legit because it is authorized by the constitution, or the military spending is not what is bankrupting us, it is the entitlement spending.

 

 

My biggest beef of all with both libs and cons is there inconsistencies and lack of principles.

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And one can't be principled until they have some idea of what they are talking about.  We have another thread here where people are straddling the fence on statism because they feel anarchism hasn't proven itself.  It's not just common to left and right wingers.  Most people are not used to thinking for themselves, and pick some murky non-position as a proxy for having to come to a conclusion.

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GooPC replied on Sat, Mar 5 2011 2:27 PM

Ann Coulter quotes could fill an entire thread, but this one still stands out in my memory from reading her book 5 years ago:

As aspiring pothead Governor Johnson puts it, "Half of what we spend on law enforcement, half of what we spend on the courts and half of what we spend on the prisons is drug related. Our current policies on drugs are perhaps the biggest problem that this country has."

I won't dispute the governor's presumably apocryphal facts. We spend a lot of money enforcing murder and robbery laws, too. So what? It's supposed to be a disaster for the country that the drug laws keep a lot of people gainfully employed working for law enforcement and prisons? That doesn't mean we should randomly criminalize things to create jobs for prosecutors and prison guards, but the horrifying consequence of providing people with good jobs at good wages is not a strong argument for repealing drug laws.

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Most people are not used to thinking for themselves, and pick some murky non-position as a proxy for having to come to a conclusion.

I am not sure if that is necessarilly a bad thing.

Not many people grow up completely independently in thought. Leave aside even children and teenagers, a young adult consults friends on his problems with his girlfriend or her boyfriend, a newly married man or woman goes to his or her parents for problems at the start of marriage, an advancing executive consults his older boss on the problems of his new workplace, and so on. It would seem that until people reach the age of, say, 60, they are perpetually dependent on someone else for advice, not only on what to do but also on what to think.

Is this relevant to problems of political philosophy? Probably, I'd say. Isn't that all about cooperation, division of labour, and specialization? Doesn't it involve how you live with or work with other people?

That even older people cave to peer pressure merely reflects an understandable instinct, even if it is irrational sometimes.

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Prateek Sanjay:
Most people are not used to thinking for themselves, and pick some murky non-position as a proxy for having to come to a conclusion.

I am not sure if that is necessarilly a bad thing.

Good joke.  I lol'd.

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@TANSTAAFL What's the opinion here on the often cited statistic that military spending is only 20% or so of the budget? Is that more or less true?

 

Curious because neocons like to make the argument that defense spending is only a fraction of total government budget and barely makes a difference.

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He has this ridiculous "underdog" mentality towards conservatives.

That's actually true, especially if you take into account that most 'conservatives' are just left-wingers of another brand. The Proggies paint this menace of right-wing fanaticism that is totally imaginary anywhere west of Bulgaria.

I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living.
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My response to the neocons that try to minimize what we spend on "defense" because it is "only" 20-30% of total spending is to compare what we spend to what the rest of the world spends. We spend more than all other countries combined.

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So? She's still just another NeoCon Democratic internationalist. No one who advocates democratic government has any business being called 'right wing', that's just a plain litmus test. Beyond that, her basic social and economic views are straight Progressivism; and her international views are Wilsonian.
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I didn't disagree, I'm just pointing out that she's against some forms of welfare and not others.

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Libertyandlife:

I didn't disagree, I'm just pointing out that she's against some forms of welfare and not others.

Oh, sure. The Progressives all have their favorite groups; after all we know many of the old Proggies loved big business and viewed cartelization as the model for economy.
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Which is probably why the talking heads from both "sides" try to rail on each other as much as possible, to make each other look different, and make themselves look like the solution.

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Libertyandlife:

Which is probably why the talking heads from both "sides" try to rail on each other as much as possible, to make each other look different, and make themselves look like the solution.

The Western world's political scene is like Bubba's Shrimp. "We got redneck Progressives, Christian Progressives, Yankee Progressives, Hayekian Progressives, Islamic Progressives..." You get more of the same. There are differences between these groups, just not ones that matter much to libertarians.
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That is the most bizarre analogy I've heard in a while, but it works laugh

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Amadeus replied on Thu, Apr 7 2011 1:18 PM

Doesn't anyone else here feel uncomfortable labeling those who disagree with you idiots? Why play they're game of name-calling and lower yourself to their standards of intellectual integrity? 

 

Most of this stuff comes off as stroking your own ego, and asserting your intelletualy superiority over someone because they disagree with you politically. 

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Amadeus:

Doesn't anyone else here feel uncomfortable labeling those who disagree with you idiots? Why play they're game of name-calling and lower yourself to their standards of intellectual integrity? 

Most people, whether they agree with me or not, are idiots. On the other hand it's not the case that people like Krugman or Obama are idiots, they're more delusional and in a state of rationalization for their own interests.

Most of this stuff comes off as stroking your own ego, and asserting your intelletualy superiority over someone because they disagree with you politically. 

So?

I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living.
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Amadeus replied on Thu, Apr 7 2011 7:36 PM

"Most people, whether they agree with me or not, are idiots."

I figured as much.

"So?"

So it down plays your overall political argument when you take the smug ass approach that so many political pundits love using. If you play by their tone(smug ass approach) then you're not much less of an asshole then they are. 

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So it down plays your overall political argument when you take the smug ass approach that so many political pundits love using.

Their smug-ass approach seems to work a lot better than libertarian pandering.

If you play by their tone(smug ass approach) then you're not much less of an asshole then they are.

So?

I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living.
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Now both my neocon professors are in favor of marijuana legalization hmmmm....

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Neodoxy replied on Thu, Apr 7 2011 10:13 PM

Neo-Conservatism  is the most abhorent mainstream ideology alive in America today. I hate them, I hope they burn in the ashes of their own wars.

It's one thing to be a statist with the implied contradictions and opression, it's another thing to come along, destroy the half freedom of one of the ideologies (social freedom destroyed and big buisness in bed with government) has and be nationalistic. I hope that the first time I debate with a neocon they sprout wings and breath fire so that I can slay them.

/hate rant. Sorry I'm usually reasonable but god do I hate neocons.

At last those coming came and they never looked back With blinding stars in their eyes but all they saw was black...
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^That's why I made this thread.

Hey! We both have Rousseau quotes *high fives*

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Neodoxy replied on Thu, Apr 7 2011 11:50 PM

Haha pound it!

Yea I've been reading this book with brief selections of political writings and the excerpt from the social contract really surprised me. I really liked this quote (because I was like oh heyy I agree with that statement! :D) and I feel as though this quote in and of itself serves to prove that Rousseau was not quite as pro democracy as my teachers have lead me believe...

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Rousseau is a bit of an odd fellow; his view of the corruptibility of human nature, for instance, is confined to societal relations. His point is this: outside society, men would have immediate and intuitive access to the general will which is in complete accordance with the common good. It is only when men enters society that he forms associations with others for the propagation of the private will, i.e., some will at the expense of others.

This is why he thinks that even the majority would not constitute a proper democracy, since the majority rule would not be what he calls the common good (which as he has already noted cannot be achieved within society) but it would merely be the sum of private wills.

But he goes on later to contradict himself. Within Rousseau you can find innumerable contradictions. But so what if he contradicts himself? He's deep; he's large; he contains multitudes.

“Remove justice,” St. Augustine asks, “and what are kingdoms but gangs of criminals on a large scale? What are criminal gangs but petty kingdoms?”
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I dislike the mainstream left more than the NeoCon left. NeoCons aren't as crazy.

I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living.
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Neodoxy replied on Fri, Apr 8 2011 9:57 PM

I did find his talk about the ''common will'' amazingly mystical. I literally laughed out loud when he stated that the purpose of voting was for each individual stating what they thought the common will was

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I'm pretty cool with libertarian socialists as odd as that might sound.

Especially when you tend to ignore the idea of economics systems when talk politics. There's a lot of common ground. Foreign policy, media, civil rights, corporatism (for some to a degree). 

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Libertyandlife:

I'm pretty cool with libertarian socialists as odd as that might sound.

Especially when you tend to ignore the idea of economics systems when talk politics. There's a lot of common ground. Foreign policy, media, civil rights, corporatism (for some to a degree). 

Illusory. Because the economic paradigm is what makes it all work. The fact of capitalism is the only thing that makes the foreign policy, media and civil rights stuff relevant or coherent. As soon as leftists find out their egalitarian religion doesn't work out they turn straight to force. Look at the New Left. They're all establishment liberals and NeoCons now.
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In the end, we need to avoid too many distinctions, because economic illiteracy is economic illiteracy, irrespective of the source,

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NidStyles replied on Fri, Apr 15 2011 10:55 AM

Honestly, rather than the term Neo-Con, and Progressive we should just call them what they are, Fascist's.

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