Today on lewrockwell.com Mr. Rockwell mentioned that he had turned down a Comedy Central invitation. Some time ago he said he had turned down an invitation to Real Time.
I would love to see him accept these invitations. The best places to preach are right outside the pagans' temples, in my opinion. He doesn't even need to make converts; the mere act of introducing radical new ideas to a new audience is a victory in itself. I would love to see him on Real Time or whatever Comedy Central show it was.
The fact that the Austro-libertarian camp is getting attention from these more mainstream, leftish shows demonstrates the surge in popularity, and anyone willing to deliver the message straight and hard, undiluted, ought to take advantage of these invitations.
Just my two cents.
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under - Mencken
I think these outlets are beneath any thinking person. So is preaching, for that matter. Prosthelytizing makes one unclean.
Ricky James Moore II:I think these outlets are beneath any thinking person.
I disagree. There is no black and white between thinking and non-thinking people. That attitude is elitist and not helpful. Eventually, the people who think more/better/more precisely need to take their message to the rest. Real Time is a way to introduce new ideas.
Ricky James Moore II:So is preaching, for that matter. Prosthelytizing makes one unclean.
Unclean? This language is too vague to rebut; I'm not sure what you mean by it. Are you arguing that Rothbard should not have argued his ideas? That a great mind should stay silent?
I would advise him to do the Daily Show over Real Time, at least Jon Stewart doesn't pretend he knows what´s going on. And he'll actually listen. That and Rockwell wouldn't have to deal with other guests trying to shout him down or calling him a racist or crazy for not liking Lincoln or something.
I disagree. There is no black and white between thinking and non-thinking people.
Everyone thinks, but most people don't do it right.
That attitude is elitist
So what? Any thinking, critical person is an elite.
and not helpful.
Nothing helps. You come into this with mistaken premises. These primates don't care, and they won't change. All civilization is accidental, and it disturbs them.
Unclean? This language is too vague to rebut; I'm not sure what you mean by it.
I mean that any attempt to appeal to the unwashed is going to get you dirty. Their instincts and habits and presumptions are herdish, ignorant and petty. These endless moralizing sermons you see from libertarians are exactly what I am talking about. I don't want to appeal to them, because they aren't worth appealing to. People who go down to dwell amongst them tend to pick up their stink. As Nietzsche said, "After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands."
Are you arguing that Rothbard should not have argued his ideas? That a great mind should stay silent?
I am arguing that it would have been better if he concentrated on the people who would actually listen to him.
CrazyCoot:I would advise him to do the Daily Show over Real Time, at least Jon Stewart doesn't pretend he knows what´s going on. And he'll actually listen. That and Rockwell wouldn't have to deal with other guests trying to shout him down or calling him a racist or crazy for not liking Lincoln or something.
John Stewart is an excellent, polite host and Lew could do some real good there, I believe.
I get annoyed at a lot of the Real Time shows for the reasons you mention. However, I will give Maher credit for going after a true diversity of opinion out there. He doesn't just go after regimists like P.J. O'Rourke when he seeks libertarian views. Even in such a climate, why not at least show a new audience that these ideas are out there. It's a long way from making conversions, but it is a first step. And a lot of the shouting and bickering can be ameliorated by someone who shows up with a calm, polite attitude (someone like Lew).
It should be noted that Maher got Ron Paul back on the show and accepted the blame for his first interview. He even told him that if Americans were smarter Dr. Paul would be leading in the polls. I'd say it's definitely worth a go.
Lew's life is his own to make decisions with, obviously. I'm just expressing disappointment because I would love to see him on these shows.
Ricky James Moore II:Everyone thinks, but most people don't do it right.
That's the whole point of spreading the message. There was a time when I didn't think right either. I am grateful to Rothbard and others for helping me with that. I wasn't born an Austro-libertarian.
I imagine, Lew isn't interested in wasting his time.
That's the whole point of spreading the message.
No, because you are still ignoring biology and social psychology. People won't accept it because they're not wired correctly. The more of them there are, the worse it gets. They reinforce their selection biases and social tropes.
There was a time when I didn't think right either. I am grateful to Rothbard and others for helping me with that. I wasn't born an Austro-libertarian.
Because you're an outlier, like 90% of all libertarians are. For that matter, like 90% of Nazis are in the modern world. People who can stray from the herd aren't made, they're born. Where you end up is a matter of environment somewhat, but most people can't if they wanted to. We will always be a minority; they will always 'win' in the large scale. Read Albert Jay Nock or Mencken some time.
Drew: I imagine, Lew isn't interested in wasting his time.
Yep.
I hit post on the last one without meaning to. Moving on...
Ricky James Moore II:So what? Any thinking, critical person is an elite.
There is a difference between elite and elitist.
Ricky James Moore II:Nothing helps. You come into this with mistaken premises. These primates don't care, and they won't change.
So throw in the towel? There was a character like you in my book; I do not side with him. I think what you are saying is demonstrably untrue. I think every person who is converted, and I have converted or partially converted several, is proof against what you say.
Ricky James Moore II:I mean that any attempt to appeal to the unwashed is going to get you dirty. Their instincts and habits and presumptions are herdish, ignorant and petty. These endless moralizing sermons you see from libertarians are exactly what I am talking about. I don't want to appeal to them, because they aren't worth appealing to. People who go down to dwell amongst them tend to pick up their stink. As Nietzsche said, "After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands."
Your explanation is still using vague metaphors. Un clean, dirty, stink... these are metaphors. What do you actually mean by them?
Ricky James Moore II:I am arguing that it would have been better if he concentrated on the people who would actually listen to him.
We certainly should think about the best way to apportion our time given that it is scarce. But something like Real Time or The Daily Show represents a new audience, and I am guessing one of a decent size - The Daily Show gets over two million a night, doesn't it? - where a lot of good could be done.
Ricky James Moore II:No, because you are still ignoring biology and social psychology. People won't accept it because they're not wired correctly.
Evidence, please. Are you saying there is no one watching those shows who can be reached?
Ricky James Moore II:People who can stray from the herd aren't made, they're born.
There are those who will latch onto a pure idea and stick with it, consequences be damned. There are those who wait for someone else to test the ice first. There are those who will feel more comfortable coming out when they see it has some steam. Others will wait until it becomes an orthodox position. As maddening as it is that a pure idea can't convince everyone, we still need, if we are to get a libertarian society, to convince enough people. I choose not to throw in the towel on this one.
Ricky James Moore II:We will always be a minority; they will always 'win' in the large scale.
And you know this how?
Ricky James Moore II:Read Albert Jay Nock or Mencken some time.
You make an assumption, and it turns out you are wrong. I have read Nock and Mencken. As great a thinker as Nock was, he still offered up elitist nonsense and backed it up with nothing more than assertions. Why direct me to read them when you have already offered up their assertions? They prove nothing.
I am not going to give up simply because certain elitists insist that nothing can be done. Even if that were true, I'm not going to spend the only life I shall ever have ensconced in my basement dreaming of a better society. Improvements can be made; ideas matter and have consequences. Our ideas could have wonderful consequences, but not if we stay silent.
Drew:I imagine, Lew isn't interested in wasting his time.
And how can we be certain that it is a waste of time?
Meh, anyone who is not an elitist is a crackpot. There's no saving them. Frankly, I have no desire to. They're not even good enough to hate.
We're not going to get a libertarian society before we get supertechnology. Get with the Heinleinian program.
And we're not going to get a libertarian society in my time in any case, and any contribution I would make would be minimal; so I really have no reason to participate in this stuff, even if I didn't find most humans so pathetic. It's exactly your Crusader attitude that I don't like in most people. Nobody can just mind their own business. Have you ever thought that maybe they're getting exactly what they want?
The notion that men can be reformed is the sheerest faith. It betrays an ignorance of evolutionary psychology, social dynamics and history. The Progressives and Libertarians both tend to share this delusion. Diogenes had it figured out long before Mises was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.
Everyone lies to others or lies to themselves. The trick of being an elite is that you realize this and stop believing yourself. Most libertarians fail to get to this stage.
gocrew:And how can we be certain that it is a waste of time?
Well, there are already many sources on the internet that can help people understand the libertarian point of view. I personally think sharing my views with others is quite nice, Lew probably has his own reasons.
If you are used to talking to people who share leftist or conservative views, you will likely not want to have anything to do with them either. Being insulted and hated is not fun, Lew knows that and he certainly experienced it.
RJMIII doesn't think it's nice to share your views, but then again I'm still paying taxes and I wish more people will understand that taxes are not necessary. I'm also submited to alot of governement regulations, and I would like that to stop. There's also a huge mouvement of "anarcho-comunism" nonsense where I live, I would like that to stop too.
Although, I can see why so many people loose hope.
I just explained to people from my college why "direct democracy" does not work. I've been giving a monologue with detailed explanation on all the flaws of direct democracy", and all I got was "OMG you're an idiot". I guess I am, I shouldn't have waisted my time.
Also, we have an association here that makes decisions for what people should eat or think in our college, they act just like mini bureaucrats.
http://vega.cvm.qc.ca/agecvm/gamma/ see there.
Yes, and the more educated they are the stupider they become.
Most human beings hardly deserve the name. They are individuals only in the most technical sense. Their true nature is as a repository for the replication of genes and memes; and they will never be anything else.
The political problem and the radical religious problem are just high-level manifestations of a very basic problem of human beings: they are products of biological evolution. That is what matters, not what is true or false, right or wrong, good or bad, safe or dangerous. All that matters is the in-group and the out-group, status and fitting in, breeding and feeding. They are hardly aware anything else exists, and when they are they usually resent it.
Left media is not as powerful as we might think it is. Most left authors struggle to sell books. It's really an echo chamber.
Ricky James Moore II:Yes, and the more educated they are the stupider they become. Most human beings hardly deserve the name. They are individuals only in the most technical sense. Their true nature is as a repository for the replication of genes and memes; and they will never be anything else. The political problem and the radical religious problem are just high-level manifestations of a very basic problem of human beings: they are products of biological evolution. That is what matters, not what is true or false, right or wrong, good or bad, safe or dangerous. All that matters is the in-group and the out-group, status and fitting in, breeding and feeding. They are hardly aware anything else exists, and when they are they usually resent it.
Hey Ricky, who gives a ####? I don't want to pay taxes, do you understand that?They can breed, smoke crack, live in their communes and they can also choke on their "peace and love " nonsense for all I care. I have every interest not to mind my own business when these morons don't mind theirs. If they all decided to live in a commune that would be nice, the thing is it doesn't work like that. I have no idea why they don't just move, I'll find out and share it on these forums soon enough.
If they all just moved in their "anarcho-commune" , I doubt anyone in their right mind would go there to "convert" them to libertarianism. That would be incredibly stupid, unfortunately this is not the case. Infact if someone plays the role of "crusader" I will not call myself a libertarian anymore.
I'm restarting my business of bagels this summer(Yes, thank you), and it's getting pretty yuckky. This is what I have to look forward to(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPPBWqi4wJY&feature=player_embedded#at=13). Enjoy.
Hey Ricky, who gives a ####? I don't want to pay taxes, do you understand that?
Neither do I, but preaching at them is not going to help.
They can breed, smoke crack, live in their communes and they can also choke on their "peace and love " nonsense for all I care.
Sure, I don't resent them any more than I resent cattle, but still, they are what they are.
I have every interest not to mind my own business when these morons don't mind theirs.
And if I were Herakles I would tear down the walls of Troy, but I'm not so I basically have to put up with the morons. Enough Liliputians can take down any giant.
@gocrew
No, it just proves that nature has not produced a uniform species. But the norm which is self-selecting amongst humans is herdism and volk economics; regression to the mean breeds out these traits except in a small set of circumstances where such people have an advantage; that is in the rare cases where survival depends more on being right than on being popular. The more civilized we become the less often this happens.
I am not going to give up simply because certain elitists insist that nothing can be done. Even if that were true, I'm not going to spend the only life I shall ever have ensconced in my basement dreaming of a better society.
Nor do I. I just don't worry about it. Economics and philosophy are interesting in their own right, I don't have to rationalize my interest by becoming a prophet for libertarian justice.
Improvements can be made; ideas matter and have consequences. Our ideas could have wonderful consequences, but not if we stay silent.
As Mark 8:18 says, "Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?" These people aren't going to hear you, and if you get shrill enough they'll shut you up.
Ricky James Moore II:The notion that men can be reformed is the sheerest faith.
Demonstrably untrue, as I said earlier. I am living proof of that.
gocrew: Ricky James Moore II:The notion that men can be reformed is the sheerest faith. Demonstrably untrue, as I said earlier. I am living proof of that. No, you are living proof of a variation in the genotype. People like you are a very small segment of the population. I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living. | Post Points: 50
I think this idea of intellectual determinism is asinine. I wasn't born an anarcho-capitalist and I've never met one. I don't buy into the idea I'm some variation of a genotype - that's some sort of mastubatory nonsense.
Drew:If you are used to talking to people who share leftist or conservative views, you will likely not want to have anything to do with them either.
It turns out this is untrue. I talk with these people all the time, engage them. With some I have made some significant headway. I find that the more they like you, the more they will listen to you. I will be the first to lament that this is the way things are, but being that it is so, we can proceed with a plan of conversion. And this is not to say I have always been a perfectly friendly missionary of libertarianism either. I have gotten into some nasty discussions on the web, and maybe I was wrong to do so, but when I have engaged people, rather than bickered with them, I have had some success.
Drew:Being insulted and hated is not fun, Lew knows that and he certainly experienced it.
I understand, but I wasn't proposing it as being fun. Rather I thought it would be good for humanity. Like you say, he has his reasons, and I have my reasons to be disappointed that he didn't accept the invitations.
Drew:Although, I can see why so many people loose hope.
I do too. But I don't agree with it. Even if things don't become perfectly libertarian, they might become incrementally better.
Drew:I just explained to people from my college why "direct democracy" does not work. I've been giving a monologue with detailed explanation on all the flaws of direct democracy", and all I got was "OMG you're an idiot". I guess I am, I shouldn't have waisted my time.
BUT... you exposed them to new ideas. The first step in converting someone is exposing them to your ideas. You can't know how many people were still thinking about it the next day, nor how many had a nagging voice in their head saying, "This guy actually made some sense, much as I hate to admit it." Now what if someone follows up on what you did, and they hear yet again these ideas, perhaps packaged in a slightly different way, and suddenly they find themselves thinking about it again? What if ten years from now someone at your speech sees a book that reminds him of you and, years having past and the shock of it having worn off, he picks it up and starts to read, starts to become convinced, or at least partially convinced. What if he starts to drift in his political attitudes?
What you did was a good thing. I wasn't there so I don't know if you did it well or poorly or a mix of both, but the act itself was a wise one. We can't just clam up even if the weight of opposing opinion feels like a tidal wave. I repeat: what you did was a good thing.
Neither do I, but then again, he does make a point. Either way, it doesn't mean anything.
Ricky James Moore II:No, it just proves that nature has not produced a uniform species. But the norm which is self-selecting amongst humans is herdism and volk economics; regression to the mean breeds out these traits except in a small set of circumstances where such people have an advantage; that is in the rare cases where survival depends more on being right than on being popular. The more civilized we become the less often this happens.
But again, it's not black and white. So I propose we reach as many as we can.
Ricky James Moore II:Nor do I. I just don't worry about it. Economics and philosophy are interesting in their own right, I don't have to rationalize my interest by becoming a prophet for libertarian justice.
I'm not asking you too. I am simply saying that in Lew's case, where he clearly has chosen a life of keeping the flame alive and spreading the word, he is missing out on opportunities.
Ricky James Moore II:These people aren't going to hear you, and if you get shrill enough they'll shut you up.
I ask again, how can you know they won't hear me? Do you mean not a single one will hear? Are there varying degrees or are you saying this is black and white, and they are all of one uniform color?
And the shrill element, while wise advice, is something you are injecting. Of course the way you package the message is going to influence how it is received; that goes without saying. I wasn't proposing that Lew go on the show and start screaming at the top of his lungs. He should be calm and rational as he always seems to be. Doing that, I think it unimaginable that he could go entirely unheard by the entire audience and not expose anyone to new ideas or make them think.
Mtn Dew:I think this idea of intellectual determinism is asinine. I wasn't born an anarcho-capitalist and I've never met one. I don't buy into the idea I'm some variation of a genotype - that's some sort of mastubatory nonsense.
Amen.
gocrew:BUT... you exposed them to new ideas. The first step in converting someone is exposing them to your ideas.
Take the "Education is a right not a merchandise", sounds awfully poetic doesn't it? I ask questions like " Is free education a right even for those who pay taxes?". Sadly, all I get is "NO, YOU ARE WRONG, I CAN'T BELEIVE YOU SAID THAT!!!!!". That's fun to watch.
Yes, I enjoy seeing people with the seed of doubt in their eyes. That's the only reason I enage in debates.
Ricky James Moore II:No, you are living proof of a variation in the genotype. People like you are a very small segment of the population.
Ricky, you make a lot of assertions. Which genes do I have that differ from other non-libertarian humans? And why are my ancestors not famously libertarian by now? Why is it me slowly converting my dad and not the other way around, since he had 34 years before I was born to start exhibiting his genotype? How were my dad's dad and mom inveterate racists and I am not?
By saying I am living proof of a variation in genotype, you are stating that the fact of my conversion to Austro-libertarianism is proof that the cause was genetic. Nonsense. The fact of my conversion is proof of nothing but the conversion. I would like to see evidence that my genes make me libertarian, that this is hard and fast and not a tendency, and that everyone else is the same way, i.e., I would like to see proof of iron-clad genetic determinism.
Even if our genes sway our beliefs - and this is something I would be disposed towards accepting - that is a long way away from outright determinism and therefore proselytising can still be worthwhile.
Drew: Yes, I enjoy seeing people with the seed of doubt in their eyes. That's the only reason I enage in debates.
And from that seed something good can grow.
Ricky James Moore II:Because you're an outlier, like 90% of all libertarians are. For that matter, like 90% of Nazis are in the modern world. People who can stray from the herd aren't made, they're born. Where you end up is a matter of environment somewhat, but most people can't if they wanted to. We will always be a minority; they will always 'win' in the large scale. Read Albert Jay Nock or Mencken some time.
To what extent do you agree with the following statement; ''the larger the crowd, the stupider it gets'.
I agree gocrew, I think he should go on the shows. But what can you do?
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
I happen to realize that I agree with you. I find that when I'm not hostile or arrogant when I share my views, people listen to me and actually try to understand me. I hate to be like that, I happen to be very idealistic but some people are just hopeless. see here http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/23045/402430.aspx#402430
I don't care if others agree with my thoughts or not. All I care about is living my own life. I do not believe my preferred political outcome will ever be a reality. But it is fun to discuss such a hypothetical scenario with intellectuals such as the ones over here.
Mtn Dew: I think this idea of intellectual determinism is asinine. I wasn't born an anarcho-capitalist and I've never met one. I don't buy into the idea I'm some variation of a genotype - that's some sort of mastubatory nonsense. He's just describing his own failures of having an impact. It's a self-perpetuating idea that you can't influence people. And then we see this guy not producing things to educate. VforVoluntary.com | Youtube.com/Nielsio | Reddit.com/r/austrian_economics | Post Points: 5
A libertarian that sacrifices his own private life for the greater good? That's not a libertarian in my book. Being a libertarian isn't about spreading the word and try to convince everyone to be free.
That's pretty much it, I doubt any libertarians are out there to force others into conversion. There is a chance that anarcho-capitalism might happen one day, alot of people have been coming to this political movement(mostly because of Ron Paul). One thing is certain, libertarian ideas will atleast be adopted, it's not going to happen over night.
I'm trying to understand Somalia, some people have told me it's terrible because of the Islamic religion but somehow I doubt that.
bramElias: Being a libertarian isn't about spreading the word and try to convince everyone to be free.
Don't you have to do that when everyone else is convincing you otherwise?
BramElias:A libertarian that sacrifices his own private life for the greater good? That's not a libertarian in my book. Being a libertarian isn't about spreading the word and try to convince everyone to be free.
"I think these outlets are beneath any thinking person."
Isn't that being a snob?
Gocrew, I don't think you appreciate the simple fact that television people pride themselves on their lack of manners.
Example 1: One TV anchor referred to Scott Brown's daughters as "prostitutes", even though these were junior school girls still among immature peers who can make cruel jokes.
Example 2: David Sirota lashed out at a debate opponent television by telling him, "You get your opinions from cocktail parties".
Whatever I know of American television is from YouTube. I would not give those people the time of the day. In real life, the most offensive thing anyone ever says to me or I ever say to them is, "I don't want to speak with you any further."
PS: May be it is not a television thing, but an American thing to lack courtesy and manners when talking? Apologies in advance to American posters if I am wrong.