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Leaving America

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Zephyr Posted: Wed, Apr 13 2011 11:54 AM

I'm not sure when I arrived at this decision, but when I graduate from college I have every intenion of leaving America, I just don't want to be part of this country anymore. The only part I haven't figured out is where I should move to. I obviously want a more free country, but there are a couple that fit my criteria. My ideas so far are

New Zealand

Austraillia

Singapore

Lichtenstein

What places would you guys suggest?

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Cal Engime replied on Wed, Apr 13 2011 11:56 AM

Did your ancestors come from a country in which you can easily obtain citizenship by reason of being their descendant?

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boniek replied on Wed, Apr 13 2011 12:01 PM

You can not simply waltz into Singapore. You have to get a work permit to get there. I'm afraid Lichtenstein has some restrictions on immigraton too. Australia? Last time I checked communists were in power and voting is compulsory lol. I would suggest places where they just shunned communism for what it really is and trying to embrace free market principles, like maybe Montenegro. Truth is there is no place that is good to settle for life for an ancap in democrazy infested world.

"Your freedom ends where my feelings begin" -- ???
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America is a big place, why not try another area?  If you live in the city, try the country; if you live in on the west coast, try the east coast.  Learn state laws: where are the alcohol monopolies, where are taxes low, where can you do the things that YOU care about?  Economic freedom is great for bringing prosperity to the masses, but is it more important to you that you be able to start a company with less red tape or be able to smoke pot without being thrown in jail (I'm pretty sure Singapore gives the death penalty to drug offenders)? 

If you really have your heart set on expatriating, try South America.  Ecuador, Peru, Chile, and Argentina are apparently hot spots. 

they said we would have an unfair fun advantage

"enough about human rights. what about whale rights?" -moondog
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Sphairon replied on Wed, Apr 13 2011 12:30 PM

America is not the worst of places for a friend of liberty. It heavily depends on where you live, though.

Before you try to settle down in a foreign country with a potentially alien culture, try to establish yourself in one of the more libertarian US states. There's a big difference between New York and Florida and Montana.


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OP: Why not try New Hampshire?

 

 

Sphairon, what is your avatar from?

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The libertarian way IMO is becoming a perpetual traveler.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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liberty student:

The libertarian way IMO is becoming a perpetual traveler.

We should colonize space.

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Merlin replied on Wed, Apr 13 2011 2:01 PM

I doubt anyone here will ever have a chance to live in Lichtenstein. Those guys are paranoid about immigration.

 

I suspect the second best would be some good old anglo-saxon country. Austrlia and NZ are not so bad, I hear.

 

Otherwise a few weeks in Chile, Singapore, Estonia or, why not, Albania would help anyone make his mind up.

The Regression theorem is a memetic equivalent of the Theory of Evolution. To say that the former precludes the free emergence of fiat currencies makes no more sense that to hold that the latter precludes the natural emergence of multicellular organisms.
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Bardock replied on Wed, Apr 13 2011 2:10 PM

Chile is a great country imo. Fairly economically free as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lteLWtfdbeM&feature=related
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Sphairon replied on Wed, Apr 13 2011 2:21 PM

Sphairon, what is your avatar from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Tentacle


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I'm honestly considering moving to Japan and teaching American history there. Not because of the political conditions there but because teachers are so underappreciated in the U.S. and the market for history teachers seems pretty saturated here. It could change by the time I get my PhD.

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Nielsio, I'm living in Taiwan, and I'm enjoying it.  But I'm interested to know what in particular you think is excellent about it.

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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Kakugo replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 2:08 AM

I have friends who moved to New Zealand from the UK. Apart from the earthquake issue (they live near Christchurch) they are pretty happy with their decision. The only issue they reported is how expensive food is, but it takes little effort to find farmers and ranchers selling fresh meat and vegetables directly to customers on the cheap. If you have any skill, it's pretty easy to find a job and obtain an immigration permit: New Zealand always needs teachers, doctors, skilled heavy machinery operators etc.

The Kiwis (even most government officials) believe in common sense more than in laws and in "small community" solidarity more than in forced redistribution.

Ops, I forgot one thing: stock up on sunscreen lotion. New Zealand sits just under a thinning in the ozone layer and it's the skin cancer capital of the world. Even dog and cat owners are advised to put sunscreen on their pets' noses.

Together we go unsung... together we go down with our people
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Nielsio replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 7:19 AM

Daniel James Sanchez:

Nielsio, I'm living in Taiwan, and I'm enjoying it.  But I'm interested to know what in particular you think is excellent about it.

 
I just woke up and may be able to elaborate more later, but I posted a lengthy trip report (with pictures) here:
 
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Some countries that you have mentioned I would like to visit/move to. But if you only speak english I would have thought that most of the countries in east asia are difficult to survive, getting a job, finding your way around etc?

As I only speak english I thought that it would mean that I am limited to english speaking countries or in the case that i could get a job working for an english speaking firm, I would still struggle to meet people and find places...

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AJ replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 10:23 AM

Zephyr:

I obviously want a more free country, but there are a couple that fit my criteria. My ideas so far are

New Zealand

Austraillia

Singapore

Lichtenstein

What places would you guys suggest?

It's pretty hard to do without knowing your criteria. For the vast majority of people, their specific situation, goals, and preferences will depend a lot more on all the other major differences between countries than on the difference in freedom. And even if you care only about freedom, what aspects - business freedom, civil liberties, social permissiveness, low taxes?

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Zephyr replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 10:38 AM

I live in Michigan near Detroit, it's a mess. I'm learning Mandarin and Spanish, so I'm open to learning other languages as well. More libertarian leaning states is a good idea, but the federal government is what I have the most fear of. America, as I'm sure many of you are aware, isn't on a good track and I'm a firm believer in the idea of voting with your feet. If the smart, capable, hard-working individuals leave the system, it will fail that much faster. I realize as an ancap I'll have problems anywhere, I'm just looking to minimize them.

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Zephyr replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 10:40 AM

Civil and economic freedoms, where ever you can get the best combination. I only know vaguely of some of the countries that are supposed to be freer, but I feel like I might be missing some gems. Someone mentioned how socially draconian Singapore is, that would be unacceptable.

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The commercial language of the world is english.  Rather than learn to speak another language worse than the locals (who already have lots of people who speak their language competently) why not look for business opportunities abroad and in the digital realm? 

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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I have considering moving out my current home not for libertarian reasons, but just to move. I live on the east coast. I'm considering:

New York (which is ten minutes from me laugh, so it would not be a hard move)

California (NO WINTER FTW)

Germany (or somewhere in Europe, I like traveling a lot, and there's a wider range of change between European countries then American change)

By the way OP, government is oppressive, yada yada and sucks. It hurts everyone. But you can still have happiness even living under it.

Freedom has always been the only route to progress.

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Yeah, Libertyandlife, when I saw that list before I read the rest of your post, I knew it couldn't be for libertarian reasons.

California is great, but not free. Check out San Diego and the suburbs around L.A, like Thousand Oaks. It's beautiful; I used to live there, and would probably move back in a heartbeat. 

New York is worse.

Germany is the worst, for freedom, that is.

“Remove justice,” St. Augustine asks, “and what are kingdoms but gangs of criminals on a large scale? What are criminal gangs but petty kingdoms?”
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filc replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 2:35 PM

I plan on leaving apon retirement. There are plenty of 3rd world pockets of blissful happyness I already have in mind. One of which I already lived at for a while. 

 

Peaceful, stateless, quiet, relaxing, fun.

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Bohemian replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 8:00 PM

Try New Hampshire or Texas before you leave the US, or at least while you prepare to. Nevada also is still pretty free. I will be relocating to Texas at the end of the calendar year, then likely to NH once my engagments there are complete. With any luck--particularly in the case of economic cataclysm for the US, NH is a very likely candidate for sessesion for all of the right reasons. Taxes are very low, civil liberties and rights are very high, standard of living and education are also superb. The economy lacks turmoil and is consistently positive. Their greatest vice is neighboring those Commies in Massacheusetts.

Other than that, I can only recommend Switzerland. Their xenophobia is quite a shame though. I spent a great deal of time in communication within the Swiss consolate of San Francisco, CA and they all but out-right told me don't waste my time unless I have some lineage there. Still, with money and about a decade, you can succeed in winning your Swiss nationalization.

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ricarpe replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 8:26 PM

I looked into the idea of expatriation from the US.  It could be rewarding.  Just remember, you'll owe taxes to the US on your income if your new home has a lower tax rate -- and yes, they do enforce it has been reported to me from a friend who moved to the UK for a job.  He and his wife decided to move back to the US (she's a UK national) and now reside in Colorado.

Another note: renouncing your citizenship is not as simple as some say it is.  I have read a few stories, and again from my friends experience, it does seem like the US wants to maintain you as a taxpaying citizen.

As for places to move in the US, as others have mentioned New Hampshire looks most promising with its Free State Project.  I've been told that Texas is also a more liberal state, and I mean that in the classical definition of the word.  My brother is in Wyoming and it's pretty liberal there, too, from what I've seen while visiting and what he's experienced.  I've also heard that Idaho is a good spot as well.

Whatever you decide, I wish you luck.

"All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree." -James Madison

"If government were efficient, it would cease to exist."

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Neodoxy replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 9:40 PM

I know that I probably shouldn't be putting another country on the list but I impore you to look at Hong Kong. I feel like Hong Kong is one of the most beautiful places on earth, the city is fantastic and possibly the most economically free place on earth. I seem to recall that it has practically no tariffs whatsover (average tariff rate= 0% I'm pretty sure) and it could be one of the most visible triumphs of capitalism of our time, so if I were you I would choose Hong Kong, I really hope to go there for a significant amount of time, and if I didn't have some serious buisness in America then I would probably be trying to move there as well.

Out of your current list I'd probably move either to Lichtenstien or Taiwan. As I think you'd have a really hard time getting into the former, go latter.  

At last those coming came and they never looked back With blinding stars in their eyes but all they saw was black...
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Eric080 replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 10:13 PM

I think it's funny that when I saw Liberty and Life's avatar of Thoreau that it reminded me of this quote (brought to you and interpreted by Sparknotes):

 

5. It is not worth the while to go round the world to count the cats in Zanzibar.

This statement from the “Conclusion” of Walden illustrates another debt on Thoreau’s part to the American Transcendentalist school of his philosophical mentor, Ralph Waldo Emerson. In Emerson’s influential essay “Self-Reliance,” which Thoreau’s Walden project could be said to put into practice, Emerson makes the assertion that “travel is a fool’s paradise,” and that it is far more useful to change one’s soul than to change one’s landscape. The fool who thinks that his life will change on a trip to Europe is shocked and disappointed to discover, after unpacking his suitcase on arrival, that he is still in the same tedious company of himself. For Emerson the futility of travel is simply a consequence of his belief in the centrality of the self—the depth and health of the soul—in all human affairs. Thoreau inherits this same belief, downgrading the usual glamour of international travel (in this case to Zanzibar, off the coast of East Africa) with the ridiculous enterprise of counting felines. The point of this mockery is to point to a better alternative to African voyages. As he intimates earlier when he ironically notes that he has traveled a lot in Concord, Thoreau insists that the most valuable kind of travel occurs without leaving one’s hometown: the inward voyage of soul-searching.

Earlier I kind of thought that maybe there was some libertarian conflict on the idea of traveling across the globe (although I realize Thoreau isn't stating a case in the name of libertarianism or anything).  I know Doug Casey has lived in many countries.  In some way though, travel can take the form of soul-searching in that it helps you find out where you're comfortable and opens you to new experiences.

 

Just some food for thought smiley

"And it may be said with strict accuracy, that the taste a man may show for absolute government bears an exact ratio to the contempt he may profess for his countrymen." - de Tocqueville
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I'd also suggest giving consideration to New Hampshire.

They have no state income tax or sales tax.

I'm considering it, myself.

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DanielMuff replied on Thu, Apr 14 2011 10:24 PM

filc:

I plan on leaving apon retirement. There are plenty of 3rd world pockets of blissful happyness I already have in mind. One of which I already lived at for a while. 

 

Peaceful, stateless, quiet, relaxing, fun.

You're not that old are you?

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Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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I have heard that the chinese were inspired by the Austrian School. No irony there.

Nielsio, those are some awesome pictures. I want to visit!

Freedom has always been the only route to progress.

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Same here, I'm leaving Nevada for Texas (only temporary), then off to N.H. 

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Zephyr replied on Fri, Apr 15 2011 10:43 AM

I don't mind learning languages, I've found I have a knack for it. What's more, I love it too, so it doesn't bother me.

Hong Kong sounds intriguing, I just don't know how I feel about having China breathing down my neck.

I have no intenion of paying the exit tax, it's just too incredibly facist for me. So when I leave America, I'm pretty sure I'm leaving for good.

On that note, I didn't know any of those things about New Hampshire, I'll have to check it out. It could be a good place to set down roots and build some wealth so I can leave the country a more affluent individual. I'm attending college at the University of Oklahoma, and Oklahoma isn't a bad state. Near Texas too :)

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I'm at OU, too. I'm majoring in economics and will be graduating in May. What's your major?

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Brutus replied on Fri, Apr 15 2011 7:08 PM

@American Psycho

Is your pic of Bonnar's second fight after the Polish Experiment? Not relevant, I know, but I think I guessed right on that one. Both fights were awesome.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" -Patrick Henry

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Brutus replied on Fri, Apr 15 2011 7:13 PM

@Zephyr

Seems like you've really thought this through, condemning one yet not knowing the other. Are you kidding?

Look, I'm not one to say stay or go, but know what you're getting into. Damn, I know America has a growing government and is practically a police state in some ways, but there is still good in our country. I would rather live here than anywhere else in the whole world.

So why choose to live in one of the aforementioned countries versus America? Just remember, condemning an argument does not mean a solution is automatically inferred or arrived at. You have a$$holes that sneak across our border and risk their lives to make a life for themselves in a free country, yet when you figure out that America isn't perfectly free in every definition, you automatically think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence...without even seeing the grass to begin with.

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" -Patrick Henry

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@Brutus Yes that was bonner's poise after winning the fight. Best UFC PPV EVER!

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Chyd3nius replied on Sat, Apr 16 2011 2:55 PM

There is no libertarian paradise anywhere. I'm quite sure that all libertarians have considered of moving to another country - and for you americans, many have thought about USA. I suggest that you try New Hampshire first, because if freedom is your only criterion for location, I'm quite sure all that immigration and foreign culture stuff is not worth it.

-- --- English I not so well sorry I will. I'm not native speaker.
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s burgess replied on Sun, Apr 17 2011 1:13 AM

Kakugo:

I have friends who moved to New Zealand from the UK. Apart from the earthquake issue (they live near Christchurch) they are pretty happy with their decision. The only issue they reported is how expensive food is, but it takes little effort to find farmers and ranchers selling fresh meat and vegetables directly to customers on the cheap. If you have any skill, it's pretty easy to find a job and obtain an immigration permit: New Zealand always needs teachers, doctors, skilled heavy machinery operators etc.

The Kiwis (even most government officials) believe in common sense more than in laws and in "small community" solidarity more than in forced redistribution.

Ops, I forgot one thing: stock up on sunscreen lotion. New Zealand sits just under a thinning in the ozone layer and it's the skin cancer capital of the world. Even dog and cat owners are advised to put sunscreen on their pets' noses.

from nelson  new zealand never been advised to put sun screen on my cat i haven't used it in years but people from the UK seem to burn easily"i love it here but its sadly its no bastion of freedom we were the first welfare state.but it is easy to start a business no subsidies easy to avoid tax  and free trade is the norm  "well importing is the eu and us miss out on most of our agg goods"pay here is horrid Australia trumps us.but if you like nature and a no pressure culture its a good place.my advice would be travel the world find what suits you.ps dont over look korea if you want low taxes and a good job my mates love it there.

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As an Australian, my advice is to remain in the USA.  Compared to Australia it is still the land of opportunity.  Everything is so much more expensive in Australia (due to smaller economy as a result of lower population/trade barriers), especially house prices - which are generally 3x that of the USA (due to restriction of supply and government subsidies).  I for my part plan on going to the United States.

There, is, however a great amount of opportunities in the mining industry, so if that is something that interests you, you should look into immigrating to Western Australia - the richest (per capita) and most free part of the continent, which is where most of the mining activity takes place.  If you have specific skills that are in demand, you might be able to find a good offer to help with the moving process (i.e. accomodation options).  If your aim in immigrating is to live somewhere at least somewhat libertarian, you probably wouldn't be very happy living in Melbourne, Tasmania or, to a slightly lesser extent, Sydney.

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