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Hunting and gathering

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 That doesn't necessarily mean that agriculture will inevitably lead to states.

K I see where your getting at but lets look at the situation realistically: there has NEVER been a 100% stateless society that's been 100% agricultural. Id still prefer to get ag out of my life/diet all together.

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"Stateless" is extremely hard to define, especially when you are qualifying it with a percentage.  Moden American society is not 100% agricultural, either.  It's more like 99.9995%.

Suffice it to say, there are examples of "agrarian", "stateless" societies.  I had posted some previously.

I also stand fast to my position that the state requires fraud; a con in order to convince people to surrender their self-determination.  If a society does not have that deception at its root, the meme of the state is a hard sell.

 

"What Stirner says is a word, a thought, a concept; what he means is no word, no thought, no concept. What he says is not what is meant, and what he means is unsayable." - Max Stirner, Stirner's Critics
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AJ replied on Tue, Nov 15 2011 8:34 PM

I'd say the state is a very easy sell: just appeal to everyone's tribal instincts. That's why just about everyone buys it.

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Perhaps, but then what is to be done?

"What Stirner says is a word, a thought, a concept; what he means is no word, no thought, no concept. What he says is not what is meant, and what he means is unsayable." - Max Stirner, Stirner's Critics
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I'd say the state is a very easy sell: just appeal to everyone's tribal instincts. That's why just about everyone buys it.

Once people experience a peaceful voluntary society NO ONE will ever want to go back to statism.

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I certainly hope you are right! Elimination of ignorance is the key.

"What Stirner says is a word, a thought, a concept; what he means is no word, no thought, no concept. What he says is not what is meant, and what he means is unsayable." - Max Stirner, Stirner's Critics
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That's why I want to introduce more people to primitive living since that ensures that the state will never return. We know that civ is going to collapse some day and right before it does the state will become its most tyrannical, so better leave it now and watch it die then let it become a monster.

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Be warned, even personal secession is not tolerated.

"What Stirner says is a word, a thought, a concept; what he means is no word, no thought, no concept. What he says is not what is meant, and what he means is unsayable." - Max Stirner, Stirner's Critics
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That's why I'm moving to NH. Least tyrannical gov.

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AJ replied on Sun, Nov 20 2011 4:27 AM

"What is to be done?" Simply alert people to the fact that their tribal instincts are maladapted to modern, giant society, so their innate idea of how big a state should be is going to be fighting them every step of the way. Education is the key.

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Or just show them the amount of poison the gov. puts in our food supply and compare it w/ a 100% natural diet.

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Yeah, then at least you're only ingesting 100% natural poisons and disease vectors!

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Look, H/Gs don't get autism or cancer or any of the diseases we get now in our statist ag-driven society. Ag is NOT sustainable.

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Eric replied on Mon, Nov 21 2011 11:44 PM

99% of the population would rather live in a civilized society with a state than a primitive society without one. I know I sure would, and I can't understand how someone wouldn't. Either way, there is not going to be a collapse of civilization.

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99% of the population would rather live in a civilized society with a state than a primitive society without one.

Yes b/c they've been so corrupted by civ.

Either way, there is not going to be a collapse of civilization.

Are you sure?

 

 

 

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Jargon replied on Tue, Nov 22 2011 1:14 AM

F4M, the "Law of Life" is definitively anti-propertarian. How can you then claim that H/G's are capitalists if they are not allowed to exclude their competitors access to something.

Land & Liberty

The Anarch is to the Anarchist what the Monarch is to the Monarchist. -Ernst Jünger

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Look, F4M. You can horde all the gold you want. All I know is that in a post-civ world, tobacco and liquor are going to be more valuable to me and the people I know than gold.

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F4M, the "Law of Life" is definitively anti-propertarian. How can you then claim that H/G's are capitalists if they are not allowed to exclude their competitors access to something.

I never said that. The purpose of the videos is to show why civ will collapse.

Look, F4M. You can horde all the gold you want. All I know is that in a post-civ world, tobacco and liquor are going to be more valuable to me and the people I know than gold.

lol

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Laugh all you want, but let's be real. There's no reason to believe gold would be valuable in a post-civ society. It's not that rare, it's not that useful, and plenty of other metals look just as nice. It might be surging in value against the dollar, but gold just isn't practical from a survivalist standpoint.

Some indigenous populations used gold for religious practices or to denote high preists, but they were sedentary societies. If you're planning on spending most of your time tramping through the forest looking for food, gold is just going to weigh you down.

$0.02

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Malachi replied on Sat, Nov 26 2011 6:16 PM
Freedom4me, could you provide a useful definition civilization collapse? Your videos were unhelpful.
Keep the faith, Strannix. -Casey Ryback, Under Siege (Steven Seagal)
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There's no reason to believe gold would be valuable in a post-civ society. It's not that rare, it's not that useful, and plenty of other metals look just as nice. It might be surging in value against the dollar, but gold just isn't practical from a survivalist standpoint.

Are you kidding???? After civ's collapse a means of exchange will develop naturally and there's no reason to think it wouldn't naturally be gold or some other precious metal.

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Eventually, maybe.  If gold were the only type of money used though, we would run into an immediate monetary crisis.  Not to mention that there would be much more pressing necessity for acutely useful commodities, such as bullets, chickens, etc.

"What Stirner says is a word, a thought, a concept; what he means is no word, no thought, no concept. What he says is not what is meant, and what he means is unsayable." - Max Stirner, Stirner's Critics
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Freedom4me, could you provide a useful definition civilization collapse? Your videos were unhelpful.

Resources drying up, peak oil, soil failing out after having to deal w/ ag for centuries, massive overpopulation, gov. becoming way too tyrannical, infrastructure breaking apart.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risks_to_civilization,_humans_and_planet_Earth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivism

 

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This thread is fun. :)

"Are you kidding???? After civ's collapse a means of exchange will develop naturally and there's no reason to think it wouldn't naturally be gold or some other precious metal."

Really? After a collapse in civilization why would precious metals be valuable? This thread is about hunting and gathering. Assuming that's what you're picturing post-civ life as being, there is no reason metal would be of any use. Is anyone going to have the means to process gold in your post-civ world? And why would people value it in a situation where survival is the most present goal? Gold is heavy, and not really good for anything other than looking at.

Other metals are better for tools and weapons, and gold has almost always been something to denote status. Unless we're going to rebuild temples and start giving libations, gold is going to be pretty useless. Barter is more convenient, doesn't weigh you down, and doesn't require mining. Is there going to be mining in your post-civ world?

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and start giving libations

You're giving the answer yourself.  If we are going primitive, booze will be primo.  If I am wearing a loin cloth with a thick beard how in the hell do you expect me to drink my meade?  From a goat bladder wine sack, not likely!  This is about primitivism, not barbarism.

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence"  - GLS Shackle

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Well, I'm not drinking from gold now, and I expect my socio-economic status to drop in a post-civ world. Call me a pessimist.

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Well, if we're in the world Freedom4Me spells out where it's good to have gold, be a capitalist,  want civ to topple down, and not want to associate with anybody...it may be a world where you have no gold cups today to a gold cup tommorow, I see no contraindication otherwise.  I mean I really don't know the rules and what I can or can't say in this world, so what the hell.

 

All I know is, if I live in his world and I have to grow a giant beard and wear animal hides - I want to be drinking my libations from a gold goblet.  What else would I have to do?

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence"  - GLS Shackle

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Maybe F4M has confused this with a LARPing site?

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Bert replied on Tue, Dec 6 2011 12:22 AM

I'd like to know F4M's definition of civilization.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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The common definition (that I have trouble with) is society dependent upon importation. Where the line between import and trade is troubles me.

So the next (and better) is society that is dependent on resources outside of its bioregion. Seeing as how F4M rarely if ever talks about ecology, that's probably not their definition.

Whatever their definition, apparently mining and metal processing isn't a mark of civilization.

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Bert replied on Tue, Dec 6 2011 1:58 AM

Apparently he wants to return to a way of living that's actually backwards in technological progress which hinders other fields.  To actually return to a way of living where this conversation itself through modern technology and communication would not be able to take place (he's for a way of life that's against the means of him communicating to return to that way of life - it's like using the capitalist modes of production to publish copies of Das Kapital).  We're not just talking about a way of living 2,000 years ago, I'm sure even Plato and Aristotle lived most luxuriously for their times, but a way of living that's lower in standards itself.  Somehow this is "better" because there's no "collective" (god forbid, a collective!).  What if I want to live in some sort of social collective?  Y'know, a large community with people who have like minded views on culture, etc?

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Cooperation is actually quite useful.

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There might be more to voluntary simplicity than the "capitalists" on this site seem to be willing to grant.  Civilization brought us the state too, after all.  It's really a matter of what one's goals are.

"What Stirner says is a word, a thought, a concept; what he means is no word, no thought, no concept. What he says is not what is meant, and what he means is unsayable." - Max Stirner, Stirner's Critics
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Malachi replied on Tue, Dec 6 2011 7:07 PM
It sounds lke civ already has collapsed, according to you...
Keep the faith, Strannix. -Casey Ryback, Under Siege (Steven Seagal)
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It sounds lke civ already has collapsed, according to you...

Its on its way to collapse. It WILL happen in the future. Probably sooner then later since the state is wreaking havoc on the earth more then we'd know.

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Malachi replied on Mon, Dec 19 2011 7:06 PM
Ok, what is the difference between the world outside your bedroom window today, and civ collapse?
Keep the faith, Strannix. -Casey Ryback, Under Siege (Steven Seagal)
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Ok, what is the difference between the world outside your bedroom window today, and civ collapse?

This is what a civ collapse will most likely look like:

1. Drying up of natural resources (water, oil, arable land)

2. Economic collapse

3. Overpopulation

4. Increased wars

5. Extremely complex societies (see Joseph Tainter and Jared Diamond)

6. Disease outbreaks

 

#1 is the biggest factor in all of this. With natural resources drying up the state could enforce some kind of neo-feudalism or neo-communism where it takes sole ownership of all the land under the guise of "sustainability."

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Also along w/ disease outbreaks: the number of mental illness (esp. autism) going way up. It used to be one in 100000 kids had autism now I hear it's anywhere from 1 in 100 to 1 in 30. The number of other mental illness and mental conditions are going up aswell. Makes sense once you know what's in the food and vax but it's a sign we're leading towards a collapse.

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Malachi replied on Tue, Dec 20 2011 12:24 PM
All of that is already the case, look outside your bedroom window. What is the difference between the world today (increasingly scarce natural resources, economic collapse, population pressures, global war, complex societies, and the evolution and invention of increasingly deadly and robust micro-organisms) and "civ collapse" (increasingly scarce natural resources, economic collapse, population pressures, global war, complex societies, and the evolution and invention of increasingly deadly and robust micro-organisms)?
Keep the faith, Strannix. -Casey Ryback, Under Siege (Steven Seagal)
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