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*** July 2011 low content thread ***

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Bert replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 12:26 AM

For years my main reason for not going vegan is cheese, I don't even consume milk unless it's rice milk or soy milk.  Though I've been to a local pizza place that had soy cheese pizza and it was pretty delicious.  I'm willing to stop eating cheese, it's not that big of a deal, and would probably be healthier to let go.  After reading about the dairy industry and watching the videos of how dairy cows are kept it makes me want to stop usage.

Lately I've been making myself vegan meals, and I've noticed it's cheaper to buy raw vegetables instead of canned or frozen, and that you can make a more complete meal by doing so.  The other night I made quinoa (size: one cup before cooked), and steamed snap peas, broccoli, and shitake mushrooms, and it filled my girlfriend and I with some quinoa to spare (and it was a lot of food).  It only costs $6 for all of it (depending on how many vegetables you get).

I don't know why veganism is met with hostility.  I can understand if someone has a problem with a way a vegan puts forth his/her argument (don't get me wrong, I've met plenty of vegan assholes, and they mainly work and/or associated with PETA), but on the mere fact of not eating meat and not supporting the meat and dairy industry seems to frustrate people to no end.  Clearly, I see something I have a problem with, something to my own subjective value preferences, while making a decision as an informed consumer, basing my decision on many factors, and making my choice on refraining to support or make a purchase of a particular business.  Is this not what the market allows?  I see a problem with the dairy and meat industry, and the issue of my health, and it's met with negativity.  I have a problem with the way the animals are treated in both industries, and I'd feel better to withdraw support from those industries.  I'm making my choice on the market.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Clayton replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 12:38 AM

@Student: Yes, it's a close call, veganism just might be true because humans spent the majority of their evolutionary history eating raw, uncooked vegetables.

I welcome all minority viewpoints, including veganism. However, vegans are notoriously preachy and I find it annoying. To follow through on a vegan diet is insane, in my opinion... it's basically controlled starvation.

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Wheylous replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 12:51 AM

For what it's worth, I've heard that eskimos, who eat very little plant matter, are much healthier than other cultures who throughout history have relied on many carbs for their diet.

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Bert replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 1:30 AM

I welcome all minority viewpoints, including veganism. However, vegans are notoriously preachy and I find it annoying. To follow through on a vegan diet is insane, in my opinion... it's basically controlled starvation.

I've met preachy vegans who you just want to strangle, and I have 2 friends who are vegan, and so is my girlfriend, and they actually cannot stand those who are preachy (nor can I).  I prefer (when it comes to hearing something about veganism) it to be straight forward and to the point without the preachiness.  Yet, how someone acts who is vegan has nothing to do with a vegan diet, and this is something that I know can turn someone off from a certain idea or position, but the person has little to do with the idea itself.

How is veganism controlled starvation?  This is another aspect I do not understand.  First of all, eating vegan is eating healthy.  All the vegans/vegetarians I know are not underweight, and are healthy.  I actually know one vegan (who for a while only ate raw foods) who is probably over his medically suggested weight.  Also, it's not like vegans only eat salads or something to that extent.  I eat a variety of foods and nice sized meals.  A staple of my diet is rice (which I eat almost daily, and a variety of rice at that).  Hell, if you looked at my friends and I you wouldn't know we were veggie, nor can you tell by looking at someone who eats a healthy vegan diet.

People seem to get stuck in these food paradigms, and don't see out of it, but when I went vegetarian years back I noticed I ate a larger variety of food than I did when meat was the main part of my diet/meal.  My diet is more diverse with a larger variety of foods/meals.  It all comes down to knowing how to take care of yourself and know what food is out there.  Some people make the wrong decision by going veggie and having no clue on what food is out there to eat, and end up eating junk food, which is obviously the wrong route to go.

One of my friends recently bought the Veganomicon: The Ultimate Vegan Cookbook.  Consider it the Human Action of vegan cooking.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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He doesn't care....we paid for it.

Eating Propaganda

What do you mean i don't care how your day was?!

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Loppu replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 4:36 AM

Is Vernon Smith libertarian? If the answer is positive, then what kind of libertarian?

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What I want to know is how someone can purport to argue that a vegan diet is the way humans are supposed to be eating by making some kind of scientific physiological case about the way our digestive system has evolved, and that somehow a vegan diet is the "natural" way humans are "supposed" to be eating, when vegan experts openly admit outside supplementation is necessary to avoid nutrient and vitamin deficiencies that would otherwise lead to death...

In my interview with raw food expert and author Susan Schenck (a bonus download audio for those who own the book, “Living Food Cures”) we discussed the Vitamin B12 issue … plus a number of other deficiencies that vegans sometimes manifest. Susan said such deficiencies are often blamed (wrongly) on the fact certain individuals may be adhering to “a raw food diet,” when the real problem is strict veganism that is absent of sufficient supplementation.

[...] According to longstanding vegan experts, individuals who consume a wide variety of vegetables and fruits, with an emphasis on primarily vegetables (particularly the green leafy ones), who faithfully take a good B12 supplement, should not suffer from deficiencies in their diet.

That being said, Susan Schenck said she believes some people have a unique physiology that doesn’t permit them to remain 100% vegan if they want to remain healthy. In other words, even if such individuals were to take a high-quality B12 supplement … the supplement just wouldn’t cut it for them. In order to be healthy, some individuals are going to have to consume some sort of animal-based food in order for their body to have what it needs to manufacture the required (and very important) B12 vitamin.

In addition, Susan is sure the issue goes even deeper than a having a Vitamin B12 deficiency. She said vegans sometimes manifest deficiencies in some other nutrients as well.

She discovered that she started suffering from a deficiency in Vitamin D and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid). DHA is especially important with regards to cognitive function in the brain. The brain is is largely made up of DHA and a deficiency can trigger effects ranging from memory problems to Alzheimer’s disease. She uncovered these things after she started having trouble with her own memory … even though she’d been a faithful raw food vegan for several years at that point.

Note: Susan wants to make it very clear that she knows many people who have successfully followed the vegan diet for decades and are very healthy. She also knows others who got very cleaned out and were 100% raw vegan for many years and yet became unhealthy because of deficiencies. This is why she concluded through observation that veganism is not for everyone.

And this is more or less the opinion of other vegan experts I've heard.  So not only do you have an open admission that "veganism is not for everyone", you also have the point that even people who have the genetic physiology to withstand a vegan diet virtually cannot survive without some sort of supplementation of at least the B12 vitamin. 

If this diet is so natural, and humans have naturally evolved to eat this way, and this is the way everyone is "supposed" to be eating—admittedly I haven't heard many vegans with the honesty to come right out and say that's what they believe, but you'll at least hear most say that it's "healthier"—then why do even the most genetically resilient individuals require a man-made supplement to their "natural" diet to avoid deficiency and death?

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Loppu:
Is Vernon Smith libertarian? If the answer is positive, then what kind of libertarian?

Interestingly enough, this was just uploaded yesterday...I haven't watched yet, but it might provide some insight:

 

 

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Nielsio replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 8:01 AM

Top comment:

"Proving someone else is wrong doesn't demonstrate you're right, just because "general equilibrium economics" is wrong doesn't show that "experimental economics" is right. I doubt Hayek would approve of this so called "experimental economics", for an actual analysis of the work done by this man and his style of "economics" as opposed to a personal interview and a few soundbites of what he does read this mises.org/daily/1082 and mises.org/daily/1409/Experimen­tal-Economics-Indeed"

 

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Bert replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 8:28 AM

And this is more or less the opinion of other vegan experts I've heard.  So not only do you have an open admission that "veganism is not for everyone", you also have the point that even people who have the genetic physiology to withstand a vegan diet virtually cannot survive without some sort of supplementation of at least the B12 vitamin. 

If this diet is so natural, and humans have naturally evolved to eat this way, and this is the way everyone is "supposed" to be eating—admittedly I haven't heard many vegans with the honesty to come right out and say that's what they believe, but you'll at least hear most say that it's "healthier"—then why do even the most genetically resilient individuals require a man-made supplement to their "natural" diet to avoid deficiency and death?

To be honest, it's not my concern whether someone else is having problems.  You act like I'm holding on to a diet dogmatically, which I'm not.  It's a personal choice, and it isn't for everyone.  I posted that video/information because I figured a few people would be interested (and Student was).  Now, out of the information you can gather I can find information to counter it.  It would be a waste of my time to continue this.  Am I pushing this down your throat?  Am I being preachy? No.

 

Moderator note: profanities removed.
-Nielsio

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Bert:
To be honest, it's not my concern whether someone else is having problems.  You act like I'm holding on to a diet dogmatically, which I'm not.  It's a personal choice, and it isn't for everyone.  Am I pushing this down your throat?  Am I being preachy? No.

Did I say anything about you?  I asked a question about veganism and those who promote it as a "healthier" way of life and claim (or at least imply) that it is the way humans are "supposed" to be eating.

 

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James replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 10:24 AM

Being Libertarian May Cause Autism

Back in November in my column, "The Science of Libertarian Morality," I reported some recent research by University of Virginia psychologist Jonathan Haidt and his colleagues that showed how libertarian moral thinking differed from that of standard issue liberals and conservatives.

Link

Whatever, I still reckon we're the sane ones.

Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
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John James replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 12:58 PM

Even The Economist is catching on...

 

On the edge

By engulfing Italy, the euro crisis has entered a perilous new phase—with the single currency itself now at risk

 

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What we saw at FreedomFest 2011

 

 

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Gero replied on Fri, Jul 22 2011 6:30 PM

One Nation Under Sex?

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JFK cheated on:

with

?

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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Well...

The Terminator cheated on

 

with

http://cdn04.cdn.socialitelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mildred-baena-arnold-schwarzenegger-mistress-05182011-01-200x273.jpg

(By the way, the wife's name is Maria...the mistress is Mildred.  You can't write stuff like this.)

 

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Tiger Woods cheated on:

with

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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Clayton replied on Fri, Jul 22 2011 9:15 PM

Hoover ... called the Senate leaders and showed them sex files he'd compiled on them. They [complied] immediately.

Now you know the real reason why the Church is so obsessed with abstinence. Sex is perceived as dirty, therefore, those who can maintain the illusion that they are abstinent dwell On High. Don't mess with the Pope, he'll bury you, politically. Look what happened to DSK.

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Clayton replied on Sat, Jul 23 2011 3:13 AM

Clayton -

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Anyone seen this Ron Paul speech at A4M?

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Nielsio replied on Sat, Jul 23 2011 5:52 PM

There are things right in front of you, but you cannot see them because you have been conditioned not to.

 

 
 
Scene from: Interstate 60 (2002)
 

 

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Clayton replied on Sat, Jul 23 2011 6:15 PM

fnord fnord

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Nielsio replied on Sun, Jul 24 2011 2:01 PM

I don't want to give away what this is about:

 

Aquadettes

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Clayton replied on Sun, Jul 24 2011 2:41 PM

@Nielsio: Wow

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Gero replied on Sun, Jul 24 2011 9:10 PM

Gene Callahan was wrong: “Many people are touting Obama as possibly the first black president. He doesn't have a chance.” – November 29, 2006

 

Andre Marrou, Libertarian Candidate for President, 1992. Interview part 1 of 2.

Andre Marrou, Libertarian Candidate for President, 1992. Interview part 2 of 2.

 

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I'm a huge Louis Armstrong fan.  Someone put this clip up (from the movie New Orleans) in which the state forcibly shuts down the Storyville district:

Policeman: Hey you, you're destroying property!

Woman: What's it matter to you, copper? It belongs to me!

The Voluntaryist Reader: http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.com/ Libertarian forums that actually work: http://voluntaryism.freeforums.org/index.php
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Margin Call featuring Kevin Spacey, Paul Bettany, and the lady who's married to Ashton Kutcher.

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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Nielsio replied on Tue, Jul 26 2011 3:22 PM

State or Private Law Society? (by Hans-Hermann Hoppe)

 

Money And Prices (by Joseph T. Salerno)

 

A Century of War (by John V. Denson)

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The Government's War on Cameras

 

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Gero replied on Tue, Jul 26 2011 5:13 PM

Mom And Dad, I'm Gay And Also Stronger Than Both Of You, So Don't Try Any Shit

 

Mises Daily Suggestion

Apparently, there are housing protests in Israel because housing is too expensive. Why is this so?

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I understand dealing with homosexuality is not easy, but neither is dealing with AIDS, or being a dwarf, or being a minority race in a racist area...that doesn't give you the right to go around threatening violence unless people accept you.

To be perfectly honest I couldn't read that whole thing because it was just too off-putting and ironically full of useless machismo.  I realize it was printed in The Onion, so if I take it seriously I'm supposed to be labeled a moron, but it didn't exactly sound like satire to me.  That sounds like it would have gone perfectly well in any gay publication, or even something like the Huffington Post.  I could certainly see someone honestly writing it, and I have absolutely no problem imagining every kind of praise imaginable being lavished upon the author for being so "courageous" and having such "honestly".

There's only so much "I'm more powerful than you so you better watch out" I can take before I start wanting to punch the guy myself.

 

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Clayton:
it's basically controlled starvation.

You're referring to socialism?

"They all look upon progressing material improvement as upon a self-acting process." - Ludwig von Mises
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This is exciting..

HTML5 a Game Changer for Web Publishers, Advertisers

 

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The friggin 21st century is coming, and the friggin reactionaries can't stop it.

"They all look upon progressing material improvement as upon a self-acting process." - Ludwig von Mises
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For what it's worth, I've heard that eskimos, who eat very little plant matter, are much healthier than other cultures who throughout history have relied on many carbs for their diet.

1.  Lean meat has a poisonous ratio of protein to calories.  Eskimos eat more of the animal (northern animals are fatter) and they eat fish.

2. Protein restriction increases lifespan.

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The cave man diet is high on fat, so that solves number one.

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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