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So why DON'T you want to move to NH with the FSP?

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Freedom4Me73986 Posted: Tue, Jul 5 2011 3:08 AM

For the people who raise doubts about moving to New Hampshire with the Free State Project for more liberty:

What are you reasons for not being too hot about the project? I know some people on here have said NH's legal system is messed up when I brought up this topic before. What other reasons do you have for not wanting to join and move?

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I live in Europe and US immigration laws suck.

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I recently got a green card and NH is where I'd like to live in the US, but since I can hold onto it for a couple years I'm gonna wait and see what happens with the world. Myself and some fellow Austrians a forming a circle in South Africa and hope to start a branch of the Mises Institute here too!

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For myself, primarily it's friends, family, job, entrenched social connections in the local community, familiarity with my surroundings, etc.  Myself and family are friends with a lot of farmers, mechanics, doctors, etc. in the area, it just doesn't make sense to drop it all and move to NH, government breakdown or no.  That, and there already is a small liberty movement in the area, even with funky stuff like alternative currencies and barter networks.  In the 2010 elections we had a Mises University graduate who ran as an independent for Congress and got something like 5-8% of the vote.  Not stellar but very strong for that type of candidate. I just don't see the advantages that NH offers right now, at least to me.

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Winter.

Yes it's that simple.

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LogisticEarth:
For myself, primarily it's friends, family, job, entrenched social connections in the local community, familiarity with my surroundings, etc. 

Ditto.  Also, I'm not really interested in fighting for freedom, I just want it.  So long as New Hampshire isn't substantially more free than the rest of the country, I don't see why I should move there.  I'd still be paying income tax, I'd still be subject to the same federal laws.

they said we would have an unfair fun advantage

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notP replied on Tue, Jul 5 2011 10:39 AM

Job! Working in film you have two options.... NY or the peoples republic of chinafornia. Besides liberty is infectious.... I might just bring some more folks over to the light side. Also, its real close to Canada. NH will be the first to go if they invade. :)

 

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Because it's New Hampshire.

 

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its not only that the legal system is messed up, the bigger picture I was trying to get you to understand is that the legal system just represents how NH is simply the lesser of the evil on paper but in reality, the government acts exactly the same as other governments. You are not better off moving to NH simply because a good amount in the community hold FSP ideals. It is really that simple. it actually would be nice to see you reply to this view without enabling some type of logical fallacy to go with it...

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I think that taking over a state is impossible.  The more feasible option would be finding a large enough place of land (Not an entire state) that a community can function completly independent in terms of food and jobs from multi national corporations.  Then to form a City-State there and begin to demand to be released from under the jurisidiction of whereever they are at, but then want trade relations with it's surroundings.  Wouldn't hurt to have a few rich people who sympathyize with the idea, like Peter Schiff, and will work to make sure it has legitimate representatives to fight for it.

You might be able to make it a tax haven and bring in all kinds of international money.  Then, with that small amount of people it will make you all entreprenuers (AGH) and it will make more sense to lounge around and collect bills from all of the MNC's hiding money from the governments of the world.

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I'd still be paying income tax,

NH has no income tax. You wouldn't be paying anything except property tax which you can find creative ways to avoid.

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Then to form a City-State there and begin to demand to be released from under the jurisidiction of whereever they are at, but then want trade relations with it's surroundings.

That would work except NH has no major cities. The largest city here (Manchester) is barely 100,000 people and Keene is only around 20,000.

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That's even better.  The less people you have over the larger the area the better.  Having less per capita population lets you stay outside of the definitions of "Cities" and stuff.  The rich neighborhood where i lived got out of being annexed by the city because the population density was low enough.  Their property sizes were large enough to fend of the city taking over and taxing them.

So the same goes there, you don't need a huge amount of people you need a commanding amount of land and the well coordinated real productive cooperative capability of those people.

 

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I want to move to the USA and I would definitely want to live in new hampshire for a while!

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NH has no income tax.

I meant federal.  As nice as no state income tax is, the savings would end up being lower after considering the difference in cost of living (Baltimore is a cheap city) and opportunity costs of leaving my current position with my current company which has no presence in NH. 

they said we would have an unfair fun advantage

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Nevada has no state income tax either.  And it has much better weather.  And it's close to California, which has even better weather.  And it has Reno and Las Vegas...which means a lot of the groundwork for the social aspects of libertarianism is already done.  So why DON'T you move FSP to Nevada with all the better, more desirable, (i.e. more easily sold to new prospects) characteristics of the area?

 

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Wibee replied on Tue, Jul 5 2011 6:58 PM

Get me a job and i am there.  

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I would move to Nevada. 

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Nevada has no state income tax.  And it has much better weather.  And it's close to California, which has even better weather.  And it has Reno and Las Vegas...which means a lot of the groundwork for the social aspects of libertarianism is already done.  So why DON'T you move FSP to Nevada with all the better, more desirable, (i.e. more easily sold to new prospects) characteristics of the area?

101 Reasons to Move to NH

That's why.

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Joe replied on Tue, Jul 5 2011 10:25 PM

Isn't something like 80% of the land in Nevada owned by the Federal govt?

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101 Reasons to Move to New Hampshire, huh?  Sounds intriguing.  That's a lot of reasons...I'm intrigued.  Let's hear some.

 

#1 It's motto is "live free or die."

Oh...well, I mean, if it's in the state motto...

#2 It was the first state to declare independence from England... over 200 years ago.

Because that's important.

#3 New Hampshire residents were the first to seize powder and guns from the fort of William and Mary...over 200 years ago.

Because that's even more important.  And relevant too!

#4 New Hampshire was the first state to adopt a revolutionary constitution...over 200 years ago.

I gotta say I'm really getting convinced

#5 New Hampshire was the first state to hold a Constitutional Convention...over 200 years ago.

Is anyone else sensing a theme here?

#6 New Hampshire was the first state to require that its Constitution be referred to the people for approval...over 200 years ago.

I gotta tell ya this New Hampshire place sounds pretty interesting...over 200 years ago.

#7) New Hampshireps constitution is the ONLY constitution in the WORLD that expressly protects its citizens right to revolution.

Great.  So if the government get so obtrusive that the people have to revolt, it's good to know they won't be breaking any of said government's laws.  I mean it's one thing to be a revolutionary...it's another to be a lawbreaker.

#8 New Hampshire's governorship is the weakest of all the states due to our unique, constitutionally mandated system of checks and balances against the power of the governor.

Cuz when I'm determining where I want to reside, the weakness of the governor is just at the top of my list.

#9 New Hampshire offers the best representation of any state NATIONWIDE with a 400-member House of Representatives.  

Hey great.  More politicians.

#10 New Hampshire offers a true citizen legislature - a government of the people based on their $100 per year pay to legislators.

Well hey, I mean if they're only paid $100/ yr, everything must be dandy.

 

A word of advice.  When you're trying to persuade people, you begin with your strongest argument.  And quite frankly if this is the best you can do I don't see many people being convinced.  I did go through the rest of the list and while I would argue there actually were some better reasons than the first 10, they're weren't many, and the ones that were there don't weigh very heavily.  And there were plenty that were actually just as bad (if not worse/less relevant) than those 10.  I mean, is the fact that New Hampshire is home to the tallest mountain in the northeast corner of the United States exactly a selling point to convince someone to pack up and move to the far northeast corner of the United States?  Not for me.

 

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limitgov replied on Tue, Jul 5 2011 11:02 PM

i'm all talk and no action.

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Merlin replied on Wed, Jul 6 2011 12:59 AM

Nationalism, dirty old nationalism.

The Regression theorem is a memetic equivalent of the Theory of Evolution. To say that the former precludes the free emergence of fiat currencies makes no more sense that to hold that the latter precludes the natural emergence of multicellular organisms.
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Merlin replied on Wed, Jul 6 2011 1:03 AM

Wibee:
Get me a job and i am there.

A silly advise for the FSP movement: try to facilitate job finding for libertarians. Wibee is right, people mostly follow the money. What the FSP could do is 1) make sure libertarians find jobs once in NH and 2) only libertarians can use the FSB job-finding service. But again, just a silly advice.

 

 

The Regression theorem is a memetic equivalent of the Theory of Evolution. To say that the former precludes the free emergence of fiat currencies makes no more sense that to hold that the latter precludes the natural emergence of multicellular organisms.
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A word of advice.  When you're trying to persuade people, you begin with your strongest argument.  And quite frankly if this is the best you can do I don't see many people being convinced.  I did go through the rest of the list and while I would argue there actually were some better reasons than the first 10, they're weren't many, and the ones that were there don't weigh very heavily.  And there were plenty that were actually just as bad (if not worse/less relevant) than those 10.  I mean, is the fact that New Hampshire is home to the tallest mountain in the northeast corner of the United States exactly a selling point to convince someone to pack up and move to the far northeast corner of the United States?  Not for me.

This should be much more convincing:

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011/NH

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Get me a job and i am there.  

Check out the Grafton Free Market if you don't mind agorism.

http://freegrafton.com/

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Freedom4Me73986:

This should be much more convincing:

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011/NH

Oh hey...whattya know.  Nevada is only 5 spots behind NH.  That actually supports my case.  Just like this does.

 

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Making too much money where I am. I go for the quick wins and change the things I can control. Just because a group of people understand that the truth about the state, it doesn't mean I want to hang out with them. lol.

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limitgov replied on Wed, Jul 6 2011 12:38 PM

"Making too much money where I am. I go for the quick wins and change the things I can control. Just because a group of people understand that the truth about the state, it doesn't mean I want to hang out with them. lol."

dang, I wanna hang out with you....makin all that cheese....I wanna see how you do it.

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limitgov:
dang, I wanna hang out with you....makin all that cheese....I wanna see how you do it.

They make cheese in Vermont.  Right next door to New Hampshire. (They are often confused with each other but VT is the one in the shape of a "V").  Maybe you should move there afterall.

 

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"dang, I wanna hang out with you....makin all that cheese....I wanna see how you do it."

Wasn't trying to be like that.... I just mean that my family and I would probably not live as well in NH because of jobs.

What I am getting at is that I am not willing to sacrifice my or my family's well-being in any way. Like I said, I go for quick wins and I just live and let live. I don't vote. I talk to folks who care to listen about the true nature of the state. That's it.

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I just mean that my family and I would probably not live as well in NH because of jobs.

NH has the 3rd-lowest lowest unemployment rate.

http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

Nevada's unemployment rate is the highest.

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And California's was the next highest, and Florida's was two spots behind that.  Gee.  I wonder if it's a coincidence those were the three most overbuilt housing markets.  What's your point?

 

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i'm all talk and no action.

That is the kind of honesty I can relate to :)

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And California's was the next highest, and Florida's was two spots behind that.  Gee.  I wonder if it's a coincidence those were the three most overbuilt housing markets.  What's your point?

That NH is doing better than other states and is full of jobs. Employment won't be an issue. The other day I met someone who moved to NH a few months ago with the FSP and found a job within two weeks of moving there.

http://freestateproject.org/jobs

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Freedom4Me73986:
That NH is doing better than other states and is full of jobs. Employment won't be an issue. The other day I met someone who moved to NH a few months ago with the FSP and found a job within two weeks of moving there.

http://freestateproject.org/jobs

And I know a guy who met a girl and 10 minutes later was having sex with her.  So what.

And no amount of anecdotes is going to refute anything I said.  You'll have to come up with a better reason.

 

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I don't see how Nevada aka California Jr. aka the real East LA is any better than NH. For one thing NH already has dozens of liberty-minded individuals residing inside it who are doing all sorts of liberty activism incld. black market agorism and civil disobedience against victimless crime laws. Lots of in-the-system libertarians are trying to do away with state-mandated kindergarten and compulsory skooling all together.

Also, NH has unmatched political influence. Primary season started here weeks ago and MSM outlets are all over the place. NH may be the biggest shot Ron Paul and Gary Johnson have.

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Freedom4Me73986:

I don't see how Nevada aka California Jr. aka the real East LA is any better than NH. For one thing NH already has dozens of liberty-minded individuals residing inside it who are doing all sorts of liberty activism incld. black market agorism and civil disobedience against victimless crime laws. Lots of in-the-system libertarians are trying to do away with state-mandated kindergarten and compulsory skooling all together.

Also, NH has unmatched political influence. Primary season started here weeks ago and MSM outlets are all over the place. NH may be the biggest shot Ron Paul and Gary Johnson have.

hehe.  "the real east la".  That's kind of funny but I really don't see how Nevada could be considered California jr.  That kinda sounds like calling New Hampshire "Massachusetts jr".  I'm not sure you could find many more pairs of states that are farther apart from each other in terms of a lot of things, but that are physically so close together.  (And even on that freedom study you linked to, NV and CA are 42 spots apart from each other...and wouldn't you know it, NH and MA are 45 spots apart ;) ).

Look I never said Nevada as it currently is is a freer state or anything like that.  My whole point was that it's pretty free (again, only 5 spots behind #1 NH on that study you linked to), and my guess is you'd have a much easier time convincing people to move there.  And it's also not far behind NH in the primary schedule either.  Obviously I have no control over the FSP...You just asked the question and I answered.  It's New Hampshire.  And then I asked you a question in return, if they're so concerned with convincing people to move where they are, why doesn't the FSP move to a state more people are likely to be interested in moving to.

It's not like I expect FSP to move, just like I'm not sure you expected anyone here to be convinced to move to NH.  I just figured I'd humor you with discussion.

 

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Joe replied on Thu, Jul 7 2011 9:34 PM

why were you using the old link?  I was actually on the team that updates the reasons.  HERE are the 101 reasons to move to NH.

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Look I never said Nevada as it currently is is a freer state or anything like that.  My whole point was that it's pretty free (again, only 5 spots behind #1 NH on that study you linked to), and my guess is you'd have a much easier time convincing people to move there.  And it's also not far behind NH in the primary schedule either.  Obviously I have no control over the FSP...You just asked the question and I answered.  It's New Hampshire.  And then I asked you a question in return, if they're so concerned with convincing people to move where they are, why doesn't the FSP move to a state more people are likely to be interested in moving to.

OK, explain once again why Nevada is more libertarian than NH, because if that were the case it would have been at least considered for the destination of the FSP when the FSP was first established. The choice of NH for the FSP is still being debated in libertarian/anarcho-capitalist communities as we can see here. The FSP looked at NH, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, the Dakotas, Alaska and lefty/socialist states like Vermont and Delaware and chose NH. I don't see why Nevada would be more appealing than NH. Yes there's fun spots (Vegas) but NH has its places too. I want to know why Nevada would be a better state than NH.
 
And the people moving to NH from Mass are mostly anti-statists. My friend lives in Pelham, NH on the Mass border and there's tons of tea partiers there. 
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