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So why DON'T you want to move to NH with the FSP?

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Freedom4Me73986:
John James:
Look I never said Nevada as it currently is is a freer state or anything like that.

OK, explain once again why Nevada is more libertarian than NH

Seriously?

 

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John James,

this guy did this exact same thing to me, twice

here  and here

So it is not suprising that he did the same thing to you.

 

 

My Blog: http://www.anarchico.net/

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I moved to NH for the FSP.  Sure, there are other places with more job opportunities, more affluence, and better weather.  Those places don't have high concentrations of people trying to maximize liberty. 

Really the question is about whether you believe having a bunch of minarchists and ancaps in a small geographical area is more effective than having them spread out.  I think it is, so I moved.  If anyone knows of any place else attempting this same strategy (Wyoming comes to mind), let me know. 

As an aside, NH feels like there's less DC influence than other places I've lived (namely, most of the East Coast).

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jwilliams89:

I moved to NH for the FSP.  Sure, there are other places with more job opportunities, more affluence, and better weather.  Those places don't have high concentrations of people trying to maximize liberty. 

Really the question is about whether you believe having a bunch of minarchists and ancaps in a small geographical area is more effective than having them spread out.  I think it is, so I moved.  If anyone knows of any place else attempting this same strategy (Wyoming comes to mind), let me know. 

As an aside, NH feels like there's less DC influence than other places I've lived (namely, most of the East Coast).

I would be very interested to hear from you.  Would you mind creating a thread to share you experience?  Others in NH could share as well.  I'd be interested to hear

  • what exactly it was that got you to move,
  • how you went about doing it,
  • difficulties you came across,
  • how long you've been there,
  • things you've seen/experienced so far,
  • things you've done as far as participation in FSP and related activities,
  • differences you've noticed (good and bad) compared to other areas you've lived
  • your overall feeling of the movement, the area, and you decision

 

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Really the question is about whether you believe having a bunch of minarchists and ancaps in a small geographical area is more effective than having them spread out.  I think it is, so I moved.  If anyone knows of any place else attempting this same strategy (Wyoming comes to mind), let me know. 

Thanks for proving my points. Yes NH feels much freer than elsewhere. I can't see anywhere else gaining any more liberty. NH isn't perfect (example: huge property taxes and number of regulations/mandates vary from town to town) but it's sure better than anywhere else I've been.
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Freedom4Me73986:
Thanks for proving my points.

You really do just hear whatever you want to hear don't you.  And do you even live in New Hampshire?

 

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NH is not the most liberty friendly place I've been.  For example, even China is more free with regards to food preparation and serving.  However, I've never been anywhere with so many ancaps and other people who put liberty as such a high priority. 

 

Maryland and Delaware are much more affluent, but I believe a significant portion of that is due to the debt and inflation spurred industries.  New Hampshire seems to have less quality properties, but ones which are owned outright rather than mortgaged (from my unscientific observations).  On the other hand, those from MD and DE seem to have a more capitalist mindset (acquiring capital, savings, and identifiying market needs).  I'll try to make a thread with a more detailed analysis once I get some time. 

 

If you wish to see how a stateless economy functions, come to porcfest in the summer.  It's like heaven for a rothbardian anarchist. 

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Ian Freeman makes a good case for moving to NH.

Free Keene - Numbers Matter

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Chyd3nius replied on Wed, Jul 20 2011 4:18 AM

There is twice as big population in Nevada than in NH, which means that FSP would have to douple their goal for movers. Maybe it would be easier in the end if so many libertarian hate NH-weather. I'm not sure how much there is leftists in Nevada so I can't say anythinh about that neither. But what is the main reason for keeping FSP to not change their location to Nevada? Because project has been on for 10 years and I'm quite sure that you understand this.

But John James, say an alternative strategy for FSP if it sucks ;)

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Chyd3nius:
But John James, say an alternative strategy for FSP if it sucks ;)

Uh (a) I never said "it sucks".  And (b)...I did "say an alternative strategy" (which you spent the entirety of your post futilely trying to refute): if your goal is to get people to pack up and move their life to another state, pick a state people are more likely to want to move to.

 

There is twice as big population in Nevada than in NH, which means that FSP would have to douple their goal for movers. Maybe it would be easier in the end if so many libertarian hate NH-weather. [i.e. would prefer to move somewhere else]

Hey!  I think you got it.  

 

I'm not sure how much there is leftists in Nevada so I can't say anythinh about that neither.

So, you have no idea how many people would move for the FSP if it were located somewhere other than NH, and you have no idea what the political climate of Nevada is...but you have no problem dismissing my question.  Niccccce.

 

project has been on for 10 years and I'm quite sure that you understand this.

Actually, I wasn't aware the FSP has been trying for a whole decade to get 20,000 to move to New Hampshire.  That's long time.  I wonder why the goal hasn't been reached yet.

 

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Chyd3nius replied on Wed, Jul 20 2011 7:06 AM

Uh (a) I never said "it sucks".  And (b)...I did "say an alternative strategy" (which you spent the entirety of your post futilely trying to refute): if your goal is to get people to pack up and move their life to another state, pick a state people are more likely to want to move to.

I haven't followed your entire discussion so I didn't notice that Nevada actually was your alternative strategy, I just thought it was some brainstorming.

So, you have no idea how many people would move for the FSP if it were located somewhere other than NH, and you have no idea what the political climate of Nevada is...but you have no problem dismissing my question.  Niccccce.

After Nevada was brought up I just wrote down some thoughts which were first on my mind. I'm quite open for new ideas, maybe I wrote my post little wrong because I'm not totally against Nevada. I have many times thought that maybe there should be two FSP, East and West, because I have heard so many complains about NH weather. I don't like the idea of keeping only one FSP and saying to participants "OK let's pack, we're going to Nevada now", because as I said it has been on going for 10 years and I think it might be easier to star new Western-FSP than trying to convince the old, "Eastern"-FSP to move.

So, why not both?

EDIT: http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=927.0 As I thought, Nevada was eliminated because of too big population, if someone wanted to know about it.

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Chyd3nius:
So, why not both?

You tell me.  I'm not the guy who started a thread asking why don't people move to NH.

 

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There is twice as big population in Nevada than in NH, which means that FSP would have to douple their goal for movers. 

If it had been up to me, I would have raised the goal to 50,000 libertarian-minded people to NH. I'm not going to criticize the project but my only critique is that the 20,000 number, even for a state as small as NH, seems a bit low. Though the 900 liberty activists here already are making a huge impact on state politics. The in-the-system activists have captured the state house and are on their way towards carrying out pro-liberty policies.

Maybe it would be easier in the end if so many libertarian hate NH-weather

I've lived in NH-style weather before. The heatwave is going to start hitting us tomorrow. Snow isn't bad if you know how to deal with it as most people in NH do, or eventually learn.

 I'm not sure how much there is leftists in Nevada so I can't say anythinh about that neither. But what is the main reason for keeping FSP to not change their location to Nevada? Because project has been on for 10 years and I'm quite sure that you understand this.

Nevada would have nothing on NH. Nevada's unemployment rate is way higher than NH's so it would be harder finding a job. NH also has a history of being a haven for liberty-lovers.

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Actually, I wasn't aware the FSP has been trying for a whole decade to get 20,000 to move to New Hampshire.  That's long time.  I wonder why the goal hasn't been reached yet.

The FSP didn't get any publicity until Russia Today reported on it two years ago. In that two years FSP participation grew very high.
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One more thing.

List of pro-liberty bills passed in NH

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Chyd3nius replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 7:34 AM

I've lived in NH-style weather before. The heatwave is going to start hitting us tomorrow. Snow isn't bad if you know how to deal with it as most people in NH do, or eventually learn.

My point was that some libertarians love sun more than small add-ons to their freedom and fighting for liberty in snow, and it's a fact which cannot be changed. I would move to NH if I'd live in US, but there is many heat-lovers who wont.

Only thing which is compared between states is not only which one is more libertarian. There is other things too, and I think the case is pretty closed for Nevada...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada#Demographics

"According to the 2006 census estimate, Nevada is the eighth fastest growing state in the nation"

New Hampshire is #45, and is 6th lowest. It also has half of Nevadas population, so I think that heat-lovers must find some other state. OR they must be able to defeat Nevadas growth.

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John James replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 10:45 AM

Freedom4Me73986:
If it had been up to me, I would have raised the goal to 50,000 libertarian-minded people to NH. I'm not going to criticize the project but my only critique is that the 20,000 number, even for a state as small as NH, seems a bit low.

Because they sure blew that 20,000 goal right out of the water didn't they.

 

I've lived in NH-style weather before. The heatwave is going to start hitting us tomorrow.

Oh heavens no!  A heatwave with average temperatures of 80 degrees Farenheit.  That's hell if I've ever heard of it.

 

Snow isn't bad if you know how to deal with it as most people in NH do, or eventually learn.

Living blind isn't bad if you know how to deal with it as most blind people do, or eventually learn, too.  Doesn't mean people prefer it.

 

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I've lived in NH-style weather before. The heatwave is going to start hitting us tomorrow. Snow isn't bad if you know how to deal with it as most people in NH do, or eventually learn.

My point was that some libertarians love sun more than small add-ons to their freedom and fighting for liberty in snow, and it's a fact which cannot be changed. I would move to NH if I'd live in US, but there is many heat-lovers who wont.

Only thing which is compared between states is not only which one is more libertarian. There is other things too, and I think the case is pretty closed for Nevada...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada#Demographics

"According to the 2006 census estimate, Nevada is the eighth fastest growing state in the nation"

New Hampshire is #45, and is 6th lowest. It also has half of Nevadas population, so I think that heat-lovers must find some other state. OR they must be able to defeat Nevadas growth.

The other problem with Nevada is the number of statists from California and New York who retire there. It's like Florida in that way. Now that the baby boomers are retiring you can be sure that Nevada's population will start increasing way faster than NH's (unless of course more people are attracted to liberty and the FSP and join us) and that will make it hard for any kind of "fringe" political migrants to have a noticeable effect. One of the reasons why the 900 liberty activists in NH have done so well so far is because most NH towns have such a small population that it's easy to get involved in town and state decision-making. Some of the liberty activists who were elected into the state house last year did so with only a few hundred votes.

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John James replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 12:38 PM

Do you have any data showing this number of "statists from California and New York" who retire to Nevada?  I'm curious why someone who has lived their adult years in arguably the best climate in the country would retire to a desert.  Generally when people are no longer tied down by a job and young children they move to a more preferred climate, not a lessor one. 

And as for New York, I know people who eventually move out of the city and go upstate or go south to the Carolinas or Florida, but they stay on the east coast for the most part.  I've never in my life heard of a New Yorker retiring to Nevada.

 

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Because they sure blew that 20,000 goal right out of the water didn't they.

Because movements don't grow overnight. So far the FSP has 11,000 people signed up (over half their stated goal) and 900 have moved and the ones who have moved have succeeded in taking steps towards a voluntary society within NH.

Living blind isn't bad if you know how to deal with it as most blind people do, or eventually learn, too.  Doesn't mean people prefer it.

I would sacrifice a few comforts for a little more liberty any day. How is the weather in NH worse than the weather in most other states? Minnesota gets blizzards. Illinois gets extreme patterns of hot hot summers/freezing winters. Even Tennessee has its fair share of bad weather.

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John James replied on Thu, Jul 21 2011 12:49 PM

I didn't realize anyone was trying to get people to move to Minnesota or Illinois.

 

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I didn't realize anyone was trying to get people to move to Minnesota or Illinois.

No, but millions of people had a reason to move to Chicago and Minneapolis.

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Weren't the populations of Chicago and Minneapolis the product of forced migration of immigrants to the US?

During the greatest period of growth in these areas, the US was practicing a form of racial discrimination against non-anglo-saxon protestants.  Irish, Germans, Scandinavians, and Eastern Europeans were permitted into the country but were settled in the midwest.  This really wasn't a free movement initiative.  In their home countries, things were really bad.  When they arrived, they were often the target of heavy-handed tactics by the existing American population.  They were not welcomed in the east or south.  Their only real options were the midwest or far west, if they dared go that far.  Many of these immigrants weren't the rag-tag, poor and unskilled people American historians like to refer to.  These were skilled, middle-class people who had been displaced by the industrial revolution.  The midwest, with it's growing industrial base, thanks in large part to some of these individuals, was the perfect place for them to settle.

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Weren't the populations of Chicago and Minneapolis the product of forced migration of immigrants to the US?

During the greatest period of growth in these areas, the US was practicing a form of racial discrimination against non-anglo-saxon protestants.  Irish, Germans, Scandinavians, and Eastern Europeans were permitted into the country but were settled in the midwest.  This really wasn't a free movement initiative.  In their home countries, things were really bad.  When they arrived, they were often the target of heavy-handed tactics by the existing American population.  They were not welcomed in the east or south.  Their only real options were the midwest or far west, if they dared go that far.  Many of these immigrants weren't the rag-tag, poor and unskilled people American historians like to refer to.  These were skilled, middle-class people who had been displaced by the industrial revolution.  The midwest, with it's growing industrial base, thanks in large part to some of these individuals, was the perfect place for them to settle.

That could be true, but the point is that once your needs are met you don't really care that much about the weather. I feel much freer in NH than I did in the other states I lived.

I can tell you that NH's weather is really not that much different from other parts of America. That's why I brought up the midwest cities. But even places in the south experience somewhat heavy snowfall in the winter. Tennessee and Virginia, for example. And you stay inside for most of the time during the winter months in NH anyway.

My point is: I wouldn't let the fear of bad weather lead you to diss NH. It's a great place to live overall.

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Freedom4Me73986:
My point is: I wouldn't let the fear of bad weather lead you to diss NH. It's a great place to live overall.

And all 3 weeks of your time living there (in the warmest season no less) can attest to that huh?

 

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Freedom4Me73986:
My point is: I wouldn't let the fear of bad weather lead you to diss NH. It's a great place to live overall.

And all 3 weeks of your time living there (in the warmest season no less) can attest to that huh?

Have you ever been to NH?

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Bohemian replied on Sat, Jul 23 2011 8:41 PM

Career options. Once I'm finally a physician I will most certainly move to NH. I would love to attend Dartmouth, but without accepting a crushing debt burden, I just can't afford it. Texas has the greatest concentration of medical schools of which I wish to attend, as well as the best scientific job market for someone with only a bachelors degree. At this stage in my life, the general cost of living is also much more amenable in Texas. However, once my career is established--I am either bound for NH, Switzerland, or perhaps Chile.

Btw, Nevada is not a good option. Anything south of Washoe County is firmly Statist. Within northern Nevada we are still a relatively free people with a greater penchant for anti-state mentality than most of the US, but this isn't claiming much. Mediocracy in all things is malignant and rife. Nevada struggles deeply with "brain drain". Other than mining and small farms/ranches, the only economy is built around warehousing and gambling. Gambling is severely being undermined by Native American casinos, which leaves little left.

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However, once my career is established--I am either bound for NH, Switzerland, or perhaps Chile.

Come to NH. I don't know of any libertarians or anarcho-capitalists in Switzerland or Chile (or outside of Ameirca for that matter).

Btw, Nevada is not a good option. Anything sound of Washoe is firmly Statist. Within northern Nevada we are still a relatively free people with a greater penchant for anti-state mentality than most of the US, but this isn't claiming much. Mediocracy in all things is malignant and rife. Nevada struggles deeply with "brain drain". Other than mining and small farms/ranches, the only economy is built around warehousing and gambling. Gambling is severely being undermined by Native American casinos, which leaves little left.

I knew I wasn't the only one who wasn't too hot on Nevada. And brain drain isn't an issue in NH. Because the standard of living here is way higher than most other places in America (which is a proven fact. Look at statistics) people can afford to send their kids to private schools in Boston and Connecticut to get educated.

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John James replied on Sun, Jul 24 2011 11:47 AM

Freedom4Me73986:

John James:
And all 3 weeks of your time living there (in the warmest season no less) can attest to that huh?

Have you ever been to NH?

Do you always answer a question with a question?

 

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Freedom4Me73986:

John James:
And all 3 weeks of your time living there (in the warmest season no less) can attest to that huh?

Have you ever been to NH?

Do you always answer a question with a question?

Only when I ask and don't receive a response.

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John James replied on Sun, Jul 24 2011 10:35 PM

Read what you just wrote again.

 

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OK to answer your original question, yes. I might be a bit naive saying "weather is no big deal in NH" when I've only lived here during the summer.

To answer your other question: I answer with questions because I'm skeptical of the ones I'm asked.

Maybe you could answer mine: have you ever been to NH?

Yes, the weather in NH isn't as good as it is in Florida. Yes there are some socialists and statists (Ridley's latest video shows socialists protesting against removing taxpayer funds from Planned Parenthood.) Yes NH may not be the easiest place to move to. But there are huge perks to living in NH as opposed to Nevada, Florida, Texas, Virginia and everywhere else which I would advise everyone to research.

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Mike replied on Mon, Aug 1 2011 8:29 PM

Freedom4me

 

Please expound on your comment, "But there are huge perks to living in NH as opposed to Nevada, Florida, Texas, Virginia and everywhere else which I would advise everyone to research."

BTW - I have visited NH many times in all season's. It is a beutiful state and you are right, teh weather is similar to most states north of the mason dixon line. but once you have gotten used to a warm weather location (i'm in Florida) the idea of long cold winters is virtually impossible. I wouldn't mind being a snow bird when I retire.

Be responsible, ease suffering; spay or neuter your pets.

We must get them to understand that government solutions are the problem!

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NH perks:

- No sales tax

- No income tax

- Raw milk is legal

- Strong property rights

- Strong liberty-oriented atmosphere

- No large urban areas, so all the problems that come along with large urban areas (rampant crime, urban decay, overpopulation, no privacy) are non-existent in NH

- Large libertarian community

- Little homeschooling regulations

- Few cops

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but once you have gotten used to a warm weather location (i'm in Florida) the idea of long cold winters is virtually impossible.

I transitioned from warm states to cold states more than once in my life. It's not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. A lot of free staters come from California, Texas and Florida.

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Interviews like this should change your mind if you think NH is as oppressive as every other state.

 

 

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Joe replied on Sat, Aug 6 2011 11:04 PM

I don't understand how no large urban areas is a positive.  Thats why I left NH, Manchester was too small.  Also, is raw milk being legal that big of a seller?

 

Taxes are only marginally lower in NH, no income or sales tax is nice, but they 'make up' for it in other areas. 

 

Where are you getting this 'strong property rights' assertion from?  There are high property taxes, that is pretty antithetical to strong property rights.

 

The homeschooling regulations aren't really that good, they just used to be amongst the worst in the country, and are now closer to the middle of the pack.

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I don't understand how no large urban areas is a positive.  Thats why I left NH, Manchester was too small.  Also, is raw milk being legal that big of a seller?

Raw milk has great health benefits (unlike pasteurized milk which carries cancer-causing agents) and the ban on it in other states has way more to do with monopolization than health. Also, raw milk in the market would make the price of all milk go down.

Having no urban areas is great. I'm on the assumption that cities by their nature are collectivist and dumb people down. Folks in the cities are way to dependent on others to take care of them and never learn true self reliance and survival techniques. They are so used to being babied by the state that they forget how to live. Cities also breed crime and poverty. Every city I've lived in and been to is exactly the same in that respect. Manchester, NH is a lot different. It's only 100,000 people. People complain that it tries to be Boston since a lot of people from Boston have moved there but it's really not. You can live in Manchester and drive for 20 minutes in any direction (except south) and you'll be out of civilization.

 

Taxes are only marginally lower in NH, no income or sales tax is nice, but they 'make up' for it in other areas. 

Read the Reasons to Move again. Or look at the recent Freedom in the 50 States.  The tax burden is much better in NH than anywhere else. 
 

Where are you getting this 'strong property rights' assertion from?  There are high property taxes, that is pretty antithetical to strong property rights.

Again, read the lit on it. Eminent domain doesn't happen in NH the way it happens in Connecticut or Pennsylvania.
 
The homeschooling regulations aren't really that good, they just used to be amongst the worst in the country, and are now closer to the middle of the pack.
 
Homeschooling will be unregulated once enough free staters demand it. They pack the state house with their guns every time another statist bill comes into play. They already did a few years ago. 

 

 

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I am unsure about the claims that raw milk is more healthy (though it is delicious and I drink it), but the point is mainly an ideological thing. If you can ban a product which people want just because you think it's bad, you open the door to maaaany regulations for the same reason.

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I am unsure about the claims that raw milk is more healthy (though it is delicious and I drink it), but the point is mainly an ideological thing. If you can ban a product which people want just because you think it's bad, you open the door to maaaany regulations for the same reason.

Raw milk is healthier. Check your facts. Read things like The China Study to see why pasteurization equals cancer.

And the amount of regulations is far less in NH than anywhere else. Check the Freedom in the 50 States rankings again. There's a reason why NH is number 1.

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