Freedom4Me73986:Because I like discussing the economy. You are not here discussing the economy. The only thing you have done here since the day you joined is post FSP propaganda and antagonize people about how great New Hampshire is and keep pestering everyone to move there. If the only reason you remain in "civ" is because you need it to survive, then go learn these "skills" and leave. Littering the forum with single post threads of crappy propaganda interviews, and useless median income data, and "100 reasons to live in New Hampshire" lists is not going to help you survive without "civ". Quite frankly, I don't give a crap that New Hampshire is called "the live free or die state". But apparently some blowhard thinks that's a viable reason to pack up someone's life and move there. You are not hear discussing the economy, you are here spreading propaganda and nonsense. What does this have to do with getting you to leave?
Freedom4Me73986:Because I like discussing the economy.
You are not here discussing the economy. The only thing you have done here since the day you joined is post FSP propaganda and antagonize people about how great New Hampshire is and keep pestering everyone to move there. If the only reason you remain in "civ" is because you need it to survive, then go learn these "skills" and leave. Littering the forum with single post threads of crappy propaganda interviews, and useless median income data, and "100 reasons to live in New Hampshire" lists is not going to help you survive without "civ".
Quite frankly, I don't give a crap that New Hampshire is called "the live free or die state". But apparently some blowhard thinks that's a viable reason to pack up someone's life and move there.
You are not hear discussing the economy, you are here spreading propaganda and nonsense. What does this have to do with getting you to leave?
Even if agriculture is not 'sustainable' as you claim, it's been around for 10,000 years and you have perhaps 80 years to your life (though likely far less if you live as a hunter-gatherer) - what makes you think that this supposedly inevitable collapse will ever effect you, even if you remain in civilization?
what makes you think that this supposedly inevitable collapse will ever effect you, even if you remain in civilization?
The evidence is out there. Google 'civilization collapse' and you'll find all the info you need. Also check out works by anarcho-primitivists. Yes theyre a bunch of treehuggers but they are right about a lot.
Autolykos:Agrarian societies emerged/developed from hunter-gatherer societies, didn't they? For some odd reason, many/most historians consider written language to be the distinctive feature of "civilization". But I see no reason why division of labor and the payment of wages for work depend on written language.
I don't see why written language should be the distinction between what constitutes "civilization", but that's just me. It's also not really relevant since I wasn't making an argument within that context and nor do I think that the anti-civ, primitivists in this thread want to abolish written language (or see its abolition as an inevitable consequense of a non-coercive economy) if that is the metric we are using to distinguish a civilization from a non-civilization.
It seems to me that the anti-civs are targeting the establishment of a capital goods market and division of labor economy. I would say these two things are essential to any capitalist economy.
Freedom4Me73986:K let me explain:NH is the most libertarian state by far. Thats where I want to live freely. Out in the woods in NH where the gov. won't stop me.
Great. What the hell does that have to do with you spending all this time on the Mises forum spreading FSP propaganda? Do you even read what you write? You haven't explained anything. The only thing you've added is why you want to live in the woods in New Hampshire as opposed to the woods in Montana, or Canada, or the Amazon (evidently because you think in those places, "the gov." would stop you, but in the tiny boundaries of New Hampshire, the wouldn't.)
What does this have to do with you being here? Why are you here?
http://ourworld.unu.edu/en/agriculture-and-food-systems-unsustainable/
Aristippus:Even if agriculture is not 'sustainable' as you claim, it's been around for 10,000 years and you have perhaps 80 years to your life (though likely far less if you live as a hunter-gatherer) - what makes you think that this supposedly inevitable collapse will ever effect you, even if you remain in civilization?
Guess he sure told you. He knows it'll happen in his tiny spec of a lifespan because he found something on Google. What is your proof he's wrong???
Check the data. Ag is not sustainable and can never be.
Why are you here?
I guess he's right since civilization will end eventually, even if not for 1 million years. Nevertheless I think I'll spend my first few thousand years in civilization and then see how I feel.
Support this claim by praxeology or it's completely meaningless.
Civilization outruns this guy's life span. Civ wins!
Still don't know he's here posting about it. You have people that just go leave their homes, teenagers and people in their early 20's train hopping (which, by the way, I have to say is more dangerous than living alone in the woods), and people hiking trails all the time. You know why? They do it and don't just talk about it. Take this guy for example, he just left one day, got to Alaska, lasted four months through the whole thing before dying, and had a book and movie made about it.
So, why are you here? You post survivalist videos, but just like Dale Gribble thinking he's a Soldier of Fortune you'll never do this stuff, just talk it up, and never do it. Think of us as the Hank Hills, calling you out on your nonsense and half-baked theories about civilization. I haven't seen anything of worth posted from you, just amusement with your posts about living in the woods away from civilization, but it'll never happen.
Have you ever thought what if society does collapse, and everyone goes to the woods, to, you know, build log cabins and hunt and live away from the mess. What's going to happen when people stronger and more intelligent than you home stead that land, hunt the food, build the homes, cut down the trees, and oh, wait, rebuild civilization? Well, keep pushing into those woods!
To be honest, if I was some sort of idiot, or someone rather intelligent with a good knowledge of the outdoors (not "survivalist methods" like it's Rambo), I'd go into the mountains, perhaps Shenandoah that I occasionally camp at, and live out there amongst the beautiful Blue Ridge Mtns. And you know what I've learned from visitor centers and tourist guides and the like? That when people went out west, away from civilization, what did they do on those trails? They built communities. That's right, and when you go out in those places they have cabins and other remnants there to give you an idea of how they lived, and they had fenced off sections of agriculture and live stock, with structures for various purposes, etc. etc. Seems like everytime someone goes into the wilderness they spontaneously build civilization, as if that's the embedded human thing to do. What a wonder the world is!
Got rid of the spam.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
Maybe I won't live to see the collapse of civ but it's a fact that civilization WILL collapse sometime in the future. All civilizations collapse at some point. All we're doing is prolonging the life of ours which is leading to enslavement.
No one will want to go back to civ. It's like saying people will bring back the state after the state is no more. Why go back to slavery once you have freedom?
Watch this if your still skeptical.
We need to stop hunting down wolves?
What the primitivist perspective recognizes is that a species, given control of its own food supply, is able to exponentially increase their population which is what destroyed the anarchotribal system that had pervaded the globe for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years prior to the technological discovery of totalitarian agriculture in mesopotamia circa 10,000 years ago.
With the added calories available the totalitarian agriculturalist is able to rapidly expand his population. It is easy to homestead land that is used for hunting and browsing because they may not revisit the plot for months or years. Plus those two different tribes may not have a negotiated property rights settlement, and a language barrier might preclude the discovery of such. This situation is likely to end in warfare or expulsion of the nomadic tribe, because of the improvement of the land by the totalitarian agricultural homesteader.
Over the long term this leads to exponential population explosion and thus division of labor, which gives rise to more technology. Technology has unintended consequences that humans need time to account for. Unfortunately, humans were designed to live in tribal societies that tend towards a type of communal living, involving reciprocal exchange. Market exchange and market processes are counterintuitive to the naive human. This is why statism is so popular despite the glaringly obvious immorality and ill effects. (see mises.org daily "evolutionary psychology and the anti-market bias)
The answer is property rights. With sufficient private property rights, tribes (such as the kayapo in brazil) would not lose their land (homesteaded for potentially thousands of years prior to the colonial invasion) because of statist aggression (bel monte dam project). Without food subsidies, the market system will recreate scarcity and therefore halt the population explosion and give us time to work the bugs out of new technology. And without aggression where new tech is forced on people without their consent, we also wouldnt be unwillingly subjected to the effects of vaccines, fiat money, modern "nutrition", and modern modes of transportation.
As for your specific question regarding wolves, the situation is politicized to such an extent that I do not know the true facts. I heard that the wolves in the northwest and canada are not endangered but a aggressive nuisance that had been introduced by the state to make up for alleged past wrongs, but I cant seem to find the article.
Also, the video implies (and the daniel quinn allegiant community claims) that no other animals wage war on their competitors. Raptors and owls are mortal enemies and raptors will attack owls during the daylight if they encounter one. They do not eat the carcass.
Was that a joke or are you being serious? Y'know antibiotics have expanded the average human life-span a tremendous amount in the last century. Claiming "we will lose this war" without demonstrating any drop in the modern lifespan a higher prevelance of diseases caused by bacteria is hysterical. Again, if you're going to make any sort of valid claim that agriculture and industry are unsustainable show it by praxeology.
>>>>antibiotics have expanded the average human life-span a tremendous amount in the last century.>>>>
support this claim please. Show that the increase in life-span is not due to conservation of energy by use of superior technology. Show that the increase in life-span is the product of the use of antibiotics themselves, rather than increased and widespread knowledge of medical science in general.
>>>>Again, if you're going to make any sort of valid claim that agriculture and industry are unsustainable show it by praxeology.>>>>
if you consolidate all of the life processes in the world into those that sustain humans and those that predate upon human sustaining processes, and continually refine those into the most large-scale, efficient processes, you run the risk of one anti-biotics mutated superbug destroying your food supply apparatus in a fortnight. This would not be a problem if property rights were well-established because that would naturally produce diverse sources of food at all scales.
>>>>I would also like to see my point addressed that there were tribal States in the old, primitive days...The State did not merely arbitrarily appear with the dawning of "modern civilization.">>>>
Tribal government is not a state. Tribal government is more like a family. The anarchotribal system typically did not have the populaton necessary for division of labor and hence the ability to support an aggressive state apparatus.
I would make the argument that hunter-gatherers were anarcho-capitalist in many ways. They freely bartered w/o taxes or regulations or aggression.
From what I've learned in art history class (where the teacher is generally an ancient history buff) there was inter-tribal warfare. I will look up evidence of this later (sorry).
>>>>there was inter-tribal warfare -Wheylous>>>>
of course there was. However, there was general anarchy. Tribal societies do not have the surplus labor to go on religious crusades. They had border skirmish type wars that defined the margins of property rights and served as rites of passage.
>>>>I would make the argument that hunter-gatherers were anarcho-capitalist in many ways. They freely bartered w/o taxes or regulations or aggression. -Freedom4Me>>>>
capitalist implies an economy that has means of production, not just trade/barter. Evidence suggests the boundaries between private and common property were established by mutual consent in extended family units.
Wheylous:Charles, you haven't responded to my post.
Wheylous:Capitalism is a progressive....
I'll say it again: H/Gs were IMO the closest thing possible to true anarcho-capitalism. No states. No taxes. No regulations. Just free trading. Sure there were NAP violations but the NAP was a long way from being established. That's the reason why a H/G survivalist lifestyle is so appealing to me. That and the increasing tyranny (read infowars.)
[quotte]I'll say it again: H/Gs were IMO the closest thing possible to true anarcho-capitalism. No states. No taxes. No regulations. Just free trading. Sure there were NAP violations but the NAP was a long way from being established. That's the reason why a H/G survivalist lifestyle is so appealing to me. That and the increasing tyranny (read infowars.)[/quotte]
Yeah, but H/G's have so small amount of physical capital that your life is dominated by searching for the food. I like computers, electrics etc. so much that I'm ready to pay taxes for them.
There's evidence that excess computer usage causes cancer. In fact a lot ofthings in civ cause cancer. So I wouldnt be too sad about giving it all up to go back to basic survival. No chemicals in food or water would be a plus. I don't know of a single hunter-gatherer society where cancer and autism are rampant unlike here.
>>>>I'll say it again: H/Gs were IMO the closest thing possible to true anarcho-capitalism. No states. No taxes. No regulations. Just free trading. Sure there were NAP violations but the NAP was a long way from being established. That's the reason why a H/G survivalist lifestyle is so appealing to me. That and the increasing tyranny (read infowars.)>>>>
More accurate terms are anarchotribal and anarchoprimitive. Capitalism tends to denote n-order goods and widespread division of labor.
Charles:
Here
Wheylous: Charles Anthony:I believe the state leads us to live with a dependence upon technology that would not otherwise be affordable without the state I don't think the problem may be this large, but I am currently thinking that government may have at least initially created an over-investment in railroad infrastructure which has been the mother of the entitlement mentality - a company begins to do something useful, the government subsidizes it so that "everyone can have it," and now everyone expects it as a birthright. I am not sure that this bubble in transportation exists anymore, though.
Charles Anthony:I believe the state leads us to live with a dependence upon technology that would not otherwise be affordable without the state
I don't think the problem may be this large, but I am currently thinking that government may have at least initially created an over-investment in railroad infrastructure which has been the mother of the entitlement mentality - a company begins to do something useful, the government subsidizes it so that "everyone can have it," and now everyone expects it as a birthright. I am not sure that this bubble in transportation exists anymore, though.
The bubble in transportation constantly exists as long as the fuel and energy supply that we ALL use is susidized as it stands Your price for fuel would be much higher if not for the foreign ocupancy and influence in the middle east. There is a lot of literaure pointing out this hidden subsidy. Lookup Petro Dollar + Ron Paul in your favorite internetttt search engine.
Wheylous: Charles Anthony:Everybody -- anarchist or otherwise -- can see quite clearly that the state subsidizes the transportation industry and it does so with preferential treatement -- i.e., some sectors get sbsidies while other sectors are crowded out. That would be gone without the state as it should. As would old-age pension, police force, army, consumer protection, education, firefighters, and all other things the government provides. Right? Wrong. Simply because the government is currently providing them, it doesn't mean that the free market won't be. I personally find roads quite nice, so I would surely support them even without government.
Charles Anthony:Everybody -- anarchist or otherwise -- can see quite clearly that the state subsidizes the transportation industry and it does so with preferential treatement -- i.e., some sectors get sbsidies while other sectors are crowded out. That would be gone without the state as it should.
Wheylous: Charles Anthony:Certainly all of the cheap junk I get from Asia would be gone You mean that you would actually have more of it because there would be no tariffs and you would keep more of your income?
Charles Anthony:Certainly all of the cheap junk I get from Asia would be gone
The cost of oil rises in anarchy, the cost of transporting junk across the oceans rises, the price of my asian junk rises and the volume I consume drops. Next lesson: supply curves go up and demand curves go down.
Wheylous: Charles Anthony: We can at least agree that space exploration would disappear, right? Wrong and wrong
Charles Anthony: We can at least agree that space exploration would disappear, right?
Wheylous: Charles Anthony:the people in the affluent West -- are beneficiaries of slave labor from the third world Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the impression that food and cotton prices didn't skyrocket when slavery in the US was abolished. Right? Or is that because we now rely on foreign slaves?
Charles Anthony:the people in the affluent West -- are beneficiaries of slave labor from the third world
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the impression that food and cotton prices didn't skyrocket when slavery in the US was abolished. Right? Or is that because we now rely on foreign slaves?
Wheylous: Charles Anthony:Whithout the state, the vast majority of computer purchases in my city would disappear -- as they should.Imagine what you could do without all of that wasted city money.
Charles Anthony:Whithout the state, the vast majority of computer purchases in my city would disappear -- as they should.
Wheylous: Charles Anthony: prices of oil would be higherDon't forget about the 23% embedded tax in goods these days (the hidden payroll, income, and corporate taxes). And that excludes expensive regulation. Furthermore, with all of this antitrust regulation, we operate well below efficient levels.
Charles Anthony: prices of oil would be higher
Wheylous: Charles Anthony:Cheap oil is used in virtually all of the global economy at the very least, it is used to transport stuff to and from third world countries. Hence, the price of commerce will go up. Everything will go up. Perfect time for new energy sources.
Charles Anthony:Cheap oil is used in virtually all of the global economy at the very least, it is used to transport stuff to and from third world countries. Hence, the price of commerce will go up. Everything will go up.
Wheylous: Plus, I think that we currently have embargoes against oil exporting nations, right?
I will ask you again:
You and I might disagree on what constitutes progress.
In my mind, progress has nothing to do with accumulating junk, money or commercial transactions. Those are secondary causal benefits to the advancement of liberty.
According to me, progress is when the initiation of aggression is stopped and liberty is advanced. How those actions translate into material wealth is debatable and irrelevent to my definition of progress.
You look at roads or other infrastructure and you like them. I like them too. I have no doubt they could arise wthout the state. However, I also look at them differently. I look at these infrastructure AS DESIGNED BY THE STATE as a tragedy of the commons.
Our modern urban planning is crazy. Every road is also a free-pass getaway for criminals to get away with crimes. That to me is one negative when it comes to judging the value of a material good.
I have a challenge for you. Put yourself in the shoes of a parasitic government employee who gets paid to do nothing and ask yourself: What would happen to your material wealth after the state is abolished? would your life get easier or harder? would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
Now, put yourself in the shoes of a person who sells exclusively to the government and ask yourself the same questions.
And still people live much much much longer than they did before agriculture, civilization, electronics etc. horrible things. When we didn't have chemicals in our food people were living under constant starvation. If all people would get back to the woods, the end result would be a huge massacre. There just isn't enough food for 7 billion people if we leave all our capital behind.
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