Well, there is a reason I said "pretty much." That is because I disagree with your interpretation. His want of survival skills is the only reason he has not left; but he still can engage in other activities before he learns these skills, and such engagements are not, per se, reasons for staying. They could simply be a means to pass time before his "wilderness mentor" is ready for his tutleage, and hence are not pertaining to the issue whatever. He is not merely hiding untold reasons for staying, in posting on these forums; for when he learns the necessary survival skills and is decked with proper accoutrements, he shall promptly leave if his word be true.
This forum =/= survivalist forum. He may still be in "civ" before he's prepared (sounds pretty weak to me), but if he's preparing to live without "civ" he should actually be doing that instead of spending time on the internet, y'know, get use to living without "civ". Doesn't sound like he's trying hard.
Which brings me to the question, what have you done to prepare? Have you taught yourself how to gather food, build shelter, and so forth? What survivalist skills are you currently working on?
Is ANYONE going to discuss the video I posted of the arrests in NH?
No, because they don't matter! Occupy Wall Street was started by Soros to begin with but at least they have the gumption to mount a real protest in a real city. This is just a bunch of bored guys who haven't gotten laid in way too long picking a fight with the local cops and spending the night in jail. It's just like the guy I mentioned protesting parking tickets. What a waste of energy. Get a job and do something productive that benefits the rest of us. Instead, all I see these guys doing is increasing demand for police and court services, burdening the taxpayers further.
Clayton -
Is ANYONE going to discuss the video I posted of the arrests in NH? No, because they don't matter! Occupy Wall Street was started by Soros to begin with but at least they have the gumption to mount a real protest in a real city. This is just a bunch of bored guys who haven't gotten laid in way too long picking a fight with the local cops and spending the night in jail. It's just like the guy I mentioned protesting parking tickets. What a waste of energy. Get a job and do something productive that benefits the rest of us. Instead, all I see these guys doing is increasing demand for police and court services, burdening the taxpayers further. Clayton -
i don't support the occupy protests but I do support liberty activists who were the people arrested in this case.
Whole Free Keene and "activism" in NH is waste of time and makes libertarians to looke like an idiots.
Freedom4Me73986: Is ANYONE going to discuss the video I posted of the arrests in NH? No, because they don't matter! Occupy Wall Street was started by Soros to begin with but at least they have the gumption to mount a real protest in a real city. This is just a bunch of bored guys who haven't gotten laid in way too long picking a fight with the local cops and spending the night in jail. It's just like the guy I mentioned protesting parking tickets. What a waste of energy. Get a job and do something productive that benefits the rest of us. Instead, all I see these guys doing is increasing demand for police and court services, burdening the taxpayers further. Clayton - i don't support the occupy protests but I do support liberty activists who were the people arrested in this case.
direct action gets satisfaction. the state has violated the nap. they should start from that.
The Anarch is to the Anarchist what the Monarch is to the Monarchist. -Ernst Jünger
The whole point of Free Keene is to draw attention to the useless laws and drug war. If enough of them get arrested the town of Keene will lose money and will consider taking the laws off the books. Also, the more Keeniacs in jail means less time the police in Keene will worry about people breaking other petty laws. It's a complex strategy known to work.
So what are you doing to advance liberty?
Freedom4Me73986: The whole point of Free Keene is to draw attention to the useless laws and drug war. If enough of them get arrested the town of Keene will lose money and will consider taking the laws off the books. .
The whole point of Free Keene is to draw attention to the useless laws and drug war. If enough of them get arrested the town of Keene will lose money and will consider taking the laws off the books. .
How is 'more people in jail' a direct correlation or a causation to a 'reduction of local govrnment revenue' ?
My Blog: http://www.anarchico.net/
Production is 'anarchistic' - Ludwig von Mises
Freedom4Me73986: The whole point of Free Keene is to draw attention to the useless laws and drug war. If enough of them get arrested the town of Keene will lose money and will consider taking the laws off the books. . How is 'more people in jail' a direct correlation or a causation to a 'reduction of local govrnment revenue' ?
More people in jail equals more money the town has to spend. This means they'll either have to increase taxes or take the laws off the books in order to get that money back. Since most people in Keene are already fed up w/ high property tax (Keene has some of the highest in the state) they'll demand that the laws be done away with. It's all about public opinion. Seeing someone get arrested for having a beer on state property makes the town question the laws.
But if you look at the books of most towns in NH, most have increased their budget each year.
Lie. Free staters managed to cut NH's budget by 12% last year.
really?(and I am talking about local government budgets not state)
http://www.city.laconia.nh.us/uploads/administration_dept/docs/Budget/BUDGET%20FY2012.pdf
public service salaries up, budget up, revenues by taxes up, revenue by non-taxes up, public service costs up...
more examples:
http://www.cityofportsmouth.com/finance/fy11adoptedbudget.pdf
http://www.graftoncountynh.us/Budgets/FY2010%20Budget%20Complete.pdf
@F4M: You need to read up on public choice theory. When the costs are spread over all citizens (taxes, cost of paying police to clear people drinking publicly out of the park) while the benefits accrue to a small minority (those prohibitionists who feel strongly about drinking in public), and you have a well-oiled redistributionary apparatus (local, state, federal gov't, etc.) the minority will be able to - and, therefore, will - impose the costs of implementing its programs onto the general public.
The reason is simple... it costs me, what, an additional penny in taxes? I'm going to waste even one minute of my day to eliminate that penny? Of course not. But if you hate drinking with a passion and hate to see people drinking in the public square almost enough to use your own money to prevent it, you'll gladly devote your energy lobbying and promoting until a law is passed that costs people an extra penny or two in order to keep public drinking prohibited. Hence, the incentive to lobby for laws prohibiting public drinking vastly exceed the incentive to lobby against the costs of such laws.
This is true of each initiative taken in isolation but the inevitable consequence is an explosion in the tax burden and the nanny state. Your protests hinge on the idea of taking that one or two pennies and turning it into three or four pennies. The public is still going to say "so what?" and I say not only are you wasting your time but you are in fact doing a disservice to your fellow man. We'd be better off if you were at least delivering pizzas or something.
@F4M: You need to read up on public choice theory. When the costs are spread over all citizens (taxes, cost of paying police to clear people drinking publicly out of the park) while the benefits accrue to a small minority (those prohibitionists who feel strongly about drinking in public), and you have a well-oiled redistributionary apparatus (local, state, federal gov't, etc.) the minority will be able to - and, therefore, will - impose the costs of implementing its programs onto the general public. The reason is simple... it costs me, what, an additional penny in taxes? I'm going to waste even one minute of my day to eliminate that penny? Of course not. But if you hate drinking with a passion and hate to see people drinking in the public square almost enough to use your own money to prevent it, you'll gladly devote your energy lobbying and promoting until a law is passed that costs people an extra penny or two in order to keep public drinking prohibited. Hence, the incentive to lobby for laws prohibiting public drinking vastly exceed the incentive to lobby against the costs of such laws. This is true of each initiative taken in isolation but the inevitable consequence is an explosion in the tax burden and the nanny state. Your protests hinge on the idea of taking that one or two pennies and turning it into three or four pennies. The public is still going to say "so what?" and I say not only are you wasting your time but you are in fact doing a disservice to your fellow man. We'd be better off if you were at least delivering pizzas or something.
FYI it's not just about taxes and draining the state but about drawing attention to the laws and the fact that innocent people are being put in cages for absolutely nothing. Public attention to these laws is the first step.
really?(and I am talking about local government budgets not state) http://www.city.laconia.nh.us/uploads/administration_dept/docs/Budget/BUDGET%20FY2012.pdf public service salaries up, budget up, revenues by taxes up, revenue by non-taxes up, public service costs up... more examples: http://www.cityofportsmouth.com/finance/fy11adoptedbudget.pdf http://www.graftoncountynh.us/Budgets/FY2010%20Budget%20Complete.pdf
OK. So why are you so against the FSP? Why not support others who are working towards liberty?
Freedom4Me73986: OK. So why are you so against the FSP? Why not support others who are working towards liberty?
I have noticed that when debates aren't going your way, you love to change the subject.
Good luck with that. This is Amerika, home to 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners. Like anybody's going to care if a few more preachy, smartass libertarians get thrown in jail for knowingly breaking the law.
FYI it's not just about taxes and draining the state but about drawing attention to the laws and the fact that innocent people are being put in cages for absolutely nothing. Public attention to these laws is the first step. Good luck with that. This is Amerika, home to 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's prisoners. Like anybody's going to care if a few more preachy, smartass libertarians get thrown in jail for knowingly breaking the law.
You should tell all of this to the Keeniacs, not me.
http://freekeene.com/
Go ahead and join in their debate. Tell them why there wrong.
@Izzy. I hope this changes your mind.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=24369.0
New video.
What a joke. The local resident is right... he and his neighbors definitely have an easement on peace & quiet during night-time hours and these fools are violating their property rights... that's not protesting the government, that's protesting peaceful, property-rights-respecting society.
The more I look at it, the more anti-libertarian FSP looks to me.
NH was selected as the destination for the FSP b/c it was already a strongly libertarian state. Even if NH has the same problems as everywhere else in America it's far better in every other respect except property tax. The FSP only has 960 people in NH as it is. Give it time. Once it grows to 2000 you'll start to see huge changes in NH. Even w/ only 960 progress towards a voluntary society is being made. You need to dig deeper and you'll find videos of free market activism in NH where police aren't present at all.
Think of it like this: if you knew that the state was going to rob you, would you rather be robbed by a completely tyrannical state or a less tyrannical state? Police in Manchester and Keene suck but the violent monopolies are much worse in California and New York. I'd rather be extorted by the state in NH than in any other state.
Also I should mention the other goal of Free Keene is to expose the violent nature of the state along with the victimless crime laws.
I have to side with Clayton and the local resident. Libertarians can make their points during daylight hours. No point being annoying during the night. It's not helping your cause.
Libertarians can make their points during daylight hours. No point being annoying during the night. It's not helping your cause.
They do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX50QTu6yu0
Most of the liberty activism in NH appears to be agorism.
My bad. Exclusively during the day.
I still think we should support the FSP and stop dividing the liberty movement.
The debate on F4M motives has been hilarious. Especially because its been more of an in-depth discussion than the topic he posted about. So dude, could you tell us again
Why are you here?
Edit: It's like having a discussion about someone, in front of them, as though they weren't there.
To discuss libertarian philosophy. Who am I talking with, a judge?
Just answer the damn question!!!
Right, that was a very enjoyable debate. >_>
Who do you think was right?
Are you asking why I'm on this forum or why I'm still living in civ?
Dude, remember I was the guy speaking in your defence? (Not in the defence of your 'Prim' beliefs, however).
Relax mate. Just a little parody and sarcasm about JJ & others. =)
Those guys protesting at night should stop dividing the liberty movement.
You are the one thats disgusting. you are sitting in nyour chair, complaining about activists, when people are actually out there, trying to achieve progress. And then you have the nerve to call them the losers and trouble makers? Its as if youre bitter about not achieving liberty that you give up on it, and criticize everyone who happens to actually want to make a difference. It is the pessimist conspiracist line of thought.
Libertarianism is hurt by people like these. You look out of your window and you see someone yelling in the middle of the night - do you want to join their movement or hurl a shoe at them?
Libertarians need to make their movement more palatable by focusing on big government issues and teaching the NAP. From there, the rest of the change will follow.
You know what else libertarianism could justify (besides yelling at night)? Resisting cops if they try to enter your home - for any reason, even with a warrant. Of course, this would escalate to violence, and if you are good enough at staying out of the hands of cops, then possibly a gun fight with a fight with a cop getting hurt or killed. Heck, you could kill all the cops that come to your door. This would not fly well with the public. Indeed, it is a pretty stupid thing to do, not only because cops think they're doing the right thing by entering your house (they are likely not libertarian) but because the public reaction would be to say "look at those libertarian cop killers).
Studying libertarianism and trying to get people to realize that libertarianism isn't about young students smoking pot in NH but a serious political theory.
+1
>>>>You know what else libertarianism could justify (besides yelling at night)? Resisting cops if they try to enter your home - for any reason, even with a warrant. Of course, this would escalate to violence, and if you are good enough at staying out of the hands of cops, then possibly a gun fight with a fight with a cop getting hurt or killed. Heck, you could kill all the cops that come to your door. This would not fly well with the public. Indeed, it is a pretty stupid thing to do, not only because cops think they're doing the right thing by entering your house (they are likely not libertarian) but because the public reaction would be to say "look at those libertarian cop killers).>>>>
this is exactly correct. No one benefits when you harm unwitting agents, and someone has to break the cycle of violence.
Break the cycle of violence. Educate the police about anarchocapitalism during your ride in the police car. Explain to them how dumbasses like chief wouldnt be in charge of them and they wouldnt have to put their lives on the line punishing victimless offenders.
Well, preferably you wouldn't be in the cop car to begin with... Plus, you then make anarcho-capitalism appear to be the philosophy of criminals