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Will You Vote Ron Paul/LP If This Elects Obama?

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BB replied on Sun, Jan 1 2012 11:50 PM

Clayton:

Being new to the forums, I didn't know what NAP meant at first. But it didn't take me long to figure it out as the non-agression principle is part of what solidified my support for libertarian views. I've been arguing politics, rather incarticulately, since 2008. I now have a much more solid foundation on which to base my arguments and hopefully can work on articulating my views better as I learn more and more about them. I could never vote for someone like Gary Johnson though as he is pro-choice.

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Wheylous replied on Mon, Jan 2 2012 12:24 AM

Welcome to the forums and I hope you stick around enough to get used to all the terminology around here! (Subjective Value theory, utility maximization, Say's law, ABCT, natural rights, argumentation ethics, calculation problem, natural monopolies, PDAs, AnCap, minarchy, etc)

The abortion debate has raged on this forum before. If you'd like, check it out:

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/25435.aspx?PageIndex=1

I used to be pro-life until I realized that the reason it's fine to kill pigs but not humans is sentience, not "being alive." We value human life because we're sentient. The fetus is at all times alive but not always sentient. Hence, killing a non-sentient fetus is like killing a liver that is just randomly living.

Before sentience, the fetus is simply property. I know, it sounds extremely cruel, but it boils down to that. Otherwise, I have some very popularly-appealing  pro-life arguments which are wrong :)

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Wheylous replied on Mon, Jan 2 2012 12:29 AM

Rubio was interesting for me. I like his youth and vigor, though he doesn't appear to be much more than a Republican. If he were libertarian I would definitely be excited, though.

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BB replied on Mon, Jan 2 2012 1:24 AM

Wheylous:

I used to be pro-life until I realized that the reason it's fine to kill pigs but not humans is sentience, not "being alive." We value human life because we're sentient. The fetus is at all times alive but not always sentient. Hence, killing a non-sentient fetus is like killing a liver that is just randomly living.

Before sentience, the fetus is simply property. I know, it sounds extremely cruel, but it boils down to that. Otherwise, I have some very popularly-appealing  pro-life arguments which are wrong :)

I can't argue on a scientific level with you on that, I understand the whole non sentient argument I just disagree with it.

My belief is that human life begins at conception and it's evil to take human life. Of course the zygote is not a sentient being, that wouldn't make sense. But it holds the soul of what will be a sentient being. I had nearly given up on religion when I realised that this world is full of evil, the only way we can combat evil is to promote good. I could never consider killing off a child at any stage of development a good thing. Individual responsibilty requires one who lays down and has sex soley for pleasure to accept the results that may come from that pleasure and do what is necessary to protect that result until it is safely out of the womb at which time they can keep it or put it up for adoption. Without promoting a life of individual responsibility, libertarianism will be a hard sell.

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Cases of rape?

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Eric080 replied on Mon, Jan 2 2012 3:05 AM

Seeing as how I consider a vote for Gingrich a vote for Obama, I don't really see the difference.  If Obama can nominate certain justices on the supreme court (I'm going to lower case proper nouns when it applies to the government from now one cheeky), he may nominate some that would force me to purchase health insurance.  Gingrich or Romney would hire Scalia clones who think torture isn't equivalent to a form of punishment.  The bottom line is that they are going to attack us from different angles, so I don't consider Obama to be more terrible than Gingrich.  I consider Gingrich (and probably Romney) one of those early 20th century progressive types, and the same goes for Obama.  Republicans should love Obama's foreign policy since it's essentially the same as Bush, only a little less hawkish on the surface.

"And it may be said with strict accuracy, that the taste a man may show for absolute government bears an exact ratio to the contempt he may profess for his countrymen." - de Tocqueville
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BB replied on Mon, Jan 2 2012 7:10 AM

Wheylous:

Cases of rape?

Dr. Paul is correct in that we will never be able to police the morning after pill. For my wife and I we would raise the child as our own.

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BB replied on Mon, Jan 2 2012 7:16 AM

Although I agree with you to a certain extent, I'm giving the GOP nominee one more chance. If whoever that person is, doesn't get in and deal with Obamacare and turns around and pulls another George Bush by dropping 5 trillion dollars in debt on us then I'm completely done with them.

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Wheylous replied on Tue, Jan 3 2012 12:06 AM

What about 4 months into pregnancy in case of rape?

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BB replied on Tue, Jan 3 2012 12:21 AM

Wheylous:

What about 4 months into pregnancy in case of rape?

 

Absolutely not.

Promoting individual responsibility and being pro-choice is much like sitting at a buffet stuffing your face and promoting healthy eating. They just don't mix.

Ludwig von Mises said:

The main issue in present-day social and political conflicts is whether or not man should give away freedom, private initiative,
and individual responsibility and surrender to the guardianship of a gigantic apparatus of compulsion and coercion, the socialist state.

In today's society, individual responsibility is becoming a rare thing and even more so as long as a central government tries to take on more of it for themselves. In order to promote libertarian ideas, one has to educate others on individual responsibility. A person procuring an abortion is not being responsible for their actions. This is why many people believe government should step in and poke and prod us as if we were cattle to do what they think we should be doing. This is why many religious people believe the government should legislate every moral problem they feel society has.

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Clayton

NAP -> Non-Aggression Principle

WWIDWYA --> What Would I Do Without Your Assistance.

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