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The Trayvon Martin case

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John James Posted: Fri, Mar 30 2012 3:40 PM

Since we don't have a dedicated thread about this, I figured I'd go ahead and make one.  What better way to start it than with a nice dose of reality from (believe it or not) a celebrity gossip blog:

 

Chris Brown looks threatening, better shoot him

15112c_7

Chris Brown went on twitter today to climb on the Trayvon Martin bandwagon by posting a picture of himself in a hoody. Where’s a concerned Hispanic citizen on a mission to take back the streets when we need one? We need El Batman!

Of course if Brown really wanted to be like Trayvon he would have posted a picture of himself when he was 13, since that’s all the media ever does. Like the picture People magazine uses for it’s cover that is always cropped so you don’t see that it was taken in 2008. Or he should have a twitter name like “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA” and post romantic gems like:

“Hahaha Hoe u got USED fa yo loose ass pussy.! Tighten up.! #Literally.”

Or a second twiiter page under the name “T33ZY_TAUGHT_M3″ for things like

“Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”

Don’t get me wrong, my only point is I hate the fucking media for trying to rile everyone up by portraying this kid as some shy, innocent little angel. That’s obviously not a full picture of who he was, but he certainly shouldn’t have been shot for wearing a hoodie. I would have been okay if an English teacher shot him for that grammar however.

 

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Another nice take from Peter Schiff:

 

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The American Journal has compiled a lot of information regarding Trayvon's personality that the media seem to be hiding including his dealings with drugs, how he perceives race (John James having already mentioned his twitter handle), that he was suspended for 10 days either the day of his death or a few days before, as well as the fact that he was sitting on top of Zimmerman and pummeling him and reached for Zimmerman's gun (this being Zimmerman's account of the events). As a matter of his fitness, Trayvon was 6'3" and 150 lbs of muscle and 17 years old (not 12 years old, as the photos that the media are circulating suggest). In brief, here are some details of the case:

 

 

 

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cubfan296 replied on Fri, Mar 30 2012 8:33 PM

  I agree with Schiff on the media portrayal, but the rest of that clip he really showed his ass. An unarmed teenager was shot in killed on a public street, and he immediately takes the word of the shooter?  As if a person claiming self defense has no reason to lie or embellish his side of the story.

  All we really know is that an unarmed man was killed by an armed man on a public street, and that the cops and prosecutors somehow concluded within hours that it was self defense, case closed. That is freaking retarded, I for one don't believe a fucking word from anybody involved in this case, and I especially don't believe the state did its due diligence in investigating a possible murder. 

  It's a big fail all around and unfortunately I think that Mr. Martin's race did play a role in the cops lackadaisical approach to the shooting form the moment they arrived on scene. 

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Wheylous replied on Fri, Mar 30 2012 8:45 PM

I'd just like to take the moment to notice that if this happened under private police, it would be the death sentence of the private system. But no one under the state even begins to think of this as an affront to state police.

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In other, less profane, words, there are two sides to be considered and not all the facts have yet been accounted for?

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Wheylous:
But no one under the state even begins to think of this as an affront to state police.

Perhaps not to the ideal of state police, but people are surely angry about how the state's police handles crimes such as this (cubfan296 is obviously upset). But good point- just goes to show how odd it is for some to not see protection of property, essentially what police are supposed to do, as a service already available on the market and subject to competition and the profit motive.

 

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John James replied on Fri, Mar 30 2012 10:41 PM

cubfan296:
An unarmed teenager was shot in killed on a public street, and he immediately takes the word of the shooter?

Try watching the video again, chief.  No sides taken there.  All he said was "here's what this guy said happened, here's the facts we know so far, and here's what the media and others are trying to spin."

Essentially his entire point was kind of like your false claim against him (except his point is actually accurate): An unarmed teenager was shot in killed on a public street, and everyone immediately takes the word of...who exactly?  Spike Lee?

 

I for one don't believe a fucking word from anybody involved in this case

...I suppose that would include Trayvon Martin's mother, who is trying to trademark simple phrases and cash in on her son's death, too...right?

 

It's a big fail all around and unfortunately I think that Mr. Martin's race did play a role in the cops lackadaisical approach to the shooting form the moment they arrived on scene.

I suppose if he was a white kid who called himself NO_LIMIT_CRACKA, and took pictures of himself posing like a hoodlum, they would have given him a posthumous Medal of Honor.

 

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cubfan296 replied on Fri, Mar 30 2012 11:05 PM

Are you blind or deaf? You need to watch the video again. Schiff clearly took the side of the shooter. It wasn't even close, he was not impartial in the slightest. 

Ya, I don't buy Martin's mother's story one bit, or Zimmerman's family either. Why would anybody  take the family members perceptions as fact? They are clearly biased, and what does Martin's mother trademarking t-shirts have to do with anything?  

Do you honestly believe that Martin's race didn't play a role in the way the cops handled the homicide? What does his twitter account have to with the fact that he was unarmed, shot and killed, and his shooter was absolved of the homicide within hours?

Stay on point here. The system failed this kid, it is indefensible that a homicide "investigation" was concluded as self defense within hours. The police and the prosecutors failed at their responsibilities, and it's hard to believe that if this we're a nice looking white kid that this scenario plays out the same way.

 

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Do you honestly believe that...

Do you honestly not realize that this is exactly the reaction the government and the media are trying to get out of you?  They couldn't care less what your opinion is either way, you're just proving to them that you're their Pavlovian dog; they ring a bell and you drool, mindless hunger with no food in sight.

Take a deep breath and regain your perception.

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cubfan296 replied on Fri, Mar 30 2012 11:52 PM

I could care less about the noise in the media. My reaction is based on perception of facts. An unarmed teenager was shot and killed by an armed man on a public street.

Explain to me how the government - who bungled this situation in the first place - is now trying to convince me that racism was why they bungled it? How is that your argument? I get what the media is doing, anybody with a brain realizes that the media is playing up a racial aspect, but your government conspiracy theory is asinine at best. The government isn't trying to start a race riot to cover up it's incompetence. They aren't trying to convince people that, not only are we incompetent, but we are racist incompetents  

Maybe the police were just normally incompetent in this spot, but I doubt it, people are people, and the Sanford police deal with a lot of black crime. My guess is they did what humans do, and they made assumptions that led to a really bad investigation. 

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I could care less about the noise in the media.

You wouldn't know about it, much less care, if you hadn't heard about it from the media.  You can try to spin that fact however you want, it doesn't change that you did with your behavioral training exactly what they wanted you to.

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cubfan296 replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 12:38 AM

Most certainly, if the media hadn't brought this to my attention, I wouldn't have known about it, very illuminating insight you got there. You do realize that is the function of media, to bring stories of interest to people, stories that hopefully provoke thought, emotion, and visceral reaction.

Who wanted me to do what exactly? Again, the media's job is to present a story in order for people to react to it, my response is personal and based on my perceptions. That's the whole premise behind the media, and me as a consumer of media enjoy this function, it is a two way street. Your describing a function that is open and desired, it is in fact, what you are doing right now, albiet on a much smaller scale. This idea that I'm some sort of mindless dog responding to commands has much merit as you responding to my commands in this thread.

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Wait, I'm confused. I thought this happened on the private streets of a gated community? (Not saying Zimmerman was necessarily justified because of this, but I just thought the kid was trespassing or something).

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Your reaction is based on your perception of facts, but that doesn't mean you have enough facts to adequately form a rational objective opinion about this case. Just because the teenager was unarmed does not make him innocent.

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cubfan296 replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 4:34 AM

 Oh I agree that we can't place an innocent or guilty verdict on Zimmerman's head based on the evidence so far, and in fact I'm not sure we will ever really know what happened. Only two people really know what happened on that night and one of them is dead.

 What I'm upset about, is the way the state has handled the investigation up to this point. I think it's unfair to both Mr. Martin and his family, and I think it's going to end up being egregiously unfair to Mr. Zimmerman. How on earth is he going to get a fair trial(assuming the newly appointed prosecutor indicts)? I actually feel a great deal of empathy for Zimmerman, he may very well get a royal screwing out of this deal.

What happened in this case was gross negligence and presupposition leading to a sloppy investigation that lacked any procedural fidelity. This whole thing could have been avoided if the cops had just treated Zimmerman as a suspect. Self defense can't be assumed, especially in a case were an unarmed man is shot and killed on a public street. Martin wasn't on Zimmerman's property nor was he trying to steal his property, Zimmerman should have had a much harder time convincing the state agents of his self defense claims.   

 

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RothbardsDisciple:

Wait, I'm confused. I thought this happened on the private streets of a gated community? (Not saying Zimmerman was necessarily justified because of this, but I just thought the kid was trespassing or something).

 

 
It was in a gated community and Zimmerman, by his account, was suspicious of Martin when he didn't recognize him. From what I can tell, his father's girlfriend lived in the community and Trayvon and his father were visiting her when he was shot- so Trayvon would not be a familiar face to ZImmerman.

 

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Well, it was only a matter of time before this was blamed on capitalist principles (after citing perceived inadequacies with how the agents of the state went about the case, mind you). Writes Benjamin:


Another related trend contributed to this shooting: our increasingly privatized criminal justice system. The United States is becoming even more enamored with private ownership and decision making around policing, prisons and probation. Private companies champion private “security” services, alongside the private building and managing of prisons.

...

Those reducing this tragedy to racism miss a more accurate and painful picture. Why is a child dead? The rise of “secure,” gated communities, private cops, private roads, private parks, private schools, private playgrounds — private, private, private —exacerbates biased treatment against the young, the colored and the presumably poor.

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DanielMuff replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 11:31 AM

Turns out that Zimmerman is Hispanic. In a totally racist way, I could tell that he wasn't your normal honky white guy--no blonde hair and blue eyes. Anyway, his dad is a non-Hispanic white while his mom is a Peruvian immigrant. I don't know what kind of Peruvian she is--she could be a full-blooded native or a mixture of Japanese, Spaniard and native. As far as his dad, most Zimmerman's I know are Jewish; so, if it turns out that his dad is Jewish, then Zimmerman definitely doesn't fit the archetypical White Southerner that he is being potrayed as. Hell, since mom is a Hispanic immigrant, we might as well call him an anchor baby.

 

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Wheylous replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 12:18 PM

 since mom is a Hispanic immigrant, we might as well call him an anchor baby.

lol

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cubfan296:
Are you blind or deaf?

Nope.

 

You need to watch the video again.

Isn't that what I told you?  Are you one of those little kids who can't come up with something of their own to say so they just repeat back whatever someone says to them?

 

Ya, I don't buy Martin's mother's story one bit, or Zimmerman's family either. Why would anybody  take the family members perceptions as fact?

You tell me, chief.

 

what does Martin's mother trademarking t-shirts have to do with anything?

To me it supports the idea that truth and justice is not exactly at the top of her priorities list.

 

Do you honestly believe that Martin's race didn't play a role in the way the cops handled the homicide?

a) I don't know enough of the facts to make that determination

b) ...but apparently you do (despite the fact that you essentially admitted you don't know very many facts yourself)

c) I don't see how his race matters (something Schiff pointed out).  And it makes me wonder why it matters so much to you.  Are you a racist?

 

What does his twitter account have to with the fact that he was unarmed, shot and killed, and his shooter was absolved of the homicide within hours?

It's one tiny piece of information that goes against the innocent 12 year old boy picture that is getting painted of this person.  And my point in bringing it up was illustrate the possibility that any lack of interest in devoting a lot of time to the case could just as easily be due to the perception that the deceased was a no-good street thug who probably would have killed someone else if he weren't killed himself.  (Not that that's a reason to do shoddy police-work, I'm simply saying automatically jumping to the race card like Pavlov's dog isn't the only option.  ...For the thinking person anyway.  For the average race-baiting ignorant, it obviously is.)

 

Stay on point here. The system failed this kid, it is indefensible that a homicide "investigation" was concluded as self defense within hours. The police and the prosecutors failed at their responsibilities, and it's hard to believe that if this we're a nice looking white kid that this scenario plays out the same way.

The fact that you felt the need to add in the qualifier "nice looking" proves my entire point on that issue.

 

cubfan296:
I could care less about the noise in the media.

You could?  How much less?

 

My reaction is based on perception of facts.

A racist perception of the facts, apparently.

 

Explain to me how the government - who bungled this situation in the first place - is now trying to convince me that racism was why they bungled it?

How about:

"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon."

-Barack Obama

And just incase your racism-obsessed mind will bust out some gymnastics to avoid the connection...let's recognize:

“I voted for Barack because he was black. ’Cuz that’s why other folks vote for other people — because they look like them. [...] That’s American politics, pure and simple. [Obama’s] message didn’t mean sh-t to me."

-Samuel L. Jackson

Barack Obama received 95% of the black vote in 2008.

Oh but no.  He's not trying to incite anything.  He was just making conversation.

 

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RothbardsDisciple:
I thought this happened on the private streets of a gated community?

It did.  It's just that that fact is inconvenient for those who would like to crucify someone while crying "innocent boy, racism, blah blah blah"...so it gets changed to "An unarmed teenager was shot in killed on a public street", as you can see by the almost half a dozen times a single person has repeated that phrase here in this thread alone.

 

 

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Looks like at least some of Pavlov's dogs are coming to their senses...

 

Public opinion shifts on Trayvon Martin case

As news develops about the investigation into the Feb. 26 Trayvon Martin shooting in Sanford, Fla., nationwide support for the arrest of George Zimmerman, the shooter, is softening. That’s the message from a pair of polls — one conducted March 25-26 and the other March 27-28.

The earlier poll, from CNN, found that 73 percent of Americans were in favor of police arresting Zimmerman, the self-appointed neighborhood watch leader who killed Martin after what he has said was an altercation initiated by the unarmed teen.

But just two days later, a national poll from Wilson Perkins Allen (WPA) Opinion Research determined that just 48 percent of Americans said police should arrest Zimmerman — a decrease of 25 percent. [...]

 

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Bert replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 2:21 PM

I don't know if anyone see's the irony of Chris Brown doing this, it's not like he didn't beat the shit out of his girlfriend or anything...

I haven't really looked into this, except occasional Facebook posts/shares that pop up with the added mainstream coverage.  The two things that are suspicious and suspect to bad reporting: old pictures of Trayvon painting him as innocent with oddly enough to bad background (in the sense of ethics or morals, as his Twitter posts reflect), and the assumption of Zimmerman being "white," when you can tell he's Hispanic with a Jewish name.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Old pictures of trayvon painting him as innocent?  Its silly to call that "bad reporting". They had pictures of him, that's what they'll use- would you be more satisfied if they looked for pictures of him that you found more threatening? I don't think his twitter posts reflect that he's some badass out to hurt and rob people either, sounds like the average teenager, nothing out the ordinary. Lol I do not see those showing that he's some kind of "street thug". To use that defame his character to essentially imply that he deserved to get shot or that he was the instigator is an overstretch beyond my imagination.

Police behavior with minorities is pretty obvious to all minorities so people are going to lump the way this whole thing was handled with their own experiences- so that's why a lot of people are incensed by this story in particular. Its really nothing to be surprised about that race is going to play a part into why people are angry.

 

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John Ess replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 5:34 PM

Chris Brown punched Rihanna in the face and beat her up.  He's probably not the type of celebrity you want in your corner; though, at least it isn't Bobby Brown (relation?).

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auctionguy10:
Old pictures of trayvon painting him as innocent?  Its silly to call that "bad reporting". They had pictures of him, that's what they'll use- would you be more satisfied if they looked for pictures of him that you found more threatening?

Well.  If I was posing for pictures trying to look threatening, then I would think it would be fair for others to deduce that I would like to look threatening.

 

 

There was certainly no lack of pictures available.  He posted pictures of himself all over Myspace.  You make it sound like "oh these 4-5 year old pictures were all they had, so that's just what they used."  No.  My guess is that's just how far back they had to go to find a photo of him where he didn't look like a street thug.  And a large part of my point is that that is because that's exactly how he was trying to look anytime he posed for a picture past the age of 11 (evidently).

 

 

Notice how for the magazine covor they conveniently crop out the 4 year old date.

 

I don't think his twitter posts reflect that he's some badass out to hurt and rob people either, sounds like the average teenager, nothing out the ordinary.

Yes, every teenager I've ever known refers to themself as "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA" (or some other racially appropriate slur) and posts things like “Hahaha Hoe u got USED fa yo loose ass pussy.! Tighten up.! #Literally.

 

Lol I do not see those showing that he's some kind of "street thug".

Then I suppose it's a good thing you didn't meet Trayvon when he was alive.  He probably wouldn't have been too happy with you laughing at his attempts to come off looking hard.  It's quite possible he would even have attacked you for it.

 

To use that defame his character to essentially imply that he deserved to get shot or that he was the instigator is an overstretch beyond my imagination.

What you call "defaming character" anyone with two cents worth of brain calls "assessing the reality" of the people involved.  I doubt anyone made him pose for those pictures.  I doubt anyone made him call himself "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA".  That's what he himself put out there.  That's the image he wanted to portray for himself.  If you think it "defames his character", I'd say that speaks more to his character than anyone simply stating the facts.

 

Police behavior with minorities is pretty obvious to all minorities so people are going to lump the way this whole thing was handled with their own experiences- so that's why a lot of people are incensed by this story in particular. Its really nothing to be surprised about that race is going to play a part into why people are angry.

Are you trying to justify knee-jerk accuastions of racism?  If not, I fail to see what was the point in simply saying "it's not surprising" that people would have a Pavlovian reaction when a black guy is killed by someone who isn't black.  If anything, I would say your statement is insulting to black people.

 

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cubfan296 replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 6:39 PM

- The reason that I'm mentioning that it's a public street is because that's an important fact in this case.  This wasn't Zimmerman's property, nor was it someone else's property that Zimmerman was preventing Martin from entering, Martin wasn't trespassing in any way. Yes, it is a gated community, and perhaps to be semantically  correct we could use communal property, but for all intents and purposes they were in a public street.

- We all agree that the media portrayal of Martin's character was a farce, I've mentioned that in every post in this thread. What is interesting though, is the rush in the opposite direction  to portray Mr. Martin as a thug, using different media sources. As if two wrongs make a right, pointing out that the MSM is obviously race baiting is fine, and I've agreed with that point every step of the way. But to then use MSM sources to then portray Martin as a thug and his mother a profiteer, is the height of hypocrisy. It seems that many of you are conditioned to be anti MSM, that no matter the story, you are going to take a position against the media, just because you don't like the way they are leading you. That is the definition of close mindedness, that is the definition of a learned response, i.e. Pavlov's dogs. It's ok to understand  that the media is full of shit, and to distil the truth of the  for yourself, it's called critical thinking.

- George Zimmerman's race is irrelevant.

-  I tend to believe that the police handled this case based on Mr. Martin's appearance. Now, his clothing may have played a large role, a white kid dressed the same way may have been treated the same way, we don't know. But it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that the police were influenced by his race.  It's also possible that the police acted consistently with any other government agency, and simply lacked any competence. But dismissing the  idea, that possibly the police were influenced by race in this case is as absurd as automatically accepting it.

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cubfan296:
The reason that I'm mentioning that it's a public street is because that's an important fact in this case.  This wasn't Zimmerman's property, nor was it someone else's property that Zimmerman was preventing Martin from entering, Martin wasn't trespassing in any way. Yes, it is a gated community, and perhaps to be semantically  correct we could use communal property, but for all intents and purposes they were in a public street.

If it's a public street, why is it gated in by a private organization?

 

We all agree that the media portrayal of Martin's character was a farce, I've mentioned that in every post in this thread. What is interesting though, is the rush in the opposite direction  to portray Mr. Martin as a thug, using different media sources. As if two wrongs make a right, pointing out that the MSM is obviously race baiting is fine, and I've agreed with that point every step of the way. But to then use MSM sources to then portray Martin as a thug and his mother a profiteer, is the height of hypocrisy. It seems that many of you are conditioned to be anti MSM, that no matter the story, you are going to take a position against the media, just because you don't like the way they are leading you. That is the definition of close mindedness, that is the definition of a learned response, i.e. Pavlov's dogs. It's ok to understand  that the media is full of shit, and to distil the truth of the  for yourself, it's called critical thinking.

Yes, perhaps you should use some of that critical thinking...instead of just crying "racism" anytime a police department doesn't investigate a crime to your satisfaction.

 

George Zimmerman's race is irrelevant.

But Trayvon Martin's isn't?  Yeah I gotta say you're really winning me over with this.

 

I tend to believe that the police handled this case based on Mr. Martin's appearance.

You've made that embarrassingly obvious.

 

Now, his clothing may have played a large role, a white kid dressed the same way may have been treated the same way, we don't know.

But of course, you do know.  That's why it's called "critical thinking" when you assume his race was the factor, but "hypocrisy" and Pavlovian "anti-MSM" when anyone suggests the possibility that it wasn't.  Got it.

 

But it isn't out of the realm of possibilities that the police were influenced by his race.

No one said it was, chief.  You're the one who came in here spouting you "beliefs" as if they were obvious fact, and implying that anyone denying it was either blind or incompetent or biased.

 

It's also possible that the police acted consistently with any other government agency, and simply lacked any competence.

Well look who just caught up.

 

as absurd as automatically accepting it.

Oh you mean like you were doing?

 

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cubfan296 replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 7:29 PM

Do you think that it being a gated community changes something? I'm honestly curious, maybe I'm missing something.

I'm simply pointing out that IMO the police may have been influenced by Mr. Martin's race. I'm not declaring that as fact, and I've repeadetly stated that perhaps it was simply incompetence. If you don't want to take that into account that's perfectly fine, as is my opinion that it should be. Again, I have never once made a statement that it was a fact,  but merely my opion. 

 

 

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cubfan296:
Do you think that it being a gated community changes something?

Yes.  It changes (usually) the owner of the street, and certainly, who can access it.

 

I'm honestly curious, maybe I'm missing something.

Yes.  You're missing: the gate.

 

I'm simply pointing out that IMO the police may have been influenced by Mr. Martin's race.

Exactly.  Your opinion based on...nothing much more than, well, your opinion evidently.  That's a large part of my point. 

 

I'm not declaring that as fact, and I've repeadetly stated that perhaps it was simply incompetence.

"repeatedly"...in your last post, after you were called out for your knee-jerk assumption.

 

If you don't want to take that into account that's perfectly fine, as is my opinion that it should be. Again, I have never once made a statement that it was a fact,  but merely my opion.

However when you imply that it's surprising that someone could believe otherwise, it becomes more than "merely your opinion".  It's kind of like when someone like Bill Maher makes a sarcastic comment along the lines of:

"Oh yes.  We can't have people actually getting the medical care they need for free.  What a horrible existence that would be.  Oh the humanity."

The implication is that socialization of health care is obviously the logical, rational, efficient and economical way for the industry to operate.  He's not making an argument; he's making a statement...which in turn implies that there isn't even an argument to be had because he's simply right.  It's a clever way people in his position of "political comedian" (like Jon Stewart) are able to get away with injecting their policy beliefs into discourse, not only without having to defend them, but without even having people recognize there's a potential case to be made against it.

This is essentially the same thing you were doing when you would say things like "Do you honestly believe that Martin's race didn't play a role in the way the cops handled the homicide?"

It's not sharing "merely your opinion"...it's a ploy...a tactic to introduce your opinion (ill-informed as it is) into the discussion as if anyone who didn't share your view is either (as I said) blind or incompetent or biased...which in turn implies that it's more than just your opinion.

 

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cubfan296 replied on Sat, Mar 31 2012 7:58 PM

- You need to go back and read my previous posts. I clearly stated that it was quite possibly normal police incompetence

- You can infer whatever you want about my claims, but I do find it hard to believe, get over it. You are the one freaking out over my opinion, as if it is crazy, beyond the realm of possibility. I can easily see how they could have just made mistakes, like I have repeatedly stated! So why is it so hard to believe that they could have easily been influenced by Mr. Martins race? Why are you so scared to even let the idea in? 

- how specifically does the gated community change things? They were both legally on the property, they were both invited in so to speak. It wasn't Mr. Zimmerman's property to protect. Like I said, we could change it semantically to communal property, but I'm not seeing the fundamental difference.  We have two people on a communal piece of property, one armed, and one dead. 

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here was certainly no lack of pictures available.  He posted pictures of himself all over Myspace.  You make it sound like "oh these 4-5 year old pictures were all they had, so that's just what they used."  No.  My guess is that's just how far back they had to go to find a photo of him where he didn't look like a street thug.  And a large part of my point is that that is because that's exactly how he was trying to look anytime he posed for a picture past the age of 11 (evidently).

And why would you expect them to go get his myspace pictures and plaster them on the newspapers? He's a dead kid- they're not going to throw up his pictures from his personal websites. That's a stupid complaint to have. The pictures you posted just show him being a very typical teen- I don't see that as evidence of his "thugness". Ohh noo he had his middle fingers up and showed some cash. Who the hell cares? I don't even see that as him "trying" to look threatening. Just what is threatening about any of those photos?

Yes, every teenager I've ever known refers to themself as "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA" (or some other racially appropriate slur) and posts things like “Hahaha Hoe u got USED fa yo loose ass pussy.! Tighten up.! #Literally.

lol you live in a community with a different culture. I grew up with teens who acted like that all the time-they would talk crass but still go home to their parents and do their homework. Its not evidence of anything, period. I used to say dumb mysogynistic things too when I was younger but its not evidence of being a street thug- that's stupid beyond belief. 

Then I suppose it's a good thing you didn't meet Trayvon when he was alive.  He probably wouldn't have been too happy with you laughing at his attempts to come off looking hard.  It's quite possible he would even have attacked you for it.

You're talking absolute nonsense. I was always around people who were trying to come off looking hard- its nothing new and its just a way to get attention. You get scared easily and that's all I can tell from you saying he would've possibly "attacked me" for it. 

What you call "defaming character" anyone with two cents worth of brain calls "assessing the reality" of the people involved.  I doubt anyone made him pose for those pictures.  I doubt anyone made him call himself "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA".  That's what he himself put out there.  That's the image he wanted to portray for himself.  If you think it "defames his character", I'd saythat speaks more to his character than anyone simply stating the facts.

He wanted to portray an image of what he thinks looks cool. SO WHAT? Lots of teenagers do that. If you think that's enough to say that he's someone who's more likely to assault someone on the street then you don't know what actual thugs are like. This isn't evidence of anything. The only evidence I see is that people from outside of that culture are completely terrified of it. Middle fingers, curse words, and a fashion style that you don't approve of do not show me that he's going to go assault someone. 

I think its the funniest thing ever to say "Oh no look at this kid! He called himself NO_LIMIT_NIGGA on a social networking website its definitely possible he attacked Zimmerman now". This has to be a joke of some kind. 

Are you trying to justify knee-jerk accuastions of racism?  If not, I fail to see what was the point in simply saying "it's not surprising" that people would have a Pavlovian reaction when a black guy is killed by someone who isn't black.  If anything, I would say your statement is insulting to black people.

No sir, I was just trying to explain it. Telling you why people may feel a certain way doesn't mean I condone it. Again its not exactly about him being killed by someone who isn't black, its about the botched police work. Its the reaction to the way police treat minorities. Its quite natural at this point to get angry about these situations if you live in a minority community. There's nothing insulting about it- but take it for what you will. 

 

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auctionguy10:
And why would you expect them to go get his myspace pictures and plaster them on the newspapers? He's a dead kid- they're not going to throw up his pictures from his personal websites.

Pardon my French, but that's done all the fucking time.  Have you ever even seen a news report past 2003?  They do it for anyone and everyone they're reporting on.  They did it for virtually every major "lone gunman" (VA Tech, Norway, Columbine (yes, two guys, but you get the idea)).  They did it for virtually every missing/killed kid ever since online profiles have existed.   And like I said, the likely biggest reason for doing it in this case is because it's the only way they could even find a photo of him past the age of 11.

But oh we can't be having recent photos of the guy.  No.  That would be "defaming his character".

 

That's a stupid complaint to have. The pictures you posted just show him being a very typical teen- I don't see that as evidence of his "thugness". Ohh noo he had his middle fingers up and showed some cash. Who the hell cares? I don't even see that as him "trying" to look threatening. Just what is threatening about any of those photos?

Baahahahaha

 

lol you live in a community with a different culture. I grew up with teens who acted like that all the time-they would talk crass but still go home to their parents and do their homework. Its not evidence of anything, period. I used to say dumb mysogynistic things too when I was younger but its not evidence of being a street thug- that's stupid beyond belief.  [...]

You're talking absolute nonsense. I was always around people who were trying to come off looking hard- its nothing new and its just a way to get attention.

"Blah blah blah I know plenty of "great kids" who talk like that and call themselves those things but when it comes to actual work performance or real-world interactions, they're perfect angels!  I was a dumb mysogynist too!  And look how great I turned out!"

Yes personal anecdotes are really convincing here.

I'm sure Trayvon Martin was going off to do his homework just as he was brutally attacked for wearing a hoodie.  I'm sure he spent all the time he spent outside of school after being suspended 3 times — for truancy (guess he was busy doing homework), vandalism (research for physics project?), drug residue (chemistry project?) — doing homework.

 

You get scared easily and that's all I can tell from you saying he would've possibly "attacked me" for it.

My how the ignorance shows.  You have absolutely no clue who I am or where I live or the people I've dealt with.  You have no clue what my life has consisted of...at all.  And you're going to purport to tell me about me.  Allow me to return the favor.  You obviously do live in a "different culture" where suburban upper middle class moron kids pretend to be thuggish and then actually go home and eat their peas and do their homework.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you've never been actually attacked in your life.

And as for Trayvon Martin...George Zimmerman's face and head would tell you a thing or two about whether Trayvon Martin would possibly attack you for rubbing him the wrong way.

 

He wanted to portray an image of what he thinks looks cool. SO WHAT?

You tell me.  I'm not the one who said simply mentioning the fact equates to "defaming his character".  I agree with you.  (I even said what you just said in the very post you're quoting from.  May you want to re-read that part).  It's an image he wanted to portray for himself.  That's how he wanted the world to know him.  And you're the one trying to claim simply stating something as simple as his twitter handle is "defaming his character".

Sounds to me like you don't think the things he did and said (you know, the stuff that makes up one's character) look very good.  Which is why when someone says "this is what Trayvon Martin called himself.  These are things he tweeted (as in...posted for the world to read).  This is what he actually looked like after the Bush administration, etc." you come back and cry: "Character defamation!  You can't just go around showing recent photos of someone and repeating what they actually said and did!  (Or, I mean, at least if it's bad, anyway)."

 

Lots of teenagers do that. If you think that's enough to say that he's someone who's more likely to assault someone on the street then you don't know what actual thugs are like.

Trust me.  I know what actual thugs are like.

 

This isn't evidence of anything. The only evidence I see is that people from outside of that culture are completely terrified of it. Middle fingers, curse words, and a fashion style that you don't approve of do not show me that he's going to go assault someone.

"That culture"?  Oh the one where were kids try to look and act like hoods and then go home and help their mom bake cookies after they volunteer at the soup kitchen and help old ladies across the street for 2 hours?

 

I think its the funniest thing ever to say "Oh no look at this kid! He called himself NO_LIMIT_NIGGA on a social networking website its definitely possible he attacked Zimmerman now".

I'd definitely be interested to see or hear where anyone ever said that.  All I've ever heard was something to the effect of "this was not some helpless, innocent 11 year old boy that you see plastered all over the news and on magazine covers.  This was a 6'3" seventeen year old.  If you want a more realistic picture of what we're talking about here, this is how he portrayed himself: x, y, z.  The other party involved (Zimmerman) alleges the deceased attacked him and at one point was on top of him and pounding Zimmerman's head into the concrete while Zimmerman screamed for help.  Injuries on Zimmerman's person, as well as evidence from at least one eyewitness account as well as recorded audio from the scene, support this story."

 

Its quite natural

So...according to you, it's natural for black people to knee-jerk react and cry "racism"...but you're not basically saying they're Pavlovian dogs.  Got it.

 

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Pardon my French, but that's done all the fucking time.  Have you ever even seen a news report past 2003?  They do it for anyone and everyone they're reporting on.  They did it for virtually every major "lone gunman" (VA Tech, Norway, Columbine (yes, two guys, but you get the idea)).  They did it for virtually every missing/killed kid ever since online profiles have existed.   And like I said, the likely biggest reason for doing it in this case is because it's the only way they could even find a photo of him past the age of 11.

But oh we can't be having recent photos of the guy.  No.  That would be "defaming his character".

Yeah and I'm glad that they didn't do it this time. There really was no reason to, I don't see it as evidence of anything. 

Baahahahaha

Exactly. That's how I felt when you bring up those photos as if they have any meaning. They don't. 

"Blah blah blah I know plenty of "great kids" who talk like that and call themselves those things but when it comes to actual work performance or real-world interactions, they're perfect angels!  I was a dumb mysogynist too!  And look how great I turned out!"

Yes personal anecdotes are really convincing here.

I'm sure Trayvon Martin was going off to do his homework just as he was brutally attacked for wearing a hoodie.  I'm sure he spent all the time he spent outside of school after being suspended 3 times — for truancy (guess he was busy doing homework), vandalism (research for physics project?), drug residue (chemistry project?) — doing homework.

Your intense fear of crass language and equating that to someone who's capable of committing assault is complete paranoia. Truancy and marijuana residue doesn't tell me he's capable of assault either. There's a hell of a lot of teenagers that do all the above that you listed that don't commit random assaults on people. Your argument is more worthless than anecdotal evidence. At least you can actually meet kids like the ones I'm talking about if you really wanted to. They exist right here in New York.  I'd find it hard to believe that you've only met people that act in a rigid and predictable manner like storybook characters in your life. 

 

My how the ignorance shows.  You have absolutely no clue who I am or where I live or the people I've dealt with.  You have no clue what my life has consisted of...at all.  And you're going to purport to tell me about me.  Allow me to return the favor.  You obviously do live in a "different culture" where suburban upper middle class moron kids pretend to be thuggish and then actually go home and eat their peas and do their homework.

You're scared of the pictures and twitter posts Trayvon put up. If you're able to make a quick judgement about his character from that- I can make just as quick of a judgement about who you are just the same from everything you said.  I live in Jamaica Queens, come around, go visit some of the schools here- talk to the kids. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about. They're not suburban upper middle class kids, they're kids from the middle to lower class. But even if they act stupid on the internet or with their friends at school, they're not out robbing or assaulting anyone. The ones that do actually go out and rob people aren't on twitter.  I think its funny that you can't even imagine it. Don't have to believe me, look for yourself.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you've never been actually attacked in your life.

lol this statement alone just reinforces my belief that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to what will tell you if someone if capable of assault or not. Its not pictures of middle fingers and dollar bills. 

And as for Trayvon Martin...George Zimmerman's face and head would tell you a thing or two about whether Trayvon Martin would possibly attack you for rubbing him the wrong way.

 

Looking at George Zimmerman's head and face from the recent police video that was released looks like he looks just fine. I love how you say that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman for rubbing him the wrong way. Why not say that Zimmerman attacked Trayvon and that Trayvon was defending him? Zimmerman has a history of actually committing assault in the past. Not just "truancy". 

 

You tell me.  I'm not the one who said simply mentioning the fact equates to "defaming his character".  I agree with you.  (I even said what you just said in the very post you're quoting from.  May you want to re-read that part).  It's an image hewanted to portray for himself.  That's how he wanted the world to know him.  And you're the one trying to claim simply stating something as simple as his twitter handle is "defaming his character".

Talking about "hoes" and pictures with his shirt off doesn't tell me that he's capable of assault. You're the one making those connections. 

Sounds to me like you don't think the things he did and said (you know, the stuff that makes up one's character) look very good.  Which is why when someone says "this is what Trayvon Martin called himself.  These are things he tweeted (as in...posted for the world to read).  This is what he actually looked like after the Bush administration, etc." you come back and cry: "Character defamation!  You can't just go around showing recent photos of someone and repeating what they actually said and did!  (Or, I mean, at least if it's bad, anyway)."

Sure his pictures aren't classy, but that doesn't mean I think he's capable of assault because of them. You're not making any sense. You can say he was a dumb kid if you want- but that's not why you're implying when you bring those photos and twitter posts up. 

Trust me.  I know what actual thugs are like.

Convincing. 

"That culture"?  Oh the one where were kids try to look and act like hoods and then go home and help their mom bake cookies after they volunteer at the soup kitchen and help old ladies across the street for 2 hours?

Come on don't be so thick-headed, life isn't about living in extremes all the time of either being a bandit or a priest. These kids try to act cool infront of their friends and also because they think that's what girls like to see. People are more dynamic than you might want them to be. Yes they can try to act hard and then when they're home and their mom tells them to wash the dishes they'll go ahead and do it.

I'd definitely be interested to see or hear where anyone ever said that.  All I've ever heard was something to the effect of "this was not some helpless, innocent 11 year old boy that you see plastered all over the news and on magazine covers.  This was a 6'3" seventeen year old.  If you want a more realistic picture of what we're talking about here, this is how he portrayed himself: x, y, z.  The other party involved (Zimmerman) alleges the deceased attacked him and at one point was on top of him and pounding Zimmerman's head into the concrete while Zimmerman screamed for help.  Injuries on Zimmerman's person, as well as evidence from at least one eyewitness account as well as recorded audio from the scene, support this story."

You consistently imply it by bringing it up his twitter name in the first place as if its important or meaningful in anyway. The pictures and twitter posts do not show me that he's a nutjob out to assault people for no reason. Zimmerman's 911    phone conversation sure does. As well as other witness accounts that it was Trayvon screaming for help. Zimmerman has an actual history of assault too. 

So...according to you, it's natural for black people to knee-jerk react and cry "racism"...but you're not basically saying they're Pavlovian dogs.  Got it.

Its natural for anyone to have a knee-jerk reaction based on past experiences. Just like how you get scared when you see photos of someone looking "thug". There's nothing inherently wrong about having those feelings- nor does it make you less of a person. 

 

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A bunch of straw men and baseless accusations.  Yawn.  Why am I not surprised.

 

auctionguy10:
Your intense fear of crass language and equating that to someone who's capable of committing assault is complete paranoia. Truancy and marijuana residue doesn't tell me he's capable of assault either. There's a hell of a lot of teenagers that do all the above that you listed that don't commit random assaults on people. Your argument is more worthless than anecdotal evidence. At least you can actually meet kids like the ones I'm talking about if you really wanted to. They exist right here in New York.

"Blah blah blah, I have no argument so I'm just going to attack the person making one and attempt to discredit them by projecting my faux psychoanalysis".

 

You're scared of the pictures and twitter posts Trayvon put up. If you're able to make a quick judgement about his character from that- I can make just as quick of a judgement about who you are just the same from everything you said.  I live in Jamaica Queens, come around, go visit some of the schools here- talk to the kids. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about. They're not suburban upper middle class kids, they're kids from the middle to lower class. But even if they act stupid on the internet or with their friends at school, they're not out robbing or assaulting anyone. The ones that do actually go out and rob people aren't on twitter.  I think its funny that you can't even imagine it.  Look for yourself if you don't believe me.

"You're scared of twitter pictures, you've never been in the hood, you don't know the kids from hard knocks with the hearts of gold, blah blah blah"

I can't believe you're even spending time typing this.

 

lol go ahead and say that I've never been attacked in my life. Being involved in something like that isn't something I'd have to brag about or prove to you.

Because I'm right.

 

Your statement just reinforces my belief that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to what will tell you if someone if capable of assault or not. Its not pictures of middle fingers and dollar bills.

Riiiight...Because the fact that you've never been assaulted makes you a seasoned expert on the subject.

 

you say that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman for rubbing him the wrong way.

Please show me where I said that.

 

auctionguy10:
You tell me.  I'm not the one who said simply mentioning the fact equates to "defaming his character".  I agree with you.  (I even said what you just said in the very post you're quoting from.  May you want to re-read that part).  It's an image hewanted to portray for himself.  That's how he wanted the world to know him.  And you're the one trying to claim simply stating something as simple as his twitter handle is "defaming his character".

Talking about "hoes" and pictures with his shirt off doesn't tell me that he's capable of assault. You're the one making those connections.

I must say I do love watching you dance around the issue.  We're not talking about "capability of assualt".  We're talking about whether simply stating someone's twitter handle and showing a recent photo of them amounts to "defamation of character."  You say it does.  I say the fact that you say it does illuminates more about what you think about those things than anything else.

You have expended all this effort claiming those things are essentially meaningless...yet at the same time you're so adamant about claiming they are so utterly damning to his character.

Lotta logic there.

 

auctionguy10:
Sounds to me like you don't think the things he did and said (you know, the stuff that makes up one's character) look very good.  Which is why when someone says "this is what Trayvon Martin called himself.  These are things he tweeted (as in...posted for the world to read).  This is what he actually looked like after the Bush administration, etc." you come back and cry: "Character defamation!  You can't just go around showing recent photos of someone and repeating what they actually said and did!  (Or, I mean, at least if it's bad, anyway)."

 

Sure his pictures aren't classy, but that doesn't mean I think he's capable of assault because of them. You're not making any sense. You can say he was a dumb kid if you want- but that's not why you're implying when you bring those photos and twitter posts up. Do you understand the difference?

See above, since this is basically a repeat of the same nonsense.

 

As well as other witness accounts that it was Trayvon screaming for help.

Ooo!  Please share those!

 

auctionguy10:
So...according to you, it's natural for black people to knee-jerk react and cry "racism"...but you're not basically saying they're Pavlovian dogs.  Got it.

Its natural for anyone to have a knee-jerk reaction based on past experiences.

Because everytime a black person has been shot, it's been because of racism.  Makes perfect sense.  Totally natural.

 

Just like how you get scared when you see photos of someone looking "thug".

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I wonder if this was a setup by the elites like the anti-semitic shootings in France probably were.

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Here's an update: The voice screaming for help in the audio? It may not be Zimmerman's according to "voice experts."
 

Trayvon Martin Shooting: Voice Experts Claim Cries Heard On 911 Call Were Not George Zimmerman's

 

 

 

One expert, Tom Owen, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman as the source. From the Sentinel:

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

 

If I had a cake and ate it, it can be concluded that I do not have it anymore. HHH

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