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Is Civilization Evil?

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Clayton replied on Thu, Apr 19 2012 8:41 PM

And what does it mean for anything to exist inherently, let alone "the market" which isn't even a thing, it's the set of economic relationships and interactions between individuals?

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I meant to say, as long as there's humans there will be a market, since markets are just individuals acting voluntarily.

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Ag is violent. I blame the state for subsidizing the crap out of it AND making us dependent on it for food when ag will be what leads to human extinction.

 

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Clayton replied on Thu, Apr 19 2012 10:09 PM

Hunting is violent. Good God.

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Neodoxy replied on Thu, Apr 19 2012 11:18 PM

"Fools need some "expert's" studies because the scientific studies performed by their own brains aren't good enough. I don't need an official "scientific study" conducted by idiots to tell me that there is a connection between aggression/statism and civ/tech. Every news I read, everything I see and everything I know points to the fact that I'd be better off living outside of civ, off the grid and in the least violent state (New Hampshire) so when the state and civ start to collapse and their violence steps into overdrive I know I'll be able to survive w/o having to deal."

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Laugh all you want. Go ahead. Logically speaking we know our civ won't last. Look at how the state keeps monopolizing natural resources AND cages anyone who tries to live sustainably. Tragedy of the commons combined with criminalizing living naturally AND mass subsidies to big ag AND the dumbing down of children through gov schools AND poison in food/medicine and tech (like cancer phones) will kill us.

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What would it take to convince you that you are wrong, and are in danger of going down a path that you should not be going?

 

Also, what led you to your conclusions?  What got you started?  Ex: was it LRC articles on survivalism, what was it?

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence"  - GLS Shackle

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What would it take to convince you that you are wrong, and are in danger of going down a path that you should not be going?

Explain to me USING LOGIC that civilization won't collapse and that industrial ag can be sustainable.

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Bert replied on Fri, Apr 20 2012 1:06 AM

Can you define civilization?

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Can you define civilization?

http://harmonhouse.net/archive/fdl/friends014.html

Civilization: cities, artificial replication of food (ag), mixed with forced collectivism.

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excel replied on Fri, Apr 20 2012 2:22 AM

Agriculture is the artificial replication of food? Are we eating virtual bread?

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Clayton replied on Fri, Apr 20 2012 3:11 AM

@excel: I'm still trying to figure out how hunting is not violent...

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excel replied on Fri, Apr 20 2012 4:47 AM

@Clayton: Similarily, where is the line drawn between agriculture and foraging. If you forage a berry bush often, thus becoming little more than a berry-farmer, does that make you evil/civilized/violent?

If, after years of harvesting apples from different trees that are all a mile away, apple trees grow from the seeds that you either carelessly and violently discared into fertile plots of earth or which were expunged with your waste in different areas that are closer to your home, and you start eating from those trees instead of trekking a mile to get from the original ones, have you then become a violent apple-farmer?

Is it more violent to push a potato into the ground than to pull it out? Or is it the planning part of the planting of a potato that makes it violent?

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Explain to me USING LOGIC that civilization won't collapse and that industrial ag can be sustainable.

That's impossible.  I can't logically tell you anything about the future. I can no more tell you logically that civilization will collapse, than I can tell you that the US won't nuke Canada tomorrow, or that pigs will evenually fly.  I do think that those are foolish things to think, and ultimately counter productive modes of thinking.

As for the sustanability of the Industrial age; the proof is in the existence.  If you consider yourself living in the industrial age and are able to live in it - it is sustained.  We can also say that if everyone decided to do what you wish to do billions wold perish - as that life style can not sustain the extant population - the only thing that can would be civilization.

Iff no one can convince you that yo are no more of an anarcho-capitalist than Rousseau based off of simple grammar, much less logic - I think you have to realize that logic won't convince you of anything.  We are arguing with an aesthetic and an attittude - and I think it is a dangerous one to adopt

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence"  - GLS Shackle

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@excel: I'm still trying to figure out how hunting is not violent...

I don't hunt. I eat a 100% raw vegan diet excluding raw milk. I adhere to the NAP and I don't believe in exercising violence over other animals.

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Explain to me USING LOGIC that civilization won't collapse and that industrial ag can be sustainable.

That's impossible.  I can't logically tell you anything about the future. I can no more tell you logically that civilization will collapse, than I can tell you that the US won't nuke Canada tomorrow, or that pigs will evenually fly.  I do think that those are foolish things to think, and ultimately counter productive modes of thinking.

As for the sustanability of the Industrial age; the proof is in the existence.  If you consider yourself living in the industrial age and are able to live in it - it is sustained.  We can also say that if everyone decided to do what you wish to do billions wold perish - as that life style can not sustain the extant population - the only thing that can would be civilization.

Iff no one can convince you that yo are no more of an anarcho-capitalist than Rousseau based off of simple grammar, much less logic - I think you have to realize that logic won't convince you of anything.  We are arguing with an aesthetic and an attittude - and I think it is a dangerous one to adopt

Claiming that industrial civ hasn't collapsed yet doesn't mean it won't collapse in the future. There is tons of evidence of pending collapse.

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bloomj31 replied on Fri, Apr 20 2012 2:11 PM

So what do you actually eat?

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So what do you actually eat?

Raw veggies + raw fruits (dependent on ag at the moment but soon enough I'll know how to gather my diet in the wild), raw milk and non-fluoridated (non-poisoned) water.

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bloomj31 replied on Fri, Apr 20 2012 2:19 PM

And this is for every meal?

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  • and non-fluoridated (non-poisoned) water

I love how you always do this.  From now on I will refer to pasteurized milk as "pasteurized milk (non-infected)", and civilization as "civilization (non-boneheadedtechnophobia)

Pray tell, do you test all your water sources for giardia, and naturally high levels of lead and arsenic? 

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Neodoxy replied on Fri, Apr 20 2012 2:32 PM

"Logically speaking we know our civ won't last."

That cannot be determined a priori, this requires knowledge of empirical observation and a gained understanding of human action.

"Look at how the state keeps monopolizing natural resources AND cages anyone who tries to live sustainably."

That has nothing to do with how long civilization will last. Indeed this could well last longer than in a market state of affairs within the current system, due to the large scale environmentalism of our day. Civilization might not last well under such circumstances, but it will certainly last.

"Tragedy of the commons combined with criminalizing living naturally AND mass subsidies to big ag AND the dumbing down of children through gov schools AND poison in food/medicine and tech (like cancer phones) will kill us."

  1. Nothing to do with civilization
  2. Living naturally would not prolong civilization unless it happened on a mass scale
  3. Nothing would kill "us" faster than the end of civilization
  4. Dumbing down of the populous doesn't have much to do with how civilization will fare. Democracy sucks no matter how stupid people are. What matters is ideology, which is only loosely linked to intelligence, not intelligence itself.
  5. You have not described how civilization is bad or how I or anyone else would do well to abandon civilization. You have especially failed in any sort of description as to why it is that civilization should be abandoned rather than reformed. Indeed some of your reasons for wanting to abandon civilization, "It will kill us all" falls on its face when we realize that the end of civilization will kill us all.

Most importantly, however, you have not justified one iota of what was in your original post. Statism can only exist within civilization in the same way that cancer can only exist in a body. Indeed this is a good analogy for what you are doing:

It is well known that having legs allows legs to be in a position where legs can break. This causes a great deal of discomfort and means that the individual in inhibited because he is trapped within a cast for months, which restricts his motion. Therefore, the only logical thing to do is to amputate everyone's legs forthwith. 

Furthermore, the fact is that if everyone followed your advice and civilization ended, then man would likely fall into a state of barbarism. You wouldn't live well, you'd likely be raided and killed. Indeed only those who survived would be those who cooperated and formed large social groups, during which time they'd probably find it advantageous to cooperate to produce goods, and produce items which improve the quality of their lives, E.G civilization.

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of people benefit from advanced civilization and society. I, and most people on earth, would rather live in a heavily statist society, than a solitary and primitive lifestyle. The only way that your method makes sense is if it is acknowledged as either A: A personal system because YOU like living on your own, in which case you have not answered the question  WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? Or B: A personal system suggested as an alternative of a heavily totalitarian state, which would be an answer to the question WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? Or finally C: A social system to lead to the downfall of statism, shortly followed by the reformation into a more libertarian civilization. Any of these would, however, not explain the inherent correlation between civilization and statism/violence, or why people are inherently better living in primitive isolation, which would appear to be some of your major theses.

Tide goes in, tide goes out. I don't know how you intend to explain that.

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  1. Indeed some of your reasons for wanting to abandon civilization, "It will kill us all" falls on its face when we realize that the end of civilization will kill us all.

This made me crack up.  I mean back when I was 18 I got a kick out of imagining myself in the nuclear apocolypse or a zombie outbreak, and how it would be so cool to try and survive that situation.  You wouldn't have to go to work or school, and all your neat survival skills would get you the girl, etc.  Then you get older and realize that you are not a unique snowflake and would likely die of starvation, assault, or the initial catastrophe, and that if you did survive life would SUCK after the novelty of it all wore off.

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  • and non-fluoridated (non-poisoned) water

I love how you always do this.  From now on I will refer to pasteurized milk as "pasteurized milk (non-infected)", and civilization as "civilization (non-boneheadedtechnophobia)

Pray tell, do you test all your water sources for giardia, and naturally high levels of lead and arsenic?

Ever been to Natural News or FoodFreedom? You will never look at food the same way when you realize 99% of the food sold in stores is poisoned.

 

"Logically speaking we know our civ won't last."

That cannot be determined a priori, this requires knowledge of empirical observation and a gained understanding of human action.

How can you rely on empirical evidence? Life is way too complex. As an austrian you should know this. And if you want empirical data all you need to know is that every other single civ in history has collapsed and the only ones which haven't have sustained themselves through VIOLENCE.

 

"Look at how the state keeps monopolizing natural resources AND cages anyone who tries to live sustainably."

That has nothing to do with how long civilization will last. Indeed this could well last longer than in a market state of affairs within the current system, due to the large scale environmentalism of our day. Civilization might not last well under such circumstances, but it will certainly last.

No it won't. How can it?

 WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?

Why do you think?

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  • Ever been to Natural News or FoodFreedom? You will never look at food the same way when you realize 99% of the food sold in stores is poisoned.
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Please define a posion.  Please note that "has a multi-syllabic chemical name that I don't understand as an ingredient" doesn't mean "posioned".

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Poison= causes cancer, mental illness or some other weakness.

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  • Poison= causes cancer, mental illness or some other weakness.

By that logic water and sunlight are posion.  You're forgetting one key factor.  I'll let you figure that out.

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Your missing the point. The poison in our food is mostly unnatural. That's what makes it cancer/autism causing. Read Natural News.

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  • Your missing the point. The poison in our food is mostly unnatural. That's what makes it cancer/autism causing.
  •  

First off, you still didn't properly define a posion.  Secondly, please explain to me, in moderate detail, how cancer cells form.  You're demonstrating a profound ignorance about basic medical information and I want to make sure I'm mistaken about that ignorance before proceeding.

 

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How can you rely on empirical evidence? Life is way too complex. As an austrian you should know this. And if you want empirical data all you need to know is that every other single civ in history has collapsed and the only ones which haven't have sustained themselves through VIOLENCE

 

Logic can't predict thee future, period.  If it could, everyone would want to be a logician, and all the previous logicians woud be filthy rich.As far as civ's collapsing - civilization hasn't really ever collapsed, in fact on a whole it has grown.  If you are saying the Assyrians were replaced by Babylonians, etc - sure whatever - different govt's and actions inheret different civs or evolve in different ways, no big deal

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

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Claiming that industrial civ hasn't collapsed yet doesn't mean it won't collapse in the future

 

Obviously, I already stated logic can't predict jack as far as the future is concrned - that's my main point...you ask the impossible and nonsensical

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

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Neodoxy replied on Fri, Apr 20 2012 10:21 PM

"How can you rely on empirical evidence? Life is way too complex"

Because the factors of civilization, not the nature of civilization, determine whether or not it cannot last. We can determine things based upon our understanding of man, but the nature of civilization itself cannot determine whether or not it is destined to collapse soon. This depends upon the exact factors of our day in conjunction with deductive reasoning NOT SIMPLE LOGIC.

"As an austrian you should know this."

As an Austrian I make damn sure that I understand exactly how to come to appropriate conclusions using both a priori and a posteriori reasoning. I don't assume that simply one or the other can solve all solutions. You are alive today because man is capable of using both of them properly, not because man decided to use "entirely a priori reasoning" and thusly starved to death while trying to eat rocks. 

"And if you want empirical data all you need to know is that every other single civ in history has collapsed and the only ones which haven't have sustained themselves through VIOLENCE."

All men are destined to die, I guess we should just kill ourselves and get it over with. And what part of the fact that 99.99 percent of all human beings are better off in a statist society over isolation don't you get?

"No it won't. How can it?"

By working together within an integrated market system consistently interfered with by government intervention as well as a large variety of other forms of human cooperation, all of which make use of man's resources to the best of his abilities.

"Why do you think?"

Theory 1: You're too weak to actually put your words into action and so you find it easier to identify yourself as a "survivalist" who knows better than anyone else and so will be the smart one laughing outside of the smoldering anthill when things go to hell, while still being able to enjoy all of the wonders that result from human cooperation and civilization. This both gives a hobby, increases your self esteem level, and allows you to look down upon others, without the dirty business of living out in the woods and dying alone at age 50 after you start getting arthritic pains or break your arm, both of which act as death sentences. 

Theory 2:

 

 

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Claiming that industrial civ hasn't collapsed yet doesn't mean it won't collapse in the future

 

Obviously, I already stated logic can't predict jack as far as the future is concrned - that's my main point...you ask the impossible and nonsensical

 

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"How can you rely on empirical evidence? Life is way too complex"

Because the factors of civilization, not the nature of civilization, determine whether or not it cannot last. We can determine things based upon our understanding of man, but the nature of civilization itself cannot determine whether or not it is destined to collapse soon. This depends upon the exact factors of our day in conjunction with deductive reasoning NOT SIMPLE LOGIC.

All civ's are inherently unsustainable. EVERY OTHER civ has collapsed. Understand? Nothing people can do can change this.

 

Theory 1: You're too weak to actually put your words into action and so you find it easier to identify yourself as a "survivalist" who knows better than anyone else and so will be the smart one laughing outside of the smoldering anthill when things go to hell, while still being able to enjoy all of the wonders that result from human cooperation and civilization. This both gives a hobby, increases your self esteem level, and allows you to look down upon others, without the dirty business of living out in the woods and dying alone at age 50 after you start getting arthritic pains or break your arm, both of which act as death sentences. 

Skill-wise I should be ready to leave shortly. But I also need to homestead enough land up in the woods of NH to sustain myself.

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excel replied on Sat, Apr 21 2012 4:46 AM

I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate that every other civ has collapsed. If civilization is defined as agriculture+state+violence, then obviously these factors have remained a constant presence for a few thousand years now and therefore civiliation has never collapsed since it's inception. The only thing that has changed is the state. Violence has stayed, agriculture has stayed. 

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Neodoxy replied on Sat, Apr 21 2012 12:34 PM

"All civ's are inherently unsustainable."

Only in name. Most actual civilizations have been consistently in existence without much interruption, especially since the advent of the industrial revolution. I think you're getting mixed up between the existence of states and the existence of civilization. Only a handful of civilizations have ever actually been eradicated, states have come and gone but civilization has almost always remained. Name the most famous civilizations in our day, China, Japan, France, England, Egypt, hell, you can point to almost every civilization in existence today outside of the Americas and you can then trace those civilizations back at least 5,000 years. So it would seem that empirical evidence is on my side, as the vast majority of significant civilizations that you can actually argue were wiped out or totally collapsed were in America surrounding imperialist expansion, and you don't seem worried about alien invaders. 

Plenty of states have gone in and out of existence but society and civilization has almost always remained. As an Austrian, I would have thought you would have been able to tell the difference.

And you still haven't refuted the fact that practically everyone who ever lived has been enriched by civilization, including yourself. I also find it amusing how you point to the fact that modern foods are unhealthy for you, when people live longer now than they ever have before. 

" EVERY OTHER civ has collapsed. Understand?"

No they haven't.

"Skill-wise I should be ready to leave shortly. But I also need to homestead enough land up in the woods of NH to sustain myself."

That's good. I wish you luck.

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I already pointed that out neo, using verification - and assuming his term civ means anything worth a damn, logic (which is his criterea I guess)

Maybe you spelling it out more will help show how wrong his assumptions are (ex: we don't care about an Assyrian govt being replaced by a Babylonian one, etc) - thouugh I doubt it.

Also, as far as I am involved in this conversation - which may not be much longer - I will not accept a video, link, or quote as a response.  I want a typed answer from F4Me in his own words.

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Bert replied on Sat, Apr 21 2012 2:23 PM

I want a typed answer from F4Me in his own words.

That's something that just will not happen.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Clayton replied on Sat, Apr 21 2012 3:15 PM

I want a typed answer from F4Me in his own words.

He has a very packed schedule since living off-the-grid is very demanding.

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