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Is there a way to deal with super pro Israel people?

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Aristophanes Posted: Fri, May 11 2012 2:44 AM

I just had two people come at me in a thread on Gplus saying...."I remember when some arab with laundry on his head got shot and it was good thing.  You went about your day."

I proceeded to point out his rapist mentality and overall ignorance, but then another person chimed in and told ME I was out of line for saying, "I hope those arabs bomb you."  Then they blocked me from posting so I could not respond.  Amazingly, I did not get accused of anti-semitism, which is odd.  I'm sure after I was blocked the conversation continued...

But the kid who said bomb the arabs also said "I knew if I mentioned sensible foreign policy you'd rage."

He was half-right.

I F******* HATE people for this reason.  I can handle people theoretically supporting arbitrary violence (eg. debating NAP even application of state violence in general) and certain levels of willful ignorance, but not out right support for apartheid violence.  I mean, I am awesturck at this.  I think racism is funny for the most part, until it turns pyshically hurtful.  It also always seems to be the most heated around Israel.   The religious factor around Israel is like irrationality on acid and PCP.  You just don't know what you are gonna get. 

Well except...

Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel.Israel...

We need them to make our elections work, right? Just like we need Lithuania for our politics, right?

Anyway, how do you respond when people start saying things like this without losing it?  I usually don't even get mad, but I can feel fisticuffs tingling.  That is when the explitives fly.

"The Fed does not make predictions. It makes forecasts..." - Mustang19
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I assume it is only people that identify as jewish, which traces back to the chosen people prophecy.  I can't see why anyone else would give a rat's ass about that sand pit.

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excel replied on Fri, May 11 2012 7:05 AM

You'd be surprised. I mean, I can't understand why people give a damn about a bunch of sweaty men kicking a ball back and forth in a field, but apparently it's worth rioting over in the UK. 

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Merlin replied on Fri, May 11 2012 7:09 AM

Caley McKibbin:

I assume it is only people that identify as jewish, which traces back to the chosen people prophecy.  I can't see why anyone else would give a rat's ass about that sand pit.

Something about a medieval monk having received the transfer of god’s original covenant with the Israelites to all Christians. Quite silly to be fair.

The Regression theorem is a memetic equivalent of the Theory of Evolution. To say that the former precludes the free emergence of fiat currencies makes no more sense that to hold that the latter precludes the natural emergence of multicellular organisms.
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Autolykos replied on Fri, May 11 2012 8:04 AM

Aristophanes:
I just had two people come at me in a thread on Gplus saying...."I remember when some arab with laundry on his head got shot and it was good thing.  You went about your day."

Lovely.

Aristophanes:
I proceeded to point out his rapist mentality and overall ignorance, but then another person chimed in and told ME I was out of line for saying, "I hope those arabs bomb you."

Translation: "STFU!!!!!!!!11!!!!1"

Oh wait, you said "I hope those arabs bomb you"? With all due respect, I don't see how that's productive. I certainly don't think it's going to lead the others into re-examining their positions/beliefs/etc. Is that what you were trying to do, or were you just trying to shut them up?

Aristophanes:
Then they blocked me from posting so I could not respond.

Translation: "STFU!!!!!!!!11!!!!1"

Also: "LOL WE R MOAR POWERFLU THEN U LOLOLOLOLOL"

Aristophanes:
But the kid who said bomb the arabs also said "I knew if I mentioned sensible foreign policy you'd rage."

He was half-right.

Again, the translation is: "STFU!!!!!!!!11!!!!1"

This time it's more subtle, though. He's not directly trying to intimidate you. Rather, his intent is for his audience to associate his own foreign policy with "sensibility" and to think that your objections are unreasonable (hence the use of the word "rage", which implies blind, irrational anger/hatred).

Aristophanes:
I F******* HATE people for this reason.  I can handle people theoretically supporting arbitrary violence (eg. debating NAP even application of state violence in general) and certain levels of willful ignorance, but not out right support for apartheid violence.  I mean, I am [awestruck] at this.  I think racism is funny for the most part, until it turns [physically] hurtful.  It also always seems to be the most heated around Israel.   The religious factor around Israel is like irrationality on acid and PCP.  You just don't know what you are gonna get.

I think it gets so heated around Israel because of the carefully-cultivated public image of Israel being Good and Innocent - kinda like US, actually - in the face of the Arabs/Palestinians who are Bad and Guilty. So basically it comes down to the whole "they hate us because we're Good" mentality. Anyone who argues against the Good Guys must then be a Bad Guy, right? Because how can he be Good if he argues against Good?

With that in mind, I think a good approach (no pun intended) is to try to show how the Good Guys aren't so Good and the Bad Guys aren't so Bad. That could go a long way in shattering the groupthink that this is ultimately based on. At the very least, it'll force those who engage in such groupthink to be honest about it.

The keyboard is mightier than the gun.

Non parit potestas ipsius auctoritatem.

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Clayton replied on Fri, May 11 2012 12:39 PM

My aunt is not Jewish and she is so wrapped up in this it blows my mind. She actually entertained for a while the idea of moving to Israel to volunteer in the IDF - by "volunteer" I mean literally no pay, just room and board. They have menial tasks that they will allow people (enthusiasts like her) to join and do if they want.

Zionism, Israel, the East-West conflict, etc. are all rich areas for the application of memetic and thymological analysis. Why the hell do these memes get such a grip on people? My theory is that these memes are an outlet for people's otherwise stunted sensation of being alive.

As I talk about in my Blavatsky/etc. threads, when you look up at the stars, you are in direct communion with the Universe, with whatever is the ultimate reality in which we are all existing. There are no priests or kings who have to mediate this process or grant you permission to do so. All you have to do is just look up and there it is. But the many varieties of servility memes inculcate people with a feeling of inadequacy - you are not adequate to stand in the Universe as a peer with anything else with which you come into contact. You are diminutive, small, nothing. You are a tiny, powerless organism on a tiny planet next to a tiny star in a tiny arm of a tiny galaxy lost in the random fluctuations of an incomprehensibly large Cosmos.

To challenge this dogma is downright rude. You are saying you're smarter than all the PhDs and more qualified than all the elected and recognized political and religious leaders in the world to determine what is right and wrong, how you should act and what - if any - purpose your life serves. You're saying that you know better than everybody else.

But there are a few areas where it's OK to be in direct contact with the Cosmos, that is, in direct contact with God's Plan for History and All Humanity. One of those areas is "the land of Israel." Nevermind that it's not the land of Israel, nevermind that the majority of the pre-Titus history we have concerning Palestine is unreliable at best, fabricated at worst. Nevermind that Jews were legally allowed to resettle the land as they saw fit but on their own dime prior to the 1948 creation of the monstrous imperial government in Palestine which is responsible for countless crimes. All of that doesn't matter because by being part of Israel, you become part of the eschaton, God's work on the Earth.

It is an analogy to the way that patriotic sentiment is an outlet for repressed self-interest. You cannot just go out and start a business baking bread for profit (at least, not without very conditional permission from many bureaucrats). However, you are free to join the army or support the system as a political pundit and pour your suppressed entrepreneurial energy into that, instead.

Clayton -

http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.com
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Kakugo replied on Sat, May 12 2012 3:00 AM

Ask them one thing: have they ever been to Israel? Have they ever broken loose of the State-supplied guides to have a look at the country? Have they ever seen an Ultraorthodox in Jerusalem up close? Or an Arab child in Bethlem? Have they talked to Syriac Christians in the Old City? Have they asked local merchant the meaning of the oversized Israeli flags hanging from dilapidated buildings in the Muslim Quarter?  If not tell them to go visit the country and report back.

As I said multiple times I used to be like the people you describe. Then I went to Israel. Through various dodgy means me and a few others broke free of the tour group and hooked up with a Catholic priest one of them knows who acted as a guide and interpreter. Eye opening? You can bet. Was the guide p***ed? You can bet on it, especially when she learned we had been talking to the Arabs and the Ultraorthodox.

Surprise, Arabs aren't kalashnikov wielding thugs aiming to end the Western civilization to bring about the caliphate. They are ordinary people like us. Many of them are enraged with Israel, not because "Israel exists" but because Israel treats them as third rate citizens, kicks them out of their homes, harasses them on their way to work and paints them as a bunch of bloodthirsty terrorists. Many Palestinians also despise other Arab countries, and not without reason. Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have all betrayed the Palestinians at some point. Kuwait, Oman and Qatar are seen (not without reason) as to be in the same bed as Israel.

Surprise, Ultraorthodox aren't running Israel. In fact they are in a very difficult position, being very pious persons in what's basically an atheist State hiding behind the maghen. They just want to work, study the Talmud and be left alone, like they did for centuries in Lithuania, Poland and the Hapsburg Empire. They worship God, not the State and resent interference in their affairs. Most of them are very intelligent, mild mannered, highly educated and, may I add, seem genuinely pleased when the goyim want to learn more about them. They are a stark contrast with the Israeli leadership.

Finally Israel is not the Jewish paradise on Earth propaganda paints it to be. First class citizens (mostly the descendants of secular Zionist immigrants, like the Benjamin Netanyahu) look upon other Jews with contempt and treat them as such. "Johnnies-come-late" (Sephardites from North Africa, Ethiopian falasha, immigrants from post-Soviet Russia etc) and "aborigines" have access only to second-level housing, second-level jobs and second-level services. They are the one who took to the roads in the protest last Summer and the ones who are drafted into the army as cannon fodder. For many of them the only chances of social improvement come from a career in the military (mostly the Army, as the Air Force is an "elite force" in all senses) or emigration to the US.

So unless they have been to Israel and experienced the place outside of the tour groups they can shut up.

Together we go unsung... together we go down with our people
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