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All political systems are pure bull.

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Austen Posted: Fri, Jun 1 2012 12:42 AM

I submit that anyone who subscribes to any sort of political ideal or label is full of bullsh*t.

In order to give a more specific definition: This set includes people who call themselves Liberals, Conservatives, Independents, Libertarians, Democrats, Republicans, etc. Anyone and everyone who can apply a label on their political beliefs, is full of bullsh*t.

My rationale is that for every individual, no matter how intelligent or well-versed you may be, will eventually abandon his or her individual thinking and start to bias themselves towards their accepted label. A person who could have a fair mix of ideas stemming from two or three different "labels" will eventually move towards whichever one he or she deems most fitting, for no better reason than the fact that he or she eventually becomes brainwashed by the pleasure of being part of an exclusively labeled group.

I submit that eventually, a person's political ideas become nothing more than a plea for social recognition. Nobody who labels themselves a certain political direction really knows or applies politics in any practical or efficient way, much like sports fans or band groupies.

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hmm.

So basically, you need to be politically ambigous, unprincipled, and essentially inchoate in your political philosophy, otherwise you're "brainwashed" and simply trying to "be part of an exclusively labeled group."

Okie dokie.

Got any more cool stories, bro?

 

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Austen replied on Fri, Jun 1 2012 1:12 AM

You're getting closer to the perfect rebuttal of this position.

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Anenome replied on Fri, Jun 1 2012 1:54 AM

Austen:

My rationale is that for every individual, no matter how intelligent or well-versed you may be, will eventually abandon his or her individual thinking and start to bias themselves towards their accepted label. A person who could have a fair mix of ideas stemming from two or three different "labels" will eventually move towards whichever one he or she deems most fitting, for no better reason than the fact that he or she eventually becomes brainwashed by the pleasure of being part of an exclusively labeled group.

I submit that eventually, a person's political ideas become nothing more than a plea for social recognition.

By this you don't say anything interesting, except to reveal your own underlying value structure, which you mistakenly then apply to everyone else. Such may make sense to you that people would do this sort of thing--probably because you yourself are thinking in these terms.

However, there are people out there whokm genuinely value truth over 'social recognition.' In short, anyone not driven by the value of social recognition would not apply to your rationale.

Austen:
Nobody who labels themselves a certain political direction really knows or applies politics in any practical or efficient way, much like sports fans or band groupies.

I'm confused here; are you saying that most people who label themselves don't understand the ideas behind the label? What do bands/groupies have to do with it?

Not sure what philosophy you're actually pushing, except perhaps pure emotionalism, since all you've attacked here is using labels--labelling itself being a function of reason and science via categorization.

Autarchy: rule of the self by the self; the act of self ruling.
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Kleptin replied on Fri, Jun 1 2012 2:02 AM

He's basically directing this at people who feel strongly enough about their label to defend it. They have ingrained their political ideas into the definition of their sense of self. That's why people who constantly talk politics have a tendency to be obnoxious and stubborn.

Can someone live without a political worldview? It depends on what you mean. People develop opinions about how the world should be, in favor to them or their ideals. To say this is the same as declaring yourself a Liberal, a Conservative, a Democrat, or a Republican, is idiotic. When you start to fall in love with the label, you lose your individual view of the world, and you become heavily biased. Your opinions no longer reflect your reality. The more staunch a proponent of a political group, the more full of sh*t I consider that person to be.

His focus isn't on debunking the validity of the ideas that people promote on the part of their political label. He didn't mean to say that all political systems are pure lies. He meant that they're pure bull sh*t, because that's exactly what the proponents are doing: Spreading insincere, ignorant, unrealistic, impersonal bullsh*t.

The core ideas of any political system are probably very solid, just like how sports teams are all made up of some really good players. It's the fans that are full of the bullsh*t.

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Look at this guy talking about how bogus labels are, but then labeling people as attention whores.  

I submit to you that what is less important than the definitions a person gives to themselves is the definitions one gives to others.  For it is in the latter that we find how desirous of social recognition that person is, how far they will go to put themselves above the rabble.

In States a fresh law is looked upon as a remedy for evil. Instead of themselves altering what is bad, people begin by demanding a law to alter it. ... In short, a law everywhere and for everything!

~Peter Kropotkin

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Although I very rarely use labels for my own thoughts, there's nothing necessarily wrong with using labels, e.g. for convenience, which is why we use abstract words at all.  The problem is when the opinions are based on the label rather than the label being based on opinions.

The Voluntaryist Reader: http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.com/ Libertarian forums that actually work: http://voluntaryism.freeforums.org/index.php
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I may be totally off my rocker here, but I find it potentially quite funny and curious that Kleptin--with 1 post--is supporting Austen--13 posts--using nearly identical language and (good) spelling proficiency, somewhat-awkward sentence structure, grammatical cues (capitalizing the first word after a colon (Austen: "specific definition: This set includes..."--Kleptin: "...what the proponents are doing: Spreading insincere..."), awkward to improper use of commas, etc), argumentative mannerisms, etc, to the point where at several points Kleptin is telling us what Austen definitely meant ("He's basically directing this at people who…", "He meant that they're...") and didn't mean ("His focus isn't on..." "He didn't mean to say that...") to the point that he even seems to conflate his opinion with Austen's ("...the more full of sh*t I consider that person to be"). That last point is the most tenuous, but in tandem with the other observations, I don’t know…

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I'd love to get a mod in on this to see if Kleptin just happened to sign up moments before he commented on this thread to defend Austen. It still wouldn't be conclusive but it would be interesting nonetheless.

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Kleptin replied on Fri, Jun 1 2012 5:29 AM

He doesn't seem to want to argue the point. A few posts up, Austen typed, "You're getting closer to the perfect rebuttal of this position." I'm not sure why he would want or need an alternate account other than to BS with people.

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NEPHiLiX:
I may be totally off my rocker here

No.  I'd say you're spot on.  There's even more evidence you didn't mention.

You do realize this sort of thing is frowned upon, in virtually every forum on the Internet, don't you Austen/Kleptin?

 

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Obama must have created a new Department of Trolling or something...

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Kleptin replied on Fri, Jun 1 2012 5:45 AM

Rather than frame Austen for a crime in which he did not commit (and prove his implication in another one), I shall spoil my little prank. Click here: http://www.debate.org/forums/politics/topic/21420/

I assume Austen simply wanted an appropriate rebuttal to the real Kleptin's thread and will not be too pissed at me.

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Neodoxy replied on Fri, Jun 1 2012 11:45 AM

"I submit that eventually, a person's political ideas become nothing more than a plea for social recognition. Nobody who labels themselves a certain political direction really knows or applies politics in any practical or efficient way, much like sports fans or band groupies."

I submit that anyone who claims to know this about every single individual who labels themselves is absolutely full of sh** 

;D

At last those coming came and they never looked back With blinding stars in their eyes but all they saw was black...
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You're probably more right than wrong.  Unless you find an imperative of political categorization to be something like:

For on to state to have no political position, is a political position

I could see this as true because you are probably entering the realm of political conversation by critiquing all the political positions - while trying to dodge everything at once.  In this case it's a form of nonsense or a useless skeptical comment.  That is you have banished yourself from any worthwhile conversation in this category.

 

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence"  - GLS Shackle

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Austen replied on Sat, Jun 2 2012 10:49 PM

Anenome has presented the best rebuttal to this position. Is there a way to reward him with gold coins?

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