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John James Posted: Wed, Jun 6 2012 2:07 AM

[split from How Libertarian Is Gary Johnson?]

 

What's an anarchocapitalibertarian?

 

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Why do you ask so many questions?

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Why is that relevant?

Do you just not have an answer for this latest one?

 

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It's a word I made up. Jeesh.

 

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Oh.  Well what does it mean?

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An anarchist... who likes capitalism... but still likes to call himself a libertarian so his parent's don't flip out.

You can't just put forth an anarchist candidate. That's something hippies do.

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Hippies put forth anarchist candidates for elections?  Like who?

 

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Pigasus the Pig, 1968.

 

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Pigasus was an anarchist?  Do you have any writings or speeches of his that you could cite for support on this claim?

 

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Well, he was a pig. And I don't think he would govern in a governmental fashion, if he governed at all.

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Well I thought an anarchist was

an·ar·chist

[an-er-kist]

noun

1. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy  or anarchism.

2. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.

 
3. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.

So

a) I wasn't aware any pig (let alone this one) advocated, sought, or promoted anything.

b) I think his being a literal pig disqualifies him as being "a person" anyway.

 

So how exactly is this an example of an anarchist candidate?

 

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You got me, James. I better bring this up at my Animal Liberation Front meeting.

 

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That's probably a good idea.

 

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Clayton replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 8:01 PM

[Split from What's wrong with the mainstream media? here]

 

The (left) anarchist?

Was there something in there I was supposed to dislike?

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mustang19 replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 8:03 PM

Was there something in there I was supposed to dislike?

If you're an anticapitalist, no.

Otherwise it was incredibly ironic of you to post that particular Carlin video on Mises.

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Clayton replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 9:23 PM

Otherwise it was incredibly ironic of you to post that particular Carlin video on Mises.

I would love for you to explain the irony since that particular video is actually a staple of my posts...

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mustang19 replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 9:35 PM

When he says businessmen control things, he means it quite literally. Private property under your "anti-statist" definition is not what he's defending.

 

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Jargon replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 9:38 PM

Does Clayton need your permission to admire non-anarcho-capitalists?

Land & Liberty

The Anarch is to the Anarchist what the Monarch is to the Monarchist. -Ernst Jünger

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Jargon replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 9:41 PM

@Mustang's Carlin

Sounds about right

Land & Liberty

The Anarch is to the Anarchist what the Monarch is to the Monarchist. -Ernst Jünger

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John James replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:43 PM

mustang19:
Sorry to burst your bubbles, but all the cool people in world really are leftists.

Ida know.

These guys are pretty cool...

   

 

 

 

 

 

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We'll give them an axiom they can't refute

=D hahahahahah

"The Fed does not make predictions. It makes forecasts..." - Mustang19
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John James replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:58 PM

Total badass, right?  I have no idea who this troll thinks he's fooling.

 

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mustang19 replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 11:19 PM

forum ate my post

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forum ate my post

As opposed to the troll eating the thread?

"The Fed does not make predictions. It makes forecasts..." - Mustang19
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mustang19 replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 11:37 PM

Good tier: South Park, Branson, Hollywood Lib(ertarians), the two black people in the world who happen to be libertarian (actually only one, you can guess).

The surprising support in the polls for Congressman Ron Paul seems to be of this sort. But does anyone seriously want to put the fate of this nation in the hands of a man who can casually brush aside the danger of nuclear weapons in the hands of Iran, the world's leading sponsor of international terrorism?

- Thomas Sowell

[C:TUI by Ayn Rand is] one of the best defenses and explanations of capitalism one is likely to read.

- Walter Williams

"Freedom is not compatible with democracy" tier: Theil

Too lazy to put his ideas into practice tier: Cigar guy

Old, fat, tier: Academics (they don't count)

Really? tier: Penn, Peter "history of things that haven't happened yet" Schiff (not a libertarian anyway)

 

So I take back my statement. There are some cool people in there, besides Martin Luther King Rosa Luxembourg Albert Fucking Einstein nevermind. But I'll note your lack of estrogen and raise you:

Running for president- and not even old enough!

 

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John James replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 12:02 AM

mustang19:
- Thomas Sowell  - Walter Williams

I'm confused.  Are you saying they're leftists?

 

"Freedom is not compatible with democracy"

You have a problem with this?  Are you suggesting it is?

 

Too lazy to put his ideas into practice tier: Cigar guy

Again, I'm confused.  You're calling Doug Casey a leftist?

 

Old, fat, tier: Academics (they don't count)

Why not?

 

Really? tier: Penn, Peter "history of things that haven't happened yet" Schiff (not a libertarian anyway)

I'm confused.  You're calling Penn Jillette and Peter Schiff leftists?

 

So I take back my statement.

I would hope so.

 

There are some cool people in there, besides Martin Luther King Rosa Luxembourg Albert Fucking Einstein nevermind.

I don't get it.

 

But I'll note your lack of estrogen and raise you:  Running for president- and not even old enough!

I still don't get it.

 

You literally said all the cool people in the world are leftists, I provide you some examples that refute that, and you come back thinking you're refuting me by claiming those people aren't all really libertarian?  

Even assuming for the sake of argument you're right...what the hell difference does it make? 

I can't believe you spent the time to create such a post in the first place...let alone more than once.

 

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Aristippus replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 12:10 AM

Clint Eastwood.  You lose, punk.

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mustang19 replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 12:17 AM

I'm confused.  Are you saying they're leftists?

You gonna put forth Ronald Reagan and ask the same question?

Calling them warmongering leftists is an exaggeration. More like a Rand fan and a warmongering neocon. But alright, they're fine.

You have a problem with this?  Are you suggesting it is?

Heeey, I'm not ready to turn democracy over to David Theil's creepiness just yet.

Again, I'm confused.  You're calling Doug Casey a leftist?

He said he's going to build his Ancap Island amusement park and he isn't getting around to it.

Why not?

Sex appeal. Little known fact: it's very important in economics.

I'm confused.  You're calling Penn Jillette and Peter Schiff leftists?

On trade and manufacturing Peter Schiff is further left than any officeholding Democrat, while Jillette is... an athiest who choses to affilliate with the Godtards behind Ron Paul.

I can't believe you spent the time to create such a post in the first place...let alone more than once.

Name one woman libertarian. Choose carefully. We have to cover all the cards.

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Clayton replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 1:02 AM

@mustang19: Has the possibility ever crossed your mind that perhaps, just perhaps, the mainstream political philosophical taxonomy is one-dimensional and utterly fails to take into account vast swathes of economic and political ideas?

I heartily assent to Carlin's quotes and find very little to disagree with him on. His economics was weak (he believed in MW, SS, etc.) but still better than the man on the street and his class analysis and historical revisionism was dead on target, putting all but a few pundits like Chomsky or Vidal to shame.

I recommend you drop your preconceptions and actually read what people here write to get an idea of where a lot of folks on these forums are coming from - a lot of it doesn't fit the one-dimensional (or even the two-dimensional-libertarians-are-anti-authoritarian!) political philosophy taxonomy.

As Carlin says, the politicians are just there to give the illusion that you have a choice. You don't have a choice. And the politicians sure as hell can't give you one because it's all just a dog & pony show - and the politicians are the dogs & ponies. The #1 problem with naive political action (Vote Republican! Vote Democrat! Vote Green Party!) is that it is a complete failure to acknowledge the real structure of power. You cannot challenge the power structure if you are in near total denial that it even exists. Yet the vast majority of Americans are and discussion of this subject is not even permitted in polite conversation.

And I don't even pretend to have the answers, either. So I don't know why you're trying to box and label me.

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mustang19 replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 1:12 AM

Has the possibility ever crossed your mind that perhaps, just perhaps, the mainstream political philosophical taxonomy is one-dimensional and utterly fails to take into account vast swathes of economic and political ideas?

Nope, sorry, major revelation for me. Lemme go remove those Che tattoos.

I recommend you drop your preconceptions and actually read what people here write to get an idea of where a lot of folks on these forums are coming from - a lot of it doesn't fit the one-dimensional (or even the two-dimensional-libertarians-are-anti-authoritarian!) political philosophy taxonomy.

Sadly, too much of it does.

I heartily assent to Carlin's quotes and find very little to disagree with him on. His economics was weak (he believed in MW, SS, etc.) but still better than the man on the street and his class analysis and historical revisionism was dead on target, putting all but a few pundits like Chomsky or Vidal to shame.

Ah, your core differences about politics go out the window so you can feel good watching him. You funny guy.

And I don't even pretend to have the answers, either. So I don't know why you're trying to box and label me.

Don't put yourself in one. When the answer to everything related to the (largely abstract and fuzzy) constrast between "government" and "markets" is "more free markets", that's when you're just setting yourself up. I hope that you aren't like that.

You cannot challenge the power structure if you are in near total denial that it even exists. Yet the vast majority of Americans are and discussion of this subject is not even permitted in polite conversation.

And if every business was employee seized and owned, and government subordinated to agreements between these collectives, the capitalists and politicians would be out of work pretty fast. Wokka wokka.

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Clayton replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 1:24 AM

Ah, your core differences about politics go out the window so you can feel good watching him. You funny guy.

 

Please explain my "core differences" with Carlin. I got to hear this since out of the several hours of Carlin I've listened to, there's probably a grand total of five minutes worth of stuff where I disagree with where he's coming from. And even that is more like "Carlin, if you just read Human Action, you'd literally attain nirvana."

Don't put yourself in one. When the answer to everything related to the (largely abstract and fuzzy) constrast between "government" and "markets" is "more free markets", that's when you're just setting yourself up. I hope that you aren't like that.

Government versus the corporations (what leftists call "the market") is a false-dichotomy. There can be no doubt that honest competition in business would look radically different than the big-box, chrome-plated, criminal-captalism that owns and operates the government as if it were its own, private mafia. I do disagree with many libertarians on this point - many seem to think that we're just a few "tweaks" away from free markets but this just isn't true. The entire social order is warped from top to bottom.

What I don't understand is how you admit that government is owned and operated by the Elites, then turn around and think that government is the solution to this problem. Please explain how the politicians are going to change things. Bush came in 2000 promising "I will not engage in nation-building." LOL Obama came in 2008 promising "I will bring the troops home from Afghanistan and close Gitmo." LOL Promise what they like, the fact is that the President doesn't even have the authority to do those things. This fact doesn't exonerate them, of course, because the entire political scam is predicated on promoting this facade that you have a choice! and the President plays a crucial role in maintaining the illusion.

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mustang19 replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 1:37 AM

Please explain my "core differences" with Carlin. I got to hear this since out of the several hours of Carlin I've listened to, there's probably a grand total of five minutes worth of stuff where I disagree with where he's coming from. And even that is more like "Carlin, if you just read Human Action, you'd literally attain nirvana."

Five minutes, plus all the times where you think you agree with what he means. But even those five minutes are the part where he's actually giving his opinion and not trying to avoid turning people off by saying what actually has to be done.

Government versus the corporations (what leftists call "the market") is a false-dichotomy.

That is not what I was calling the market; my definition is the same as yours. Our difference here is that you think workers shouldn't seize their workplaces, and the profit from running them should instead flow to the elite.

What I don't understand is how you admit that government is owned and operated by the Elites, then turn around and think that government is the solution to this problem.

Government is a tool, not a solution. Eventually the workers will have to seize ownership of capital themselves. In the meantime we can do what we can to tax and regulate the elites and slow them up a bit. Certainly raising the capital gains tax as high as possible, punishing business owners for obstructing labor organizers, stop jobs from moving overseas and outlawing all commerical media companies and campaign donations would be a start. It's hard to be against the elites and support corporate personhood at the same time.

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mustang19:
I'm confused.  Are you saying they're leftists?
You gonna put forth Ronald Reagan and ask the same question?

No I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

Calling them warmongering leftists is an exaggeration. More like a Rand fan and a warmongering neocon. But alright, they're fine.

Still don't know what you're talking about.

 

Heeey, I'm not ready to turn democracy over to David Theil's creepiness just yet.

Still have no idea what you're talking about.

a) I didn't realize there were people in this forum (including trolls such as you) who actually believed democracy was a good thing.

b) I have no idea who David Theil is.

 

Again, I'm confused.  You're calling Doug Casey a leftist?
He said he's going to build his Ancap Island amusement park and he isn't getting around to it.

...and that makes him a leftist?

 

I'm confused.  You're calling Penn Jillette and Peter Schiff leftists?
On trade and manufacturing Peter Schiff is further left than any officeholding Democrat,

Prove it.

 

while Jillette is... an athiest who choses to affilliate with the Godtards behind Ron Paul.

...and that makes him a leftist?

 

Name one woman libertarian. Choose carefully. We have to cover all the cards.

Why?  Why is this even relevant?  What do libertarians have anything to do with anything we were discussing?  Do you have a mental handicap we should be made aware of?

 

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Aristippus:

Clint Eastwood.  You lose, punk.

Right. On.

 

If I had a cake and ate it, it can be concluded that I do not have it anymore. HHH

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I was actually gonna wait for Maiku to come in with his avatar, but I figured it was time.

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mustang19 replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 2:06 AM

forum is a cookie monster for my posts

a) I didn't realize there were people in this forum (including trolls such as you) who actually believed democracy was a good thing.

What we need is more of it, and better informed citizens, with politics decentralized down to the local level and strong grassroots activism. Without that, this is what happens. But that's for another thread.

 

b) I have no idea who David Theil is.

Sorry, Peter Theil. I think.

Prove it.

Okay, he's careful not to explicitly support any tariffs. But he does seem to hail China despite it being far more protectionist than we are.

Why?  Why is this even relevant?  What do libertarians have anything to do with anything we were discussing?  Do you have a mental handicap we should be made aware of?

Someone's jimmies are ruffled. I was just curious if you could find any.

Clayton:

Seriously, that's what I want you to explain to me. Because Carlin doesn't mince words, so it's pretty damn clear what he's saying ... please explain to me where I'm not "getting it."

He's pissed that the businessmen own, as he says, everything- which means he might just think workers should take back ownership rather than "respect" these businesses' private property. And you seem to be willing to consider that, too.

*shrug - he thinks minimum wage helps poor people and I think he's just factually incorrect on that.

When it's fallen as low as it is, that may be untrue.

But they own and operate the government which administers the taxes and regulations. How can you miss this??

Doesn't mean we can't do as much as we can to muck up the system in a way that hurts the elites. Taxing them is one way. But priority number one is seizing the elite's property and wealth, and ultimately replacing the state.

*shrug - I'm not strongly for or against any of the measures you've mentioned. I think we should look at why jobs are moving overseas rather than simply advocating for more post-hoc interventions.

We can, and it has to do with wage competition. When companies can relocate anywhere, Americans have to accept lower wages to compete with the rest of the world.

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Clayton replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 2:06 AM

 

Why do I feel like I'm talking to BirthdayPony? Hmmmmm...

all the times where you think you agree with what he means.

Seriously, that's what I want you to explain to me. Because Carlin doesn't mince words, so it's pretty damn clear what he's saying ... please explain to me where I'm not "getting it."

But even those five minutes are the part where he's actually giving his opinion and not trying to avoid turning people off by saying what actually has to be done.

*shrug - he thinks minimum wage helps poor people and I think he's just factually incorrect on that. A lot of people like Carlin didn't spend too much time thinking out the economic consequences of price floors on labor so I can easily forgive him for making this common mistake. He thinks Social Security could have helped retirees. I think he fails to understand that these measures - MW, SS, unions, etc. - were subverted by the Elites a long time ago and turned to their own purposes.

you think workers shouldn't seize their workplaces, and the profit from running them should instead flow to the elite.

That's what I think?! surprise

I don't know what the short-term solutions are. Seize, don't seize. Violence, don't violence. I don't know but I have my own guesses. Nevertheless, I do know what are some of the long-term problems in the social order that will be corrected sooner or later. A worker owning the fruit of his own labor is also-known-as (wait for it, drum-roll please)....... property! Ownership! Rightful possession! I guess that makes me a drooling, right-wing, neocon Bush-tard.

Government is a tool,

Government is a very vague and ill-defined word that means everything from exterminating Jews to hacking people to death in the African jungle to throwing the homeless in jail for taking a nap on the public sidewalk. If we're going to talk about "tools", I would recommend that we first start defining terms so we have some idea what the hell we're actually talking about.

In the meantime we can do what we can to tax and regulate the elites and slow them up a bit.

But they own and operate the government which administers the taxes and regulations. How can you miss this??

Certainly raising the capital gains tax as high as possible, punishing business owners for obstructing labor organizers, stop jobs from moving overseas and outlawing all commerical media companies and campaign donations would be a start. It's hard to be against the elites and support corporate personhood at the same time.

*shrug - I'm not strongly for or against any of the measures you've mentioned. I think we should look at why jobs are moving overseas rather than simply advocating for more post-hoc interventions.

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Clayton replied on Thu, Jun 14 2012 2:13 AM

Yeah, the forum tried to eat one of mine. Damn.

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