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Anyone else watching RPF self-implode?

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Andrew Cain Posted: Wed, Jun 13 2012 9:00 AM

www.ronpaulforums.com

 

Anyone else watching these guys self-implode in the Hot Topics section? It's kind of funny but kind of pitiful. 

'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael

 

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 9:02 AM

Could you summarize the self-implosion?

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Ron vs Rand

Kokesh vs Hunter

You are betraying the liberty movement!

No you are!

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It reminds me of why I left internet forums not to long ago. So much drama it is ridiculous. People need to relax and get a hobby. I play tennis now. I recommend it to anyone, it's a lot of fun. 

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I thought arguing on forums was their hobby.

 

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I thought arguing on forums was their hobby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1f3Hr03fQ

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John James replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:06 AM

Andrew Cain:
I thought arguing on forums was their hobby.

yeeeah...that is what I said.

 

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"yeeeah...that is what I said."

Dude I am trying to remember how to post youtube videos on this forum. I forgot. 

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Conza88 replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:34 AM
That place stopped being 'worthy' quite a long time ago. Many have matured intellectually.. everyone but the 'power structure' there.
 
Anyway, dropped back in briefly and someone had proposed Rand Paul's section be removed from the forum. I proposed it be put to a vote.
 
In that thread I posted three images of Rand Paul being a sellout.. (which I think I got from these forums actually). I then went on to attack the  "sellout sympathisers" arguments. Re: "Ron Paul delegates sold out to vote for McCain in '08 RNC to get in favor with GOP... look how that ended up."
 
I was quite literally told to "go f$(% myself".  Liberty Eagle, moderator, and apparently 30 years in the movement but someone who hasn't ventured past the John Birch Society view of the world (terribly sad), seconded this.. low & behold.. same old, same old.

You have been banned for the following reason:
No reason was specified.

Date the ban will be lifted: 08-09-2012, 03:00 AM

surprise. Really not a loss, just disappointed I can't defend Rothbard against the bs that is Jack Hunters (Southern Avenger) article. Meh. A lot of supporters have come over to the ancap side there... what the mods do now though [have for a long time] is graveyard everything into the "Political Philosophy" section (anything remotely ancap). Go check out some threads there.. yes.

Please convince me of statism!

Ron Paul & voluntarists

State or Private Law Society? [Ron Paul endorsed author]

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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This is what happens when you have an organization that seeks power in order to weld it instead of an organization that seeks to abolish it. You have these personality wars and cult followings. Who is the best to run what. That is why I like the LvMi. No discussion over who should be the President or VP. No discussion about who should be the marketer for a more humane style of government. It is just "tear it all down." 

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Heather replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:42 AM

The same thing is going on over at the DailyPaul.

A few are flooding the place and claiming that anarchists are the traitors, and one guy said Adam Kokesh is an FBI infiltrator sent to destroy the movement.

It's a mad house!

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:47 AM

I think it's more likely that the few flooders are the infiltrators, but that's just me.

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I've never liked Jack Hunter.  His voice is annoying, he is condescending at times (which is ironic for him), and his principles are based around politics.

I'll let Rand and the "insider-outsiders" do their thing, but I'm not going to hold my breath.  We should not polarize our own movement based on this.  This seems analogous to consubstantiation versus transubstantiation.

If we need an actual revolution Kokesh will be a leader.  Jack will suck his thumb and vote.

I'm sticking with my thesis that Ron Paul (and/or Tate and Benton) was told that the delegates will be arrested if they tried anything at the convention since if Romney supportes started a fight, it would be blamed on Paul.  This is what pushed them onto the "Let's Make a Deal" set.  |Career (Benton/Rand), money (Tate), reputation/legacy (Ron)|.

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John James replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:53 AM

What's ironic is that this is exactly what an enemy of liberty would dream of.

It's seeming like Olson's goal is getting achieved...whether according to his plan or not.

 

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"The same thing is going on over at the DailyPaul. A few are flooding the place and claiming that anarchists are the traitors, and one guy said Adam Kokesh is an FBI infiltrator sent to destroy the movement.It's a mad house!"

Hahah. Anarchists are traitors? What did they force Rand to endorse Romney creating all this drama? I swear some of the delusions that these people concoct like that whole delegate strategy or the infiltration of Paul supporters as Romney delegates or the psychological analysis of Rand when he was giving his endorsement. The delusion that you can work within the system and reform government is slowly unraveling and it would be hilarious to watch if it was not so pitiful. There is a part of me that feels terrible for these people. 

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Conza88 replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:56 AM

Congratulations Rand... Ron builds the movement, where all these differing sects/philosophies are able to join together under the one banner and concentrate predominately on the issues... and with one swift move Rand's actions put it all up in the air [mostly hyperbole].

This in a crystal clear fashion goes on to verify Rothbard's statements... about radicalism being the core issue, not "anarchism" vs. "minarchism". Intellectual pygmies wouldn't get that though. Ron is radical, thus principled.. and why he was able to do what he has done in regards to spreading the message of liberty via also building a movement.

Re: "Hahah. Anarchists are traitors? What did they force Rand to endorse Romney creating all this drama? I swear some of the delusions that these people concoct like that whole delegate strategy or the inflation of Paul supporters as Romney delegates or the psychological analysis of Rand when he was giving his endorsement. The delusion that you can work within the system and reform government is slowly unraveling and it would be hilarious to watch if it was not so pitiful. There is a part of me that feels terrible for these people."

lol. I briefly went through the "miracle hope" phase back in '08... I learnt from that though. Expectations are near non-existent for such a thing, though I don't knock others for trying. I'm wondering though, what the failure of the campaign will mean for some folks? Will it push more towards the philosophy side of things? Towards private law... voluntarism..?

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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"lol. I briefly went through the "miracle hope" phase back in '08... I learnt from that though. Expectations are near non-existent for such a thing, though I don't knock others for trying. I'm wondering though, what the failure of the campaign will mean for some folks? Will it push more towards the philosophy side of things? Towards private law... voluntarism..?"

I am poking at them a little but I'm not being, at least I hope, vicious about it. If it were 08 I would be on there too, waving my Ron Paul shirt. However, I read Lysander Spooner and got over the idea of reform because of it. I hope that people do flock beyond the political party realm. What they do is up to them. As I stated somewhere before, I'm just doing things that I love, waiting for it to all come crashing down. You have to be happy. 

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John James replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 11:38 AM

Aristophanes:
Jack will suck his thumb and vote.

 

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I am always fascinated when I discover personality wars like these events going on in the RP campaign. Honestly, I am usually slow to pick up on them in real life which sucks because I like learning juicy gossip. 

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Kakugo replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 12:18 PM

"Little men and great causes go ill together" Jawaharlal Nehru

"Liberators do not exist: the people liberate themselves" Ernesto "Che" Guevara

One of them was a fully-blown statist, the other a wannabe tyrant but both were right on the money.

Together we go unsung... together we go down with our people
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Wheylous replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 12:32 PM

Link, Heather?

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""Little men and great causes go ill together" Jawaharlal Nehru

 "Liberators do not exist: the people liberate themselves" Ernesto "Che" Guevara 

One of them was a fully-blown statist, the other a wannabe tyrant but both were right on the money."

 

I don't put much stock in bumper quotes. I mean sure they are nice for signatures but beyond that it is better just to put what you think in your own words. Also I would not call Nehru a "full-blown statist." He was a social democrat. Really this whole "You're a statist" business is somewhat petty. He had a philosophy that he followed, use that term because it A.) seems less petty B.) shows you are at least informed about the matter. It can also indirectly or directly encourage people who do not know the term to look it up thereby increasing their knowledge.

Anyways I will stop being a nitpicking a-hole. 

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 12:41 PM

Aren't social democrats statists though? cheeky

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"Aren't social democrats statists though? cheeky"

No they are social democrats! Social democrats are social democrats!indecision

This is super cereal because correct language usage is grounded in rational thought which is grounded in human nature. Therefore incorrect language usage is anti-human thus immoral! So sayeth Ryan Sorba!

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 12:47 PM

Sorry, you confused me. Try again?

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"Sorry, you confused me. Try again?

Listen I could go from beginning to end about the history of social democrats, but I don't have enough time to get into it. It's not what people want to hear, they won't understand it or they will get lost. Let me just say that language offenders are immoral and we can't let them have an identity because then we are conceding the debate. So sayth Ryan Sorba!

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 12:52 PM

I'm sorry but I still don't understand your point. In fact, I'm not even sure if you're being serious here or not.

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"I'm sorry but I still don't understand your point. In fact, I'm not even sure if you're being serious here or not."

No I am not being serious hence why I am talking about Ryan Sorba who is a joke. What I am saying though (semi-seriously) is that my perspective is that people should use the actual philosophical titles that people practice instead of just saying "statist." People are probably just going to metaphorically flip me off and say "I want to use statist" but at least they  read my perspective. 

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 12:58 PM

Oh no, I understand your perspective. All social democrats are statists, but not all statists are social democrats. Depending on the context, it might be useful to distinguish different types of statists. Does that make sense? smiley

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CrazyCoot replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 1:00 PM

To be fair to Jack Hunter he's always been honest about where he stands.  He's repeatedly said that he's not an anarchist, minarchist, or even a classical liberal. He's a conservative.  And frankly he's done a decent job of promoting some ideas to a conservative audience, including foreign policy issues. 

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Oh no, I understand your perspective. All social democrats are statists, but not all statists are social democrats. Depending on the context, it might be useful to distinguish different types of statists. Does that make sense? smiley

 

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 1:06 PM

I'm not trolling, I assure you.

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"To be fair to Jack Hunter he's always been honest about where he stands.  He's repeatedly said that he's not an anarchist, minarchist, or even a classical liberal. He's a conservative.  And frankly he's done a decent job of promoting some ideas to a conservative audience, including foreign policy issues. "

Well conservative in what sense? Old Right conservatives were classical liberals in many respects. Hunter seems to care a great deal about social conservatism...but I have yet to hear anything of his views and him not simply shilling for Ron Paul. 

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 1:17 PM

From what I understand, Jack Hunter does (somewhat?) support states' rights. But that's not necessarily a libertarian cause.

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Andrew Cain:

www.ronpaulforums.com

 

Anyone else watching these guys self-implode in the Hot Topics section? It's kind of funny but kind of pitiful. 

 

Where's the Hot Topics section? Do I need to be a member?

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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"From what I understand, Jack Hunter does (somewhat?) support states' rights. But that's not necessarily a libertarian cause."

Right, being for states rights does not necessarily make you libertarian or even a prononent of liberty. Moving power bases to numerous locations instead of one location does not mean...well anything really, other then the fact you want it dispered instead of concentrated. Are there any people here who are up on Jack Hunter's beliefs?

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"Where's the Hot Topics section? Do I need to be a member?"

The "Other" portion of the forums under Misc. Discussion and yes you need to be a member. To be a member you must:

A.) Bath in the the blood of a virgin 

Or

B.) Show unyelding support to the Paul family.

 

It's a tough choice. 

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Conza88:
[...] I was quite literally told to "go f$(% myself".  Liberty Eagle, moderator, and apparently 30 years in the movement but someone who hasn't ventured past the John Birch Society view of the world (terribly sad), seconded this.. low & behold.. same old, same old. [...]

Lol. Oh, but she'll never be castigated for attacking others.

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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Autolykos replied on Wed, Jun 13 2012 1:28 PM

Well sure, she can be castigated for attacking others. But I imagine she'll ban people who do that in "her" forum. People are free to be hypocrites on their own property (or property they're managing) as long as they don't violate others' property rights.

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Andrew Cain:

This is what happens when you have an organization that seeks power in order to weld it instead of an organization that seeks to abolish it. You have these personality wars and cult followings. Who is the best to run what. That is why I like the LvMi. No discussion over who should be the President or VP. No discussion about who should be the marketer for a more humane style of government. It is just "tear it all down." 

That's because they're more pro minarchy than anti state. (Which is why they purged the ancaps, especially the Rothbardians, a few years ago.)

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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