I don't know that anyone else will find this interesting. But I just wanted to throw out some thoughts.
The overwhelming majority of the posters here seem to keep a spirit of intellectual humility and are passionate about discussing the meaning of the ideas and the impact that they can have. This is valuable to me. For the most part, the conversations here seem to have seeking wisdom as their focus, though there is the occasional eruption of personality conflict.
In our conversations here each of us has an opportunity to become both teacher and student. Even the most novice thinker in these fora, can ask a question in a unique and interesting way, or make an observation that seems tangential and yet isn't, and in doing so may open up a new vista or avenue for discussion and growth.
I've been involved over the years with people and communities where there were dominant personalities who would shout down or attack individuals who asked questions that they deemed to be "stupid" or asked questions that seemed to challenge the "status quo". IMO it's unhealthy, and historically I've moved on, not because I necessarily disagreed with the core of thought, but because it crushes the very spirit of innovation, creativity, and curiosity that is, IMO the very engine of creation for mankind.
So, I say this because the community here seems to have a relatively long history, I'd never joined it, though I've been a consumer of the mises site for many years, as well as lewrockwell and others. Anyone remember the ender's review mailing list? And for it to be as healthy, in terms of discussion, as it is for this long is quite frankly amazing. What exists here is quite rare, in my experience. Perhaps a marxist or a statist, might not find it to be this way, but I doubt it.
Anyway, the discussions provide the opportunity for me to roll ideas around in my head I've been thinking about and engaged with for many years in new and interesting ways. Playing with and regurgitating and reanlyzing these ideas helps me to seat them more firmly, to understand the logical support and to figure out ways to integrate different thoughts in new and interesting ways. I'm not simply here to read others ideas, I'm also here to talk about and modify my own. Whether or not the things I have to say are useful or interesting to others is tangential to my primary goal. But it does make me happy when I find that something I've said sparks new and interesting thoughts and analysis in others, I guess that's a second benefit.
I'd be curious to hear what others get from this community, and I mean the discussions, not necessarily the articles on Mises?
Reading the debates between people helps b/c you get both sides of the arguments at once without having to go and read a lengthy book by one person, then going and reading the other. You get the full nugget of info right there. Most people provide links for their sources and so you can go and read the full thought that someone is debating.
BransonBow:Most people provide links for their sources and so you can go and read the full thought that someone is debating.
Gotta remember that not everyone appreciates such link spam though.
These forums are the best that I've ever encountered. They're not perfect, but they're infinitely better than most areas of the internet I've tried to find interesting discussion. Many of the posters here are very well read, intelligent, creative, intellectually respectful and make these forums generally awesome. I also like that whatever our disagreements we can take a joke and are usually respectful, although this is not always the case for myself or anyone else. The quality of discussion which usually goes on here is excellent, and I believe that overall it has improved within the last year, and it often goes far beyond simple economics and political theory, but it is almost always well thought out and applies praxeology and methodological individualism, the keys to anything claiming to be a social science, in a way that is almost wholly ignored within the mainstream and even in many libertarian forums.
With this said I'm afraid that I'm not going to be on much for a while. The quarter is starting up and I want to be fully invested in my work. I wanted to put up a post called "The Ultimate Failure of Government" but I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to finish it in time, I will someday, however.
What I'm trying to say is this: I love you guys. You're the best bunch of anarchists a boy could ask for. I'll be back.
-Neodoxy
I second neodoxy here. The quality of intellectual hunger here is unmatched on the internet. I love the sense of community and to see longtime users cracking jokes on each other. I love that its not heavily moderated and that the mods/admins rarely use their power even when they would be allowed to (great save this afternoon, by the way, mods/admins). Really, nothing is worse than a forum with a lot of potential ruined by mods moving threads and just generally getting in the way like government. I would really like to see a user base two or three times bigger, or more, but I've tried a lot of forums and I always end up back here.
Member since summer 2009 and proud. Thanks to everyone for bringing your character and passion here.
Good, it's not just me.
I guess we'll see you when you get back neodoxy. Don't know why I waited so long to join. I guess I go through political dryspells where I get a bit disheartened. Obama's election really, really disturbed me for economic reasons.
I listened to the Republican speeches tonight, and love to hear some of the classical liberal ideas come through, just wish when the rubber met the road, it would show up in practice.
Of course some of the Republican governors have been doing some good things in balancing budgets, and reducing state level regulations.
But that's a bit off topic.
I'll go ahead and agree with Neo and offer an idea as to why this is...
I think this forum has a unique make-up because it exists in a very specific niche, and therefore appeals to a pretty specific kind of individual. Or at least individuals with specific characteristics.
Obviously it's a topically-focused forum, on a website that is centered around a specific, well-defined ideology and way of understanding the world...one that has quite a small number of adherents relatively. So there's an aspect of community in just the sheer fact that the actual community of people who associate with the philosophy and the economics is small enough, that you feel at least on some level an automatic kinship with pretty much anyone who might find a home here. (Certainly anyone at an LvMI event.)
And then again, I suppose the philosophy is so specific and defined, that anyone who subscribes to it is going to be an automatic ally, at least in the overall sense. I suppose that's one thing that separates voluntarists from...well...everyone else I guess. There really is no debate on anything but the smallest of details. The principles are all the same, and rock solid. Nothing like the kind of differences (often times quite vast) that can exist in a group of "liberals" or "conservatives", or any sort of party grouping. (I guess that's what happens when your reasoning for almost all your beliefs is based in faulty logic, and the lines you draw are essentially arbitrary.)
But even more than all that, I'd like to think it takes a certain kind of understanding to reach the conclusions rested on by adherents to the tenets espoused here. I'm averse to suggest it's a certain kind of intellect, as that makes it sound more innate...but I'd certainly think it takes a definite amount of understanding of logical fundamentals and an honest interest in seeking truth. It is these characteristics that I think lead to the type of relationships and conversations that come about here. I think with those two things, one is able to have discussion about the kind of topics we do without getting emotionally driven. This may be the key to everything. Once you can have an actual discussion, that adheres to basic logic, and the players are mostly interested in gaining a deeper understanding of something, I think the result is the kind of discussion that generally arises here. And from that discussion I think comes the kind of camaraderie we see here.
Bottom line, aside from the obvious fact that people here are pretty much bound to agree on all the big things (especially aggression), I think the characteristics that are essentially required to arrive at these conclusions also lend themselves to having good discussions, and therefore good humor and good relationships.
Human understanding is marvellously enlightened by daily conversation with men, for we are, otherwise, compressed and heaped up in ourselves, and have our sight limited to the length of our own noses. ~Michel de Montaigne
And just for fun...
What do you look like?
I'd like to think it takes a certain kind of understanding to reach the conclusions rested on by adherents to the tenets espoused here.
+1
I think that a genuine, mature tolerance is the inevitable byproduct of really grasping and assenting to classical liberal philosophy. A lot of the defensiveness in political discussion is nothing more than fear of the unknown. The central tenet of Austrian social science - humans act - is the torch in a cave of ignorance. Your fellow man is no longer a dark mystery. The world is no longer haunted by heros and villains. Your peers who make different choices than you do are no longer deluded, insane, reprobate, moronic, negligent or blind. Your fellow man is an open book because he is you. Like you, he acts. He applies means to attain his ends. And however different his ends may be than your own, they are still human. Human. Action.
And then your eyes are opened and you see the light.
Clayton -
Clayton:I'd like to think it takes a certain kind of understanding to reach the conclusions rested on by adherents to the tenets espoused here. +1 I think that a genuine, mature tolerance is the inevitable byproduct of really grasping and assenting to classical liberal philosophy.
I think that a genuine, mature tolerance is the inevitable byproduct of really grasping and assenting to classical liberal philosophy.
This is the chicken/egg thing. My feeling was it it is actually the philosophy that is the byproduct of the "tolerance"...or rather, the tolerance is a prerequisite for arriving at the philosophy.
I think that's why it works out the way it does. Even if you weren't that way to begin with, I think you have to get that way before you are able to arrive at these conclusions...so basically you're pretty much guaranteed that anyone who subscribes to the philosophy is going to hold certain traits...traits that lend themselves to being able to remain rational and reasoned, despite discussing topics which many might find insensitive or even grotesque.
A lot of the defensiveness in political discussion is nothing more than fear of the unknown. The central tenet of Austrian social science - humans act - is the torch in a cave of ignorance. Your fellow man is no longer a dark mystery. The world is no longer haunted by heros and villains. Your peers who make different choices than you do are no longer deluded, insane, reprobate, moronic, negligent or blind. Your fellow man is an open book because he is you. Like you, he acts. He applies means to attain his ends. And however different his ends may be than your own, they are still human. Human. Action.
Yeah, this. Especially the first sentence.
This has been my first real forum and a great circle of friends. As for the value of this community to me, this passage from The Hunger Games really hit home when I read it and hopefully will supplement what I say below it:
When I was younger, I scared my mother to death, the things I would blurt out about District 12, about the people who rule our country, Panem, from the far-off city called the Capitol. Eventually I understood this would only lead us to more trouble. So I learned to hold my tongue and to turn my features into an indifferent mask so that no one could ever read my thoughts. Do my work quietly in school. Make only polite small talk in the public market. Discuss little more than trades in the Hob, which is the black market where I make most of my money. Even at home, where I am less pleasant, I avoid discussing tricky topics. Like the reaping, or food shortages, or the Hunger Games. Prim might begin to repeat my words and then where would we be?
With such a perspective outside the typical paradigm, I feel that I open myself to harsh criticism from those who do not wish to understand what I mean/believe and (not always, but often) prefer to forced laughter, insult me, ignore me, or quote something a radio host said merely to get me to shut up. So I don't start arguments. On politics with those close to me, I stay quiet. If someone asks me my perspective, I answer humbly and to the best of my ability and try to change the conversation. On the other hand, if I can tell that someone is actually interested in the topic, I might linger around it and ask what they think and perhaps question their perspective- this has led to interesting conversations (I just found a buddy who believes that government controlled education is a racket to control the ambitions of hard-working and inventive people; this started as a conversation about religion). A few months ago a buddy caught me reading an article and just started trying to debunk every point made in the article and, since he's into politics (he's liberal), the continuing awkward discussions in the coming weeks regarding politics pretty much sapped away the friendship we had little by little. Before then we never talked about politics. We've hardly talked since then. Because of that little episode, I hide my perspective from friends or family as much as possible (sometimes I can't avoid it, like when someone close directly asks me if I'm voting for Obama or Romney and everything stops until I answer). My family knows I'm libertarian; that's pretty much it.
The Mises Forums allow me to have a place where I am able to think critically, discuss what I think and learn, and open myself to criticism from those who are just interested, if not more so, in the given subject as I am. Coming here allows me an opportunity to "get away" with others who care about the truth. I couldn't help myself from laughing at this post, even though it is clearly intended as an insult, as it helps me make my point: this isn't a community indivduals who blindly recite what is written in a book and pat each other on the back for doing so. Perhaps we've read similiar literature and have similar philosophies, and, sure, agreement about somethings and feuds over other things will happen with such a specific group, but we can still talk about dieting, find solutions to mathematical paradoxes, critique movies and laugh at Paul Krugman. The range of discussion here is just not available with most people I know, from the obscure clarifications on capital theory to the latest news about Ron Paul. I really do have fun here and I'm glad that I've found this community.
If I had a cake and ate it, it can be concluded that I do not have it anymore. HHH
I think that a genuine, mature tolerance is the inevitable byproduct of really grasping and assenting to classical liberal philosophy. A lot of the defensiveness in political discussion is nothing more than fear of the unknown. The central tenet of Austrian social science - humans act - is the torch in a cave of ignorance. Your fellow man is no longer a dark mystery. The world is no longer haunted by heros and villains. Your peers who make different choices than you do are no longer deluded, insane, reprobate, moronic, negligent or blind. Your fellow man is an open book because he is you. Like you, he acts. He applies means to attain his ends. And however different his ends may be than your own, they are still human. Human. Action. And then your eyes are opened and you see the light.
Bingo!
+2 ThatOldGuy
Also, it's funny that you try to avoid political debates with friends and colleagues so as to not antagonize them and keep friendships and not be ridiculed. The reason I avoid political debates with friends and colleagues is for an entirely different reason. They are intellectually boring. I used to love them, but after coming here, there is just no challenge to be had. Others usually just repeat what they have heard elsewhere and rarely offer new insight. Sometimes I act like a chameleon and just throw out one liners to make people think, but I rarely give them enough to figure out what I believe.
Clayton:And then your eyes are opened and you see the light.
gotlucky: Sometimes I act like a chameleon and just throw out one liners to make people think, but I rarely give them enough to figure out what I believe.
Sometimes I act like a chameleon and just throw out one liners to make people think, but I rarely give them enough to figure out what I believe.
Haha, that's so true. Doing more would entail revealing one's "Ron Paulness" and then you're in the box. Where's the fun then?
The Anarch is to the Anarchist what the Monarch is to the Monarchist. -Ernst Jünger
Yeah, if they even suspect you support Ron Paul, that's game. Their mind is even more closed than it was before.
I figure this thread deserves a bump, seeing as the community will soon be split up.
My thoughts echo yours and others here David. Just so you know, I finished my Master's dissertation (earned a distinction on it actually) on Bohm Bawerk's price theory and came up with a very simple agent based model to help illustrate how relative price changes propogate throught an economy with a certain capital and price structure. I recall you expressed an interest in seeing what I'd managed to do in this thread. Message me your email, if you'd like me to send you it.
"When the King is far the people are happy." Chinese proverb
For Alexander Zinoviev and the free market there is a shared delight:
"Where there are problems there is life."
Dave , Neo, and others sum up my thoughts pretty well.
"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann
"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence" - GLS Shackle
also, congrats toabskebabs on his Masters