I think all here know about Hoppe's Argumentation ethics, but I don't know if you are familiar with his teacher's formulation of Discouse ethics.
I personally like to call it Communication, or Justification ethics.
It's interesting how teacher and student take the same framework but have so different conclusions.
Hoppe says that communication implies NAP and private property; but the ethical implications of the notion of performative contradiction, according to Habermas, are individual autonomy, which implies a duty of no imposition of harm (which is much wider then NAP), and power equality (or power neutrality), which implies lack of hierarchy and lack of economic inequality.
IMO, it is more likely that a priori norms of communication imply ('libertarian') socialism then capitalism. The norms that Habermas mentioned seem to more clearly be the correct concepts of a priori norms of communication.
There's two types of people: those who agree with argumentation ethics because it justifies the beliefs they already hold, and those who disagree with arguementation ethics no matter what it claims to justify.
The reason that Habermas and Hoppe reach near opposite conclusions is because discourse ethics can be used to justify almost anything.
they said we would have an unfair fun advantage
Discourse ethics, as Habermas calls it, is just an extension of communicative reality (or communicative rationality) to the sphere of ethics. Communicative reality has within itself e.g. an a priori norm of realism (within the sphere of epistemology or philosophy of perception), that is- you can't argue epistemological relativism (/nihilism) without commiting a performative contradiction. When you argue anything, you perfomatively accept a number of norms, like that you exist, and that so do other people, world, language, etc, etc.
Likewise with communicative ethics. It cannot be said to justify everything, it has some norms, it's a matter of coming to a conclusion of what are the correct definitions of those norms.
When you argue anything, you perfomatively accept a number of norms, like that you exist, and that so do other people, world, language, etc, etc.
Ummm... So when I play a video game, I performatively accept the game world is real? Riiiight...
Of no relevance to whether the world we life in is real or not.
So you expect me to believe that when you "play a video game" you stare at a blank screen and press random buttons?
I never said that.
If the game world isnt real then how could you "play" it?
Not sure, what do you mean by that. The simulator is as real as the rest of real world (which does not mean it is absolutely real), but the world it simulates is, well, just that - simulated. I do not (necessarily) believe the characters have deep feelings or free will just because I engage in conversations with them.
Not sure, what do you mean by that. The simulator is as real as the rest of real world (which does not mean it is absolutely real),
but the world it simulates is, well, just that - simulated.
I do not (necessarily) believe the characters have deep feelings or free will just because I engage in conversations with them.
Ok, gentlemen, I have to admit that our approaches to gaming (and I guess to ontology) are quite different. While I may suspend my disbelief for a better enjoyment of the game, I never have problems separating the simulated world from the "real" one (the one that embeds the simulator). By the same token, I do not see how my fancy to interact with the "real" world proves anything but my mind exist. You may call me a sceptic, I guess. Should we bring up the Matrix, the brain in a vat, and whole Cartesian jazz?
BTW, by "absolutely real" I mean "real as believed into by realists" (as opposed to sceptics).
Ok, gentlemen, I have to admit that our approaches to gaming (and I guess to ontology) are quite different. While I may suspend my disbelief for a better enjoyment of the game, I never have problems separating the simulated world from the "real" one (the one that embeds the simulator).
By the same token, I do not see how my fancy to interact with the "real" world proves anything but my mind exist.
You may call me a sceptic, I guess. Should we bring up the Matrix, the brain in a vat, and whole Cartesian jazz?
I suggest we make this discussion more specific. Pick any statement of the argumentation ethics you would like to defend.
"aggression (initiation of violence or misappropriation of property) cannot be rationally justified byt the aggressor."
I see at least these arguments:
The victim may choose to not accept the logic of the aggressor, but the same applies to any argument in favor of NAP.
BTW, I am not against NAP, I just do not see how it can be "proved" from the undisputable axioms using undisputable laws of inference.
The aggressor rationally proves that he is superior to the victim ("divine right").
The aggressor rationally proves that aggression was for the greater common good ("bleeding heart").
The aggressor rationally proves that allocation to the fittest is justified ("might makes right").
The act of engaging in discourse presupposes a conversation between equals.
I do not see, how one follows from the other.
They would have to define and justify the notion of "the common good."
Easy, one approach is "what is preferred by more people". If two people prefer to take your money, this is justified because it makes two persons happy and only one person unhappy.
If the aggressor is both more fit, and justified, one wonders why they attempted to engage in discourse in the first place.
To make the aggressor feel even better by making the victim "see the light"? Oh, and the argument itself could go like - the more fit person can put the "stolen" resources to a better use, thus reducing waste.
I do not see how any of these arguments is less logical than the arguments for NAP. I think NAP should be marketed on its moral or utilitarian merits, not because it's the only logically sound outlook.
Easy, one approach is "what is preferred by more people".
If two people prefer to take your money, this is justified because it makes two persons happy and only one person unhappy.
To make the aggressor feel even better by making the victim "see the light"?
Oh, and the argument itself could go like - the more fit person can put the "stolen" resources to a better use, thus reducing waste.
I do not see how any of these arguments is less logical than the arguments for NAP.
I think NAP should be marketed on its moral or utilitarian merits, not because it's the only logically sound outlook.
well do you try to negotiate a settlement with a roach before you spray it with roach poison? The only reason you would engage me in conversation is if you, for whatever reason, actually cared about what my responses to you are.
I can well imagine a master indulging in a conversation with his slave, without the master considering himself equal to the slave.
Your willingness to engage me in dialogue reveals a preference for dialogue over violence.
It only demonstrates a preference of both stealing the resource and obtaining a social approval over just stealing the resource. I do not see how this proves that stealing was unjustified.
revealing that the feelings, desires, and even consent of the other party are more significant than the aggressor's simple desire for more stuff
Again, consent of the other party is NOT revealed to be more significant than simple desire for more stuff. What is revealed is preference for both over one.
You must attempt to justify those evaluations, as argumentation ethics is about what claims you can justify...
Sorry, could you point at what point did I subscribed to argumentation ethics?
thats a false dichotomy, as one can do all of the above.
Marketing nonsense as a bullet-proof proof discredits the whole message, thus NAP is better of without appeals to being the only logically sound principle.
Can I therefore say "I have spent a lot of time thinking, and I have decided that humans do not think or decide anything"?
Of course you can, in fact you did. On a serious side, this utterance will just prompt me to understand where exactly the miscommunication happened - maybe two instances of "think" refer to different concepts, or you do not consider yourself a human, or you missed a couple of quantifiers (some/all/always/sometimes).
BTW, so far you didn't attempt to actually prove anything, but instead you invited me to disprove your statement. As I believe you are well aware of, in any sufficiently rich consistent theory there are statements that cannot be decided. Therefore, even if I could not disprove your statement did not mean you could prove it. So I suggest you try and do.
BTW, so far you didn't attempt to actually prove anything, but instead you invited me to disprove your statement. As I believe you are well aware of, in any sufficiently rich consistent theory there are statements that cannot be decided. Therefore, even if I could not disprove your statement did not mean you could prove it. So I suggest you try and do
I think I have sufficiently defended my chosen statement. You asked what claim I wanted to defend, I picked one and you havent cast any doubt on it whatsoever, would you now like to change the terms of the discussion?
I demonstrated some hypothetical arguments justifying aggression. You called them bare assertions. Now I want to turns tables on you - please provide your arguments, and I will call them bare assertions. This will demonstrate how NAPis not anyhow unique.
I demonstrated some hypothetical arguments justifying aggression. You called them bare assertions.
Now I want to turns tables on you - please provide your arguments, and I will call them bare assertions.
This will demonstrate how NAPis not anyhow unique.