The people who want smaller and limited government are in the permanent minority. The Republican Party is toast, too. It's going to be in the permanent minority as well. There's a reason why the Democrats don't secure the border, want amnesty, oppose voter ID laws, buy votes with money, expand the power and scope of the federal government, etc. There's no fixing the U.S. There's no come-from-behind libertarian revolution in the future. It is not possible to make enough converts to stem the tide, much less reverse it. Even though the houses and Oval Office are the same, we are in much worse shape now than we were before this awful election.
Accumulate capital, invest in emerging markets, and reduce your dependence on the dollar so you can leave when the time is right.
"There's no fixing the U.S. There's no come-from-behind libertarian revolution in the future. It is not possible to make enough converts to stem the tide, much less reverse it. Even though the houses and Oval Office are the same, we are in much worse shape now than we were before this awful election."
Why not? And I firmly believe that the Obama winning was better than the alternative for a libertarian future.
I hate to break it to you, but the people who want smaller and limited government have always been in the minority. Maybe with the rise of the internet we have a chance.
WIth death, taxes, regulations, and eventual socialization of the economy?
Cool story bro. Private investment gonna drop like a rock from now on with this new continental peoples democratiK nationalist socialist soviet of the most serene communitarian states of america.
Smack me for i am a pessimist. I doubt its going to get any better.
“Since people are concerned that ‘X’ will not be provided, ‘X’ will naturally be provided by those who are concerned by its absence.""The sweetest of minds can harbor the harshest of men.”
http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.org
gotlucky: I hate to break it to you, but the people who want smaller and limited government have always been in the minority. Maybe with the rise of the internet we have a chance.
Maybe I should rephrase that. The people who want an ever-increasing federal government with the attendant police and welfare states are in the preponderance.
Look at the bright side. You are one of the few people who can see the world for what it is. Use it to your advantage. Exploit the brainless idiots.
How exactly do you want him to do that with papa government preventing him from exploiting the masses?
Neodoxy: "There's no fixing the U.S. There's no come-from-behind libertarian revolution in the future. It is not possible to make enough converts to stem the tide, much less reverse it. Even though the houses and Oval Office are the same, we are in much worse shape now than we were before this awful election." Why not? And I firmly believe that the Obama winning was better than the alternative for a libertarian future.
Sorry for the tactlessness. That's an insane notion. It's an indication of the composition of the U.S.
The battle for hearts and minds was already won by those who favor the State centuries ago. That debate was won, the only question now is what games they decide to play with society's wealth.
The economy may be on the verge of disaster, but if the conspiracists are right, TPTB are smart enough to not unknowingly let the entire structure collapse.
If anything the future will be not like 1984, but more like the movie Brazil with the population and mindset of Brave New World: a third-world economy where we are the bitch, and we love it.
What, that approximately 50 percent of voters support someone advocates government intervention over someone who can't express their ideas and who is perceived as a corporate dog? What would have been revealed if Romney had won?
It is exactly that Obama's policies WON'T WORK. And that things will get worse, and be more associated with big government.
We will see a whole generation that has never known a popular president or government, and has seen leaders from both side of the isle fail time and time again. What more could we hope for to lead to more despair over government? What more could we ask for in an attempt to destroy the two party system than this?
Enter the capitalist class. My suggestion is become a landlord with a longterm goal of becoming a commercial real estate landlord. I have family that has done it, and if you don't have a passion for a certain profession, go for that one. It's my plan to use my profession to become a landlord in a few years. It will take a while to save up for a down payment, but I'm going to do it.
The downside is the amount of regulations even landlords face. But if you are savvy, those regulations are not a problem. Anyway, he doesn't have to be a landlord, there are other ways of becoming a capitalist. I think that's probably the easiest one but it also doesn't have the highest rewards. For most people it could be a good supplementary income.
EDIT: A few years = about 5 years for me.
Although I think it's best for the long run, I feel sorry for the soon-to-retire like my father. Although I really doubt Romney would even make it better in the short run, Obama will definitely make it more difficult for those trying to save for retirement.
You're totally right, schackleford. Just give us all your money and run like the dickens!
Neodoxy: What, that approximately 50 percent of voters support someone advocates government intervention over someone who can't express their ideas and who is perceived as a corporate dog? What would have been revealed if Romney had won? It is exactly that Obama's policies WON'T WORK. And that things will get worse, and be more associated with big government. We will see a whole generation that has never known a popular president or government, and has seen leaders from both side of the isle fail time and time again. What more could we hope for to lead to more despair over government? What more could we ask for in an attempt to destroy the two party system than this?
You're being excessively hopeful. You can only find such a narrative in fiction. The Democrat Party found a way to perpetually replenish their big government leeches.
^ ^ ^ ^
Ah, Wheylous, my fellow exploiter.
just goes to show how womens suffrage was bad bad bad, same with suffrage for blacks. just think how small government could be if just thoese property owning whites voted?
Yeah, just think how small it would be if it were just the PTB.
That will only happen when libertarians get better rhetoric. Let's be honest, libertarian rhetoric is awful and fails utterly at convincing the proles. The upper class Court of Opinion will always win in this regard with the intellectual majority on their side.
The only thing that would change that is if the middle class completely disintegrates.
If TPTB are supposedly that smart and clever, they would never overtly call for some planned economy or total nationalization. I still don't see a 1984 future. Europe would have to turn into that first before the Anglosphere would follow.
"You're being excessively hopeful. You can only find such a narrative in fiction."
That's a statement. Give me a reason.
"The Democrat Party found a way to perpetually replenish their big government leeches."
And how are they going to do that when it's perpetually unsustainable and when they become associated with perpetual suffering?
cab21: just goes to show how womens suffrage was bad bad bad, same with suffrage for blacks. just think how small government could be if just thoese property owning whites voted?
You do realize that there's no prescription in the Constitution for who can vote, right? The amendments only state the conditions that cannot be used as a basis for being ineligible to vote.
cab, you were doing so well...
Neodoxy: "You're being excessively hopeful. You can only find such a narrative in fiction." That's a statement. Give me a reason. "The Democrat Party found a way to perpetually replenish their big government leeches." And how are they going to do that when it's perpetually unsustainable and when they become associated with perpetual suffering?
You're viewing humanity far too kindly and expecting too much sense and reason.
Illegal immigration, amnesty, voter ID laws. People are stupid. These same people who vote straight-ticket Democrat every election are the ones currently living in perpetual suffering and poverty.
"That will only happen when libertarians get better rhetoric. Let's be honest, libertarian rhetoric is awful and fails utterly at convincing the proles. The upper class Court of Opinion will always win in this regard with the intellectual majority on their side."
I'm very surprised to hear someone say this. I feel that libertarian rhetoric is literally the best in the game right now. It's unstoppable, IMO, in terms of the mere power behind it compared to what else it out there. How can you beat rhetoric which consistently places real freedom as a great virtue and which pitches itself against the tyrannical beast of government? It's the consistency of and pride of the rhetoric which really sets it apart, and it's effective.
Lol, Cortes :P
What he meant, I think, was that Libertarian rhetoric isn't flashy or sexy. The laymen want to hear about free shit and abstract feel-goody words, they don't care about the cost or "complicated" economics or principles--Not enough time for Jersey Shore or Honey BooBoo otherwise. Of course, this is what gives libertarian rhetoric its true strength--substance and true reason.
But there is the dreadful fact that so, so many people (as evidenced by the turnout tonight) have no interest in either of these things.
"You're viewing humanity far too kindly and expecting too much sense and reason.
Illegal immigration, amnesty, voter ID laws. People are stupid. These same people who vote straight-ticket Democrat every election are the ones currently living in perpetual suffering and poverty."
If this were the case then we'd have seen people like LBJ running the country for the past five decades. Anyone who is in power is blamed for whatever is happening, and you cannot deny that the masses are getting tired of both parties. OWS and the Tea Party are both real and moderately influential movements, and while we have disagreements with both, they are still representative of what I'm talking about is a definite possibility. Furthermore the electorate consists of more than just complete idiots and people on welfare. To pretend that they are a huge majority is foolish.
This is not based upon an expectation of reason, in fact it's based in large part off of the ability of people to be manipulated by the media and to indiscriminately hate people in office, rather than having the rationality to accept the status quo.
"What he meant, I think, was that Libertarian rhetoric isn't flashy or sexy."
I disagree. I don't see how you could listen to a good Ron Paul speech and not be somewhat infatuated if only by his rhetoric
Maybe if libertarians were not constantly at each others throats we could accomplish something /=
the states chose who could vote, it for the most part white males with property
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:29TBuiXa4kAJ:emoglen.law.columbia.edu/twiki/pub/AmLegalHist/TheEstablishedChurchInSouthCarolina/S.C._Constitution_of_1790.pdf+south+carolina+constitution+1790&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjyntXrPJalfoPUWvH2VaiWpl-p3kvTdXOtIemKNuIqOCBZPYE48BmFM_e_8g-XuAPZnHrFybChknpwDMVXI-emsrwvM8qwUcyVTplBw0BjWYxWKQ1Cp6OcE5ZXg3DdyILGNN7P&sig=AHIEtbQUPp_3jzSx1hFKqRp_TxRdcNkWCw
here is a example of south carolina 1790 consitution
SEC. 4. Every free White man, of the age óf twenty-one years, being :1 citizen of this State, and having resided therein two years previous to the day of election, and who hath it freehold of fifty acres of land or a town lot, of which he. hath been legally Seized and possessed at least Six months before such election, or, not having Such freehold or town lot, hath been a resident in the election dis- trict ín which he offers to give his vote ISix months before the said election, and hath paid a tax the preceding year of three shillings sterling towards the support of this government, shall have zu right to vote for 'fl member or members to serve in either branch of the legislature for the election district in which he holds` such property or is so resident.
^
Youre the one with a picture of a shark.
I wonder if you would have made the same thread had Romney won the election.
Friedmanite: I wonder if you would have made the same thread had Romney won the election.
Probably not. I wrote in Ron Paul. Regardless of what Lew Rockwell says, Obama was not the less-bad choice.
I don't know Neodoxy. I think on some level I agree with you on the raw potential it has, but I do not think it has effectively reached it and will probably never reach it if things stay the way they are.
The two biggest opinion makers that speak in favor of limited government are the Tea Party and Ron Paul.
GOP voters have been bitch-slapped into being subtly ashamed about the Tea Party's existence (as they have been associated with the racist prole meme I will explain below), and also the fact that the Tea Party was coopted out of any potential it may have had from the beginning.
Ron Paul was basically the biggest voice, and he is really not the greatest speaker. He too, was filed away.
Libertarianism is still thought of as fringe because its greatest voices right now are unfortunately totally associated with the fringe.
The subtext is that libertarianism is either a plot by evil capitalist corporatist corporate Illuminati (this is more popular with liberal leaning types and not really used that often in the mainstream) or for dumb white trash (white is important; it must be stressed by the media that libertarianism must inherently be white and racist; a poor minority should never be allowed to relate to it in any form).
The "insane racist prole" label is what is used to cancel out any thought about libertarians.
Simultaneously the mainstream intellectuals, whose job it is to disqualify any libertarian voices from the Court of Public Opinion, can have their cake and eat it too; Libertarians are dumb uneducated nuts who are pawns of the corporations, but also racist dumb uneducated nuts; since the status quo is totally like, pro-poor people, they don't have to face any accusations of upper class elitism since it gets canceled out by the spectre of racism they can use to scare the living shit out of people. It works.
Libertarian intellectuals have yet to remove that stigma placed on them, which is an extremely powerful thought-sanction.
Cortes wins the thread
I say every aspiring Libertarian intellectual attend toastmasters and get to at least Tom Woods level in speech giving.
You're still assuming increased eloquence will have an impact. It would have a marginal impact.
How many Obama supporters on this site have become libertarians?
Cortes,
I think that you're right in what you say but that you're missing the most important fact, and this is that even thought libertarianism might not have "a movement" that's really on fire right now, the ideas do really seem to be taking off and spreading slowly but surely. We've only just begun to see the ripples in the pond caused by Ron Paul's campaigns and I do see libertarianism becoming not only a much easier pill to swallow, but a much more widely discussed topic.
I'm not saying that any of this is certain, but I am extremely hopeful.
What does increased eloquence mean and when did I reference it?
I don't know, I'm not sure how many Obama supporters there have been on this site. I know that TheFinest up there was a social democrat a few months ago and is now a libertarian.
Many liberals (some conservatives too I guess, but not many) also like to try a different angle: libertarians are naive dumb wealthy suburbanites that know nothing about The Real World. Both can't be true, so the dumb racist prole card is used instead.
This is only really effectively disseminated among wealthy liberal suburbanites who are psychologically projecting; the poor, whom they think they totally relate to on some profound level realize how naive they are and mock them, if not totally despise them.
Really? I find the usual stereotype to indeed by middle class white teenager who thinks everything will be okay if the protections that make his life possible are removed... Maybe this just strikes a chord with me... Because that's what I am
Here comes the doom and gloom. The end is nigh! Have a Charleston Chew and go to bed. Wake up tomorrow and realize that you can only control yourself. Live, be happy and try to find some success.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael