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How would you convince a poor person to become libertarian?

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 1:27 PM

You're clearly being dishonest in saying that I suggested she dig ditches. Please show me where I suggested that.

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gotlucky replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 1:34 PM

-As much chance of her becoming a libertarian as of a neo-nazi becoming one (I guess that's the point?)

Nope. It was actually a question. It was also meant to be answered. Either way, some people just aren't interested in being a libertarian.

Have I missed anything?

Yes. There was this post of mine that you have conveniently ignored:

gotlucky:

I can only think of three general approaches to libertarianism:

1) Morality - If the individual in question supports the Golden Rule or something like it, then logically they must be against government.

2) Economics - If the individual in question understands economics, they will be able to see how the state hurts the economy in general.

3) Consequentialism - I see this as more of a combination of the two (with a focus on the consequences, obviously), but maybe others see it differently.

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JimmyJazz:
Have I missed anything?

Add: JimmyJazz to become her savior.

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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limitgov replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 1:45 PM

she could get a group of her family to dress up in uniforms and wear guns and go around town extorting money from people.

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Her level of education will affect the kind of job she can work. Why have her years of formal education proved to insufficient in the competitive job market? That's a good place to start. Non-competitive government schools.

Living in an urban area is often quite dangerous, as well. This, among other things like unnecessary regulations, makes businesses not want to set up shop there, thus reducing opportunity, and reducing supply of goods and services relative to those available in the suburbs, making living there more expensive.

Then go into why it's dangerous there. War on Drugs, hopelessness as a result of a failing education system, families breaking apart, etc.

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JimmyJazz replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 1:53 PM

"Add: JimmyJazz to become her savior."

Please.  I am not going to give her something for nothing. 

Now, if she becomes an escort, or a prostitute in my local brothel, or she offers to sell me some lemonade in the park, then I may consider giving her some money for goods or services rendered.

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 1:55 PM

Well, JimmyJazz? Are you going to show just where I suggested she dig ditches or not?

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gotlucky replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 1:57 PM

JimmyJazz:

Now, if she becomes an escort or a prostitute in a local brothel, or she offers to sell me some lemonade in the park, then I may consider giving her some money for goods or services rendered.

So instead of paying her for services rendered, you might consider paying her for services rendered. And here I thought you were concerned about the plight of this poor woman, but instead you might even steal from her!

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limitgov replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 1:58 PM

"Have I missed anything?"

 

Yes.  She could get her kinfolk to arm themselves and extort money from people.  They can dress in uniforms and show their vitcims signed documents to possibly make them feel a little better.

 

Is your example a Christian?  because if she is, Jesus and the old testament taught us that stealing is wrong.  Plain and simple.

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JimmyJazz:

"Add: JimmyJazz to become her savior."

Please.  I am not going to give her something for nothing. 

Why not? Why do you even care if she becomes libertarian if not for altruistic reasons?

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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JimmyJazz replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:20 PM

"Why do you even care if she becomes libertarian[...]?"

I don't.  I am one of those people who would more or less write off the possibility of a person like her becoming a libertarian.  I'm just wondering if anyone else has a different opinion.

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:22 PM

JimmyJazz:
I'm just wondering if anyone else has a different opinion.

Apparently you're doing more in this thread than just wondering that.

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Is your example a Christian?  because if she is, Jesus and the old testament taught us that stealing is wrong.  Plain and simple.

Are you implying that none of the robbers in uniforms are Christians?

The Voluntaryist Reader - read, comment, post your own.
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cab21 replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:32 PM

she only works 50 hours a week, start her on 140+ to work up a work ethic.

 

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JimmyJazz:

"Why do you even care if she becomes libertarian[...]?"

I don't.  I am one of those people who would more or less write off the possibility of a person like her becoming a libertarian.  I'm just wondering if anyone else has a different opinion.

 

Of course it is possible for her to become libertarian.

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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RagnarD replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:34 PM

While not a black woman I resemble some aspects of the op, being a broke guy working crap jobs making little money (while attempting entrepreneurial ventures).  On facebook I've recently been surprised at how many people in a similar position at crap jobs that I have evidentally inspired to become fairly libertarian. 

I think the most convincing of my standard arguements for lower income people is the fact that individual rights are protection for the poorest of individuals.  The rich can always buy influence, the only protection for the poor is individual rights. Government outside the scope of protecting rights will always be hijacked by powerful interests against the powerless.

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:35 PM

Daniel Muffinburg:
Of course it is possible for her to become libertarian.

Apparently "left-of-center guy" JimmyJazz doesn't even think it's possible for her to lift herself and her son out of poverty.

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FDR reference?

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JimmyJazz replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:42 PM

"Apparently "left of center guy" JimmyJazz [...]"

ad hominem attack.

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:44 PM

Oh and you haven't made any ad-hominem attacks already? That's rich.

Maybe I'll go ahead and report every single post you've made in this thread, including the OP, for trolling. I think there's at least one moderator who would agree with that assessment.

By the way, I actually wasn't making an ad-hominem attack. Anyone who looks at your posting history will see that you called yourself a "left-of-center guy" not too long ago.

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limitgov replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:45 PM

"Are you implying that none of the robbers in uniforms are Christians?"

No.

But if they are Christians, they are not following the teachings of God if they support government. 

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gotlucky replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:46 PM

JimmyJazz:

I don't.  I am one of those people who would more or less write off the possibility of a person like her becoming a libertarian.  I'm just wondering if anyone else has a different opinion.

Autolykos:

Apparently "left of center guy" JimmyJazz doesn't even think it's possible for her to lift herself and her son out of poverty.

JimmyJazz:

ad hominem attack.

In no way was that an ad hominem.

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JimmyJazz replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:47 PM

It is too an ad hominem, Guilt by association subtype, according to your own source.  And you've just committed another fallacy (I'll let you figure out which one) with that post.

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gotlucky replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:49 PM

I also have half a mind to report you for trolling.

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 2:50 PM

JimmyJazz:
It is too an ad hominem,

Right, because you say so, it must be true! How could we have forgotten that? Silly us.

JimmyJazz:
and you've just committed another fallacy (I'll let you figure out which one) with that post.

What affect do you expect this to have on GotLucky - or anyone else, for that matter?

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gotlucky replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:03 PM

To anyone interested, this is a post by JimmyJazz from another thread:

JimmyJazz:

 

I am a left-of-center guy, but I'd ally with Ron Paul on foreign policy so fast it'd make your head spin.  He's one of the only people I know of in the federal government who has a record of *consistent* opposition to U.S. interventionism and playing World Cop.  When I saw him in a presidential debate talking about how Iranian 'aggression' is largely traceable to the U.S.-led 1953 coup against Mossadegh, I knew he was the real deal on foreign policy.  Contrast that to some of the most left-leaning members of congress, like Bernie Sanders, who calls himself a socialist, but voted for 'humanitarian' (!) bombing of Kosovo in the 1990s.

 

Anyway, here's my question: I am well plugged-in to the leftist anti-interventionist and anti-imperialist web sources, but I'd like to get more plugged-in to those coming from the libertarian side.  I already read antiwar.com, which spans the right-left divide.  Can anyone recommend some libertarian sites/blogs/fora which are consistently critical of and firmly stand against the "interventionist consensus" of the political mainstream?

So apparently it's an ad hominem to quote someone. Cute.

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JimmyJazz replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:05 PM

It's not my problem if you don't understand logic and logical fallacies.

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:05 PM

Oops, I forgot the hyphens - let me correct that real quick.

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JimmyJazz replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:06 PM

Hey gotlucky, can you tell me what an ad hominem attack is?

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gotlucky replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:07 PM

Lmao. You cannot accuse Autolykos of falsely calling you as left of center if you have already claimed you are.

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:07 PM

JimmyJazz:
Hey gotlucky, can you tell me what an ad hominem attack is?

Didn't he already do that by linking to the Wikipedia article about it? Or did you happen to miss that?

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JimmyJazz replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:08 PM

Guilt by association

This form of the argument is as follows:

  1. Source S makes claim C.
  2. Group G, which is currently viewed negatively by the recipient, also makes claim C.
  3. Therefore, source S is viewed by the recipient of the claim as associated to the group G and inherits how negatively viewed it is.
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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:08 PM

gotlucky:
Lmao. You cannot accuse Autolykos of falsely calling you as left of center if you have already claimed you are.

Indeed. And my intention was in no way to attack - it was to dispel any notion that JimmyJazz is a libertarian.

I did attack you, JimmyJazz, in calling you dishonest. I continue to make that accusation.

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Oh man - how did this thread end up as a war over definitions?

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JimmyJazz replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:10 PM

"And my intention was in no way to attack - it was to dispel any notion that JimmyJazz is a libertarian."

Doubtful.  Your TRUE intention was to discredit anything I have said in this thread based on a four word phrase I said about myself in a past thread.  Shame on you.

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gotlucky replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:10 PM

It's not.

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It seems to me that it is, or that's a part of it at least.

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gotlucky replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:11 PM

Who is defining what?

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Autolykos replied on Thu, Nov 15 2012 3:12 PM

JimmyJazz:
Doubtful.

You're free to not believe me. But if you don't, then that's your problem.

JimmyJazz:
Your TRUE intention was to discredit anything I have said in this thread based on a four word phrase I said about myself in a past thread.

... Please go right ahead and back that up.

JimmyJazz:
Shame on you.

Too bad I don't feel ashamed.

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JimmyJazz is posting stuff that he's found on the internet about what an ad hominem is, and so forth.

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