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Gary North, Ron Paul curriculum, and The Skeptical Libertarian blog

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Why am I not surprised you'd find a 71 year-old man who looks to weigh 90 lbs, threatening...

so, the words that come from his mouth and fingers are innocuous as long as they are presented in a way that is non-threatening?  Where have I seen that formula before...?

Besides, old people can ce3rtainly look menacing.  Have you seen Star Wars?

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So from "beaten to death by this man", to "words", to... Star Wars. Keep typing.

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Hairnet replied on Thu, Apr 11 2013 2:13 AM

@Malachi 

   David Bier is advocating global cooperation and technological advancement.  

   Mankind's worst enemy is clearly disease, and that was clearly what he was talking about. 

    Maybe your post was satire but it was very dishonest otherwise. 

 @everyone

  How is it that North is acceptable?

 @HabbaBabba 

  On a more serious note, Influential old white men are actually really good at getting people killed.  

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 @everyone

  How is it that North is acceptable?

What I am saying.

 

So from "beaten to death by this man", to "words", to... Star Wars. Keep typing.

ha!  douche. sticking up for a religious nut. and somehow his "words" that he has written don't matter as he tries to start an online school.  You've got it good for this guy dontz U?

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@jfrega : Thank you for taking the time to clearly articulate many of my own thoughts concerning Gary North. 

As for "libertarian"  religious beliefs in general [including Mr. Norths as I understand them],  to this day I do not understand the proud identification of certain, other "big name libertarians", for example Lew Rockwell and Thomas Woods, with an obvious " top down", centralized  [and state approved to boot] organization like the Roman Catholic church. On the face of it, ideologically, this seems like a huge contradiction to me, but maybe I'm missing something? 

regards, onebornfree

For more information about onebornfree, please see profile.[ i.e. click on forum name "onebornfree"].

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SoNowThen replied on Thu, Apr 11 2013 3:20 PM

Aristophanes:

Doesn't his circle include some young programmer/designer who could help spruce it up a bit, to maybe expand the appeal beyond the already preached-to choir?

What young person do you know that wouldn't have been beaten to death by this man according to his religious aesthetics?

Lots, actually.

Also, since the site content focuses on some good stuff I would assume that the supposed young person who shared at least those goals would have no problem collaborating on it. I collaborate on projects with statists all the time, and they want me stolen from and enlsaved for half of the things I do.

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fakename replied on Thu, Apr 11 2013 4:11 PM

The Catholic Church is not any more or less state approved than any corporation etc.?

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The Catholic Church is not any more or less state approved than any corporation etc.?

Corporations exist because states codify them into existence.  The Catholic Churches have 501c tax exemption, that is state approval - it is an incentive to form into one.

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Malachi replied on Thu, Apr 11 2013 4:51 PM

   David Bier is advocating global cooperation and technological advancement.  

and some other things besides, but you are free to ignore that.

Mankind's worst enemy is clearly disease, and that was clearly what he was talking about.

"worst" is a comparative adjective and necessarily subjective. typing the word "disease" would have been more clear and straightforward, but the blog post was clearly intended to be ambiguous. 

Maybe your post was satire but it was very dishonest otherwise.

please explain what is dishonest about identifying suspiciously ambiguous statements in a blog post. 

Keep the faith, Strannix. -Casey Ryback, Under Siege (Steven Seagal)
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I have a man crush on Jargon in this thread, good stuff Jargon

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

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Hairnet:
David Bier is advocating global cooperation and technological advancement.

Sounds a bit more like religious worship to me, particularly the credulous worship of science.

Hairnet:
Mankind's worst enemy is clearly disease, and that was clearly what he was talking about.

Then clearly you neither you nor him know what you're talking about.  Disease is not mankind's worst enemy.  Disease has been wiped out in several of the poorest corners of the earth without any similar increase in those peoples' economic freedom, and do you know what happened?  Their population increased without any good ways to support it, so instead of 1,000,000 people dying of disease, we can have 5,000,000 dying of starvation.  What a trade-off!

Hairnet:
How is it that North is acceptable?

You see, libertarians (and their fellow travelers) who have been around the way have these strange habits, like reading, listening, and thinking for themselves.  They've learned to develop and trust their own intellect.  So how do you suppose those folks, who have put in their time and done their homework, are going to react to this new breed of libertarians who apparently need to be led around on a leash by an opinion-maker?  Libertarians who reek of a dishonesty they can't even comprehend due to their ignorance, yet have the audacity to tell more knowledgeable people what their opinions should be?

People here, and on Facebook, and in many other corners of the interwebz have explained why they like Gary North (or at the very least are indifferent to him) and why he has been a valuable member of the liberty movement, based on their experience with his various contributions.  But you and those like you are incapable of hearing them.  The conspiracy debunkers have sold themselves on a conspiracy, and no logical explanation will do.  So let me explain this to you in a way you and the other libertarian cool kids can understand:  How is it that North is acceptable?  Because fuck you, that's why.

Hairnet:
On a more serious note, Influential old white men are actually really good at getting people killed.

Yes, because I wake up in a cold sweat every night fearing the day Gary North shows up at my door to deliver me my Christian Reconstructionist day of reckoning.  Is this really your life?  Obama and the federal government have militiarized every local police force and opened up the door to drone killing on our own soil and you're worried about Gary North?

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People who can think for themselves are fine, but believe it or not, there are those out there that "fall for" libertarianism without thinking for themselves.  They will drag the thinkers down in the stature that thinkers operate in.  Ayn Rand's association in the liberty movement today is an example, as is Gary North.  The marginalization of the movement is wrought by its own hand when it finds such easily polarized public figures to invest faith in.

The fact is, the dude wrote that ridiculous shit when he was younger and it is now being used to polarize him in the public eye.  No, fucking, shit?  Thinking for yourself will not stop other people from judging things.  And while we might not care about people judging others they will use their consensus against the liberty movement using their nonthinking opinions.

So, continue to put your religious ideologues on the front page of the recruitment pamphlets for a political philosophy.  It only gives us more to defend.

So let me explain this to you in a way you and the other libertarian cool kids can understand:  How is it that North is acceptable?  Because fuck you, that's why.

heh.  No wonder libertarians are marginalized; because, "Fuck you," that's why...

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Bert replied on Thu, Apr 11 2013 10:56 PM

I'm sort of lost in the point of this thread now.  Do we have people defending Gary North?  I wouldn't be surprised if one retorted with "because NAP" as some sort of libertarian scapegoat.

Personally I don't have any interest in the "big names" of libertarianism anymore (Rockwell, Woods, Hoppe, etc.) and I find it strange that there's such a reactionary response to people who are willing to call out said individuals for fringe/offensive statementes and/or not promote/affiliate with them.  If a libertarian said something racist, xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, etc., then instead of making up excuses I'll simply move on, and not try to defend them because of "all they did for liberty."

There's a rising group of individuals, who despite what slander comes out of this forum, are actively engaged in politics as well as running a decent blog that's causing people to question their own stances.  Is there a problem?

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Malachi replied on Thu, Apr 11 2013 11:07 PM

I dont know, do you consider discussion to be a symptom of a problem? 

Keep the faith, Strannix. -Casey Ryback, Under Siege (Steven Seagal)
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"Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."

― Rumi

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Do we have people defending Gary North? 

No, nor are many people (including myself) concerned with the people you mentioned or NAP.  Gary North in this case is a "widget" to attack the people who wrote the article.

Drop your pet "culture war" issues - turn them to widgets, and read what is being criticized

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

"When A Man Dies A World Goes Out of Existence"  - GLS Shackle

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Bert replied on Fri, Apr 12 2013 12:36 PM

Well what exactly is being said?  Either libertarians have a problem with TSL for whatever reason, or people find their critiques on culturally right libertarians unsettling, because they know they might be right.  IDK if it seems a bit odd to anyone that AltRight Radio has interviewed Thomas Woods and Bob Murphy, which is run by Richard Spencer who's addressed Hoppe's Property and Freedom Society conference.  AltRight also getting praise by Greg Johnson of The Occidental Quarterly, a racialist journal, for bringing forth intellectual issues like "race realism" and "White Nationalism."  Then you have Ron Paul's name put forth on some home school curriculum based on biblical ideas written by a known Christian Reconstructionist.

Instead, we'll ignore culturally right currents that certain libertarian scholars hold because NAP, and then we'll ignore rape culture as well because NAP - but rape culture is stupid and we'll defend neo-confederates.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Marko replied on Fri, Apr 12 2013 12:55 PM

Then clearly you neither you nor him know what you're talking about.  Disease is not mankind's worst enemy.  Disease has been wiped out in several of the poorest corners of the earth without any similar increase in those peoples' economic freedom, and do you know what happened?  Their population increased without any good ways to support it, so instead of 1,000,000 people dying of disease, we can have 5,000,000 dying of starvation.  What a trade-off!


Well what exactly is being said?  Either libertarians have a problem with TSL for whatever reason, or people find their critiques on culturally right libertarians unsettling, because they know they might be right.  IDK if it seems a bit odd to anyone that AltRight Radio has interviewed Thomas Woods and Bob Murphy, which is run by Richard Spencer who's addressed Hoppe's Property and Freedom Society conference.  AltRight also getting praise by Greg Johnson of The Occidental Quarterly, a racialist journal, for bringing forth intellectual issues like "race realism" and "White Nationalism."  Then you have Ron Paul's name put forth on some home school curriculum based on biblical ideas written by a known Christian Reconstructionist.

Instead, we'll ignore culturally right currents that certain libertarian scholars hold because NAP, and then we'll ignore rape culture as well because NAP - but rape culture is stupid and we'll defend neo-confederates.



What is this? Have I unknowingly walked into the Stupidest Post Competition thread?

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Well what exactly is being said?

That the entire paradigms, orientation, and framework in which a progressive (and to a lesser, or at least more irrelevant a degree, a conservative) is bogus and has to be scraped for a different model.  If I am "for helping the poor" - it simply is not saying the same thing as a lefty. None of these issues the way they are framed are going to be compatible with the market process mentality, and any attempt to conform to them is probably going to be self defeating.

A lot of people have crazy ideas (Issac Newton) - however when they say something intelligible within their respected field, so be it, there is no need to disown them. Frankly, there are a lot of kooky people floating around in all types of politicl circles - most people don't (Ex: Marxists) see a need to apologize for these fringe elements in a culture:  they are either a) societal aesthetics (so who cares), which in most cases are probably not going to go anywhere or b)some type of theory that can be disproven, varified, or falsified in some way.  If that is the case than disprove the theory on the terms provided - don't bitch about the fact that you don't like it and be a hater or a quizling to the cool kids.

Moreover, you can have whatever aesthetics on issues you like, and talk about them all day - I just don't see how it can lead to much in a productive talk about any intelligible structure of society - outside of Machivallian ways to organize and manipulate machinary to get whatever random aesthetic you wished achieved at the moment (not that there is anything wrong with this, it is just out of scope for what is being asked for in the conversation).

"As in a kaleidoscope, the constellation of forces operating in the system as a whole is ever changing." - Ludwig Lachmann

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SoNowThen replied on Fri, Apr 12 2013 1:56 PM

Bert:

Well what exactly is being said?  Either libertarians have a problem with TSL for whatever reason, or people find their critiques on culturally right libertarians unsettling, because they know they might be right.  IDK if it seems a bit odd to anyone that AltRight Radio has interviewed Thomas Woods and Bob Murphy, which is run by Richard Spencer who's addressed Hoppe's Property and Freedom Society conference.  AltRight also getting praise by Greg Johnson of The Occidental Quarterly, a racialist journal, for bringing forth intellectual issues like "race realism" and "White Nationalism."  Then you have Ron Paul's name put forth on some home school curriculum based on biblical ideas written by a known Christian Reconstructionist.

Instead, we'll ignore culturally right currents that certain libertarian scholars hold because NAP, and then we'll ignore rape culture as well because NAP - but rape culture is stupid and we'll defend neo-confederates.

You'd have to be more specific about what you call "culturally right currents", but please realize that some of us appreciate, rather than ignore, them. How is holding a cultural/aesthetic preference and self-segregating along those lines not compatible with libertarianism/anarchy/austrian-economics?

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Malachi replied on Fri, Apr 12 2013 4:08 PM

Well what exactly is being said?  Either libertarians have a problem with TSL for whatever reason, or people find their critiques on culturally right libertarians unsettling, because they know they might be right.

or perhaps people are reading and responding to tsl and each other because thats how people discuss things on the internet and there isnt a problem. why do you feel the need to passively-aggress against dissenting opinions by setting up these strawmen? is it because youre not able to respond directly to what is being said? some libertarians might have a problem with tsl for stated reasons, and perhaps other libertarians could respond to them, and we could all learn from each other. is there a problem? perhaps people find their critiques (on whatever) unsettling, and are here discussing it. whether they "know they might be right" or not, is there somehow a problem with discussing these ideas? it seems like there would be more of a problem with dismissal without discussion.

IDK if it seems a bit odd to anyone that AltRight Radio has interviewed Thomas Woods and Bob Murphy, which is run by Richard Spencer who's addressed Hoppe's Property and Freedom Society conference.  AltRight also getting praise by Greg Johnson of The Occidental Quarterly, a racialist journal, for bringing forth intellectual issues like "race realism" and "White Nationalism."  Then you have Ron Paul's name put forth on some home school curriculum based on biblical ideas written by a known Christian Reconstructionist.

do you have any thoughts on these items that you might want to share?

Instead, we'll ignore culturally right currents that certain libertarian scholars hold because NAP, and then we'll ignore rape culture as well because NAP - but rape culture is stupid and we'll defend neo-confederates.

who is ignoring it? why does everyone have to be in ideological lockstep with you, a priori of any discussion? your statement on rape culture have been found wanting. you declined to answer critical enquiry on that subject, so you have no standing to act as though people arent willing to discuss it. as for application of the term "neo-confederates" I thought you were above such things, but you sound more and more like a spokesperson for SPLC, especially in light of your recent descent into religious intolerance.

Keep the faith, Strannix. -Casey Ryback, Under Siege (Steven Seagal)
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Hairnet replied on Sun, Apr 21 2013 3:05 AM

myhumangetsme:

 

Hairnet:
Mankind's worst enemy is clearly disease, and that was clearly what he was talking about.

Then clearly you neither you nor him know what you're talking about.  Disease is not mankind's worst enemy.  Disease has been wiped out in several of the poorest corners of the earth without any similar increase in those peoples' economic freedom, and do you know what happened?  Their population increased without any good ways to support it, so instead of 1,000,000 people dying of disease, we can have 5,000,000 dying of starvation.  What a trade-off!

Hairnet:
How is it that North is acceptable?

Malachi was activelly misinterpereting someone's words. I was pointing to the reasonable interperetation of his words.  I really don't care what importance you place on disease control. 

You see, libertarians (and their fellow travelers) who have been around the way have these strange habits, like reading, listening, and thinking for themselves.  They've learned to develop and trust their own intellect.  So how do you suppose those folks, who have put in their time and done their homework, are going to react to this new breed of libertarians who apparently need to be led around on a leash by an opinion-maker?  Libertarians who reek of a dishonesty they can't even comprehend due to their ignorance, yet have the audacity to tell more knowledgeable people what their opinions should be?

People here, and on Facebook, and in many other corners of the interwebz have explained why they like Gary North (or at the very least are indifferent to him) and why he has been a valuable member of the liberty movement, based on their experience with his various contributions.  But you and those like you are incapable of hearing them.  The conspiracy debunkers have sold themselves on a conspiracy, and no logical explanation will do.  So let me explain this to you in a way you and the other libertarian cool kids can understand:  How is it that North is acceptable?  Because fuck you, that's why.

I asked why he was acceptible, and you haven't replied with an answer yet.  The vast majority of stuff you are talking about is completely irrelevant to my posts. 

Hairnet:
On a more serious note, Influential old white men are actually really good at getting people killed.

Yes, because I wake up in a cold sweat every night fearing the day Gary North shows up at my door to deliver me my Christian Reconstructionist day of reckoning.  Is this really your life?  Obama and the federal government have militiarized every local police force and opened up the door to drone killing on our own soil and you're worried about Gary North?

I never said that Gary North was influential. Once again everything you are saying is completely irrelevant to my post. 

 

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Malachi replied on Sun, Apr 21 2013 9:39 AM

Malachi was activelly misinterpereting someone's words. I was pointing to the reasonable interperetation of his words.  I really don't care what importance you place on disease control. 

actually the post was deliberately written to be ambiguous and I deliberately identified the most relevant ambiguities. you need to work on your reading comprehension if you think theres only one valid interpretation of statements like those I identified.

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Hairnet replied on Sun, Apr 21 2013 1:26 PM

Malachi:

I believe in a world where we can reduce or exterminate mankind’s worst enemies through the single greatest medical innovation in history: vaccination.

I would love to know who Bier considers to be "mankinds worst enemies". 

Lets clarify this vague statment for you. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination

 

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Hairnet replied on Mon, Apr 22 2013 4:17 PM

That is a nice set of irrelevant links. 

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Malachi replied on Mon, Apr 22 2013 4:27 PM

how exactly do you find those links to be irrelevant?

oh thats right, denial. oh well, at least I made my point, even if you dont want to get it, others will.

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Hairnet replied on Mon, Apr 22 2013 6:18 PM

You haven't stated at all how they are relevant. 

None of those articles have anything to do with TSL's statements (or your paranoid and dishonest take on them) . 

 

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Malachi replied on Mon, Apr 22 2013 9:37 PM

You haven't stated at all how they are relevant.

well perhaps they are relevant because they address vaccines. perhaps that would be obvious to anyone who has read, let alone participated in this little back-and-forth we just had. perhaps you should do more reading and less typing.

None of those articles have anything to do with TSL's statements (or your paranoid and dishonest take on them) .

you still havent explained why you think I am being dishonest. if the relevance escaped you, perhaps you could ask instead of playing snarkapotamous and being difficult. 

you seem to feel that, despite the literal ambiguity, there is only one valid interpretation of bier's statement on vaccines. perhaps that is merely a symptom of your ignorance and you would do well to educate yourself, perhaps even by clicking on those links I posted and reading the webpages that result.

Keep the faith, Strannix. -Casey Ryback, Under Siege (Steven Seagal)
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Malachi replied on Sat, Apr 27 2013 3:08 PM
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Marko replied on Thu, May 2 2013 12:22 AM

I voiced a similar argument when someone here thought it was a good idea to create a Reddit for the sole purpose of documenting every time a libertarian said something that could be perceived as "not nice." 

It is in that realm that I think you have a point.  But here, with lunatics like North, they kind of need to be called out before someone else does.  As I said, they exist whether you like it or not, so the only thing you can do is acknowledge them as quickly and as loudly as possible, and make it known as best you can that you do not endorse or even entertain their idiocy, nor do you even identify with what they claim to represent  i.e. Guys like North do not represent libertarianism.



I think there is a difference. If you want to have a wall of shame kind of thing onto which you are going to pin offenders, so as to advertise that you had an emotional reaction upon reading their stuff, then that is pathetic. But if you are going to do something to try and counter what they have writen and point out the wrongs in it then that is another thing.

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