The insanity of the state (especially in the slavery of public "education") never shocks me anymore.
I was discussing public schools with a public school teacher. She spoke glowingly of the policy at her school: One-way hallways. This means that children must march down the hallways in only one direction, straight ahead. Each hallway has big arrows that tell the children the only available direction that they must walk. If they go too far, they must make a complete loop around the school in order to visit their locker if they passed it the first time. Any child caught turning around, back-peddling, stopping or stalling is issued a detention slip or worse if they keep it up. I asked her if she was familiar with communist, fascist and statist regimes and she laughed and said "I know what you mean, but we can't have the kids just walking wherever they want."
Oh, wow... Thoughts?
“We ought to obey God rather than men.” -Acts 5:29.
"Slaves before God, free before all others." -Boer Motto.
SouthernHero:Thoughts?
Thoughts?
What makes you believe that "thought" has anything to do with public school?
Their only concern is control.
Once we compared schools to prisons. Now they are more and more like a slaughterhouse.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
I meant that I would like to hear the "thoughts" of other posters. But yes you are right, compulsory education is all about control.
I am the parent of a third grader in the public schools. I am appalled not only at the fact that they use calculators in class to memorize "math facts" (as opposed to teaching strategies for simple math) but that rules such as "one-way hallways" exist. As sad as it is, I have come to the conclusion that elementary schools are aimed at teaching reading, writing, arithmatic, and conformity. Nothing more. There are a plethora of inane rules that only frustrate children and parents but serve to teach obedience. Unquestioned obedience. It doesn't matter if the rule makes sense, you have to follow it. This is why school (third grade, mind you) has become so difficult for my child. He is bright, loves learning, and (much to the annoyance of his teachers and administrators) thinks for himself. He is not violent, doesn't have anger issues, and works hard to please his teachers. Yet, conference after conference, what I hear from teachers is, simply put, he's not conforming enough. And every time, their tone of voice contains a hint of accusation to it. Apparently, I have gone terribly wrong by raising a compassionate, free-thinking, logical child for the past eight years. It was even once suggested to me that "behavioral medication" might solve the problem of him speaking up too much in class. Of course, I refused. And you can count on the fact that if a "one-way hallway" rule was ever implemented in my son's school district that I would be the first parent to stand up at the next school borad meeting and demand to know why obedience has taken precedence over education in the public schools.
measles: I have come to the conclusion that elementary schools are aimed at teaching reading, writing, arithmatic, and conformity. Nothing more. There are a plethora of inane rules that only frustrate children and parents but serve to teach obedience. Unquestioned obedience.
I have come to the conclusion that elementary schools are aimed at teaching reading, writing, arithmatic, and conformity. Nothing more. There are a plethora of inane rules that only frustrate children and parents but serve to teach obedience. Unquestioned obedience.
The only edit I would make to that is that they are there to teach conformity. Any math, reading or writing is only there so you won't take your kid out.
measles:Yet, conference after conference, what I hear from teachers is, simply put, he's not conforming enough. ... It was even once suggested to me that "behavioral medication" might solve the problem of him speaking up too much in class. Of course, I refused.
Yet, conference after conference, what I hear from teachers is, simply put, he's not conforming enough. ... It was even once suggested to me that "behavioral medication" might solve the problem of him speaking up too much in class. Of course, I refused.
Don't wait until they make a rule change that means you can not refuse, or that they don't have to tell you, or that refusal is evidence of child abuse/neglect.
Homeschooling is much easier than you may think, and not expensive at all. If it comes down to a choice between two incomes and your child's live, which would you choose?
I know what I have chosen. My 4 year old is reading at a 4th grade level, doing second grade math, knows geography very well, loves art classes at the local city (puke) arts center and soccer at the YMCA.
http://www.secular-homeschooling.com/
Bravo, Curt. Good work. The good way to go.
Hello there I am new here. I am 31 years old and I hail from the "Glorious Nation of... Europe"!
I just wanted to bring my personal experience in public schooling matters. As a university student and a young pennyless BA I used to give personal tuition to schoolboys to raise a bit of extra money. My fields were chemistry, physics and mathematics.
When I started out I expected my pupils to be lazy boys and girls who needed to be whipped into shape, as I was teached in school. I was shocked to discover the exact opposite: most of them were eager and quick to learn once they were removed from the public school enviroment. I can honestly say that I taught to many boys and girls but I had only one genuine lazy pupil. At least a couple of them were very brilliant boys who just needed a little extra attention to give great results: how can I believe that a boy who can solve a complicated algebra problem in a matter of minutes is lazy or, even worse, "not very bright"? He's just been taught to tackle the problem incorrectly or, worse yet, he's been "kept behind" not to interfere with the rest of the class. In such a situation even a gifted pupil can have problems getting the bare minimum to pass class.
When I am told that today's boys and girls are lazy, good for nothing or just plain stupid I can't stay silent. Of course older people (particulary those from the so called "Big Generation") will tell you that the problem is videogames, TV or anything else. I always ask how can they watch a lot of TV or play a lot of videogames if they have so many homeworks to do or if they are forced into so many useless afternoon activities. "Dumbing Us Down"? I can't but agree.
SouthernHero: The insanity of the state (especially in the slavery of public "education" ) never shocks me anymore. I was discussing public schools with a public school teacher. She spoke glowingly of the policy at her school: One-way hallways. This means that children must march down the hallways in only one direction, straight ahead. Each hallway has big arrows that tell the children the only available direction that they must walk. If they go too far, they must make a complete loop around the school in order to visit their locker if they passed it the first time. Any child caught turning around, back-peddling, stopping or stalling is issued a detention slip or worse if they keep it up. I asked her if she was familiar with communist, fascist and statist regimes and she laughed and said "I know what you mean, but we can't have the kids just walking wherever they want."
The insanity of the state (especially in the slavery of public "education" ) never shocks me anymore.
Personally I always deeply resented school and teacher, even more then other civil servants. Possibly due to the the difference in world view between the school and what I learned at home. One must imagine the pertinents of the public schooling system. First they coerce you to attend school, then they make you pay for it as well.
measles:Unquestioned obedience.
There's a George Carlin routine that would be quite appropriate for this topic, but it's probably too vulgar to be posted.
And you can count on the fact that if a "one-way hallway" rule was ever implemented in my son's school district that I would be the first parent to stand up at the next school borad meeting and demand to know why obedience has taken precedence over education in the public schools.
If I may, considering your clear displeasure with the school system, why wait? It seems to me you already think that obedience has taken precedence over education, so why wait for the system to become even more draconian?
By the way, I would like to recommend to you the works of John Taylor Gatto. If you haven't already, read them. Pay special attention to the origins of the public school system (assuming you live in the US.)
In my opinion, the acceptance (whether it be passive or active acceptance) of what arguably might be called fascism and downright tyranny in our schools portends something far worse for us. Much like how the use of public schools to indoctrinate people into believing that socialism was ever good for our country is leading us towards disaster, the recent (by recent I mean a period of more than a decade but less than two) efforts to condition students to accept fascism and tyranny as acceptable solutions to security problems should be a warning to us all that much darker days are ahead of us.
As an aside, I have always loved the word draconian as an adjective for the way our government operates. The very word itself invokes medieval tyrants.
bowenj10: In my opinion, the acceptance (whether it be passive or active acceptance) of what arguably might be called fascism and downright tyranny in our schools portends something far worse for us. Much like how the use of public schools to indoctrinate people into believing that socialism was ever good for our country is leading us towards disaster, the recent (by recent I mean a period of more than a decade but less than two) efforts to condition students to accept fascism and tyranny as acceptable solutions to security problems should be a warning to us all that much darker days are ahead of us.
IF the efforts were successful, of course. Sadly, I think they might have been. Back in September, a speaker came to the college I attend to speak about "Survellience, Terrorism, and the Constitution." I didn't go, and I'm glad I didn't after hearing that many of the people who attended gave the distinct impression that sacrificing liberty for security is okay. Of course, this is a college with 7,000 students, mostly from TN, hardly representative of my generation at large...
Before homeschooling my children, my most telling incident was when my 4th grade son brought home an essay on which he received a B. The essay was in response to a question that asked, "How would you feel in this situation if you were the main character." The teacher wrote that my son's writing was great but that my son would not have felt as he had written. So, the teacher took off points since she didn't agree with my son's feelings. Amazing!
I studied austrian economics so much that its principles have now become part of who I am. I am studying language teaching at a university in Quebec and I very often feel uneasy both when I study and when I teach in our schools.
School is compulsory and it shows, a lot...
-Most students DON'T want to be there (I often had 10 students 15 minutes late for every single classes, some leaving during class,running, while other just don't open their books and stare in front of them as if dead and lifeless).
-Many teachers are EDUCATING children, not teaching them. Take note that here we have the ministry of education, not teaching. Most teachers agree that they should have the power to take over parents' education and just shun when told that they are paid to teach, not educate. For them, teaching is educating and our new educational program is geared toward this very goal: students are now graded on (not making this up): Social conscience, environmental conscience, being critical of capitalism and over-consumption and cooperates to work with others. Those are only a couple examples. This mandatory program (even in private schools) is based on socio-constructivism and absolutely NO pure knowledge is to be taught. In my English classes ,for example, I cannot teach grammar rules. Instead, I must only speak in English and let my students learn grammar by trying to understand what is going on.
-School is mandatory, teachers want to educate students who just don't want to be there in the first place and no pure knowledge is taught. Woopiedoodlydoo!
Add to this situation:
-That our gov takes ~50% of our income directly on our paychecks and 15% on sales taxes.
-Thus people can't afford to have children so the gov provides 7$/day kindergarten where parents often leave their children from 6AM to 7-8 PM , often even on weekends.
-University students think it is perfectly normal and expected for both parents to work full-time because sending your children from age 0 to age 10 to a kindergarten 12-15 hours a day when you can't take care of them is A-OK! People actually look down on me when I tell them I want a traditionnal family where I'll be working and have my wife take care of our children (or vise-versa - I don't care really).
Social conscience, environmental conscience, being critical of capitalism and over-consumption and cooperates to work with others.
That is just incredible. What about being critical of the nonsense governments feed people?
Inquisitor: Social conscience, environmental conscience, being critical of capitalism and over-consumption and cooperates to work with others. That is just incredible. What about being critical of the nonsense governments feed people?
What are you talkign about? ahaha!
I'll dig my dusty program book and write down the compentencies for English learning as well as cross-corricular competencies (thats the actual term lolz)
Aight heres the list of cross-curricular competencies - keep in mind that at the elementary level , students CANNOT fail because the lowest grade allowed is D which means "Has some difficulties but acheives expected goals". At secondary/high school level students "can" fail, but I have not seen one fail an oral examination in which they had to give 2 arguments for a law even though they did not remember their own law they had created!:
We have, in order (shown as rings, starting from the outermost ring to the innermost):
Learning domains: (graded on this- these are divided in different subjects but I dont have time to write all 19 of them)
-Social universe
-Languages
-Arts
-Personnal development
-Maths, science and technologie
Cross-curricular competencies (this is what every teacher of every subject must ALSO grade students on):
-Explore Information
-Solve problems
-To use critical thinking (about capitalism, tv, environment...)
-Use of one's creative mind
-To communicative appropriately (and no, its not effectively that is written)
-To actualize one's potential
-To cooperate
-To use information and communication technologies
-To give oneself effective work methods
Domains of formation (not graded, but are the aims of this program)
-Media
-Orientation and entrepreneurship
-Health and well-being
-Environment and consumption
-"Living-together" and citizenship
Student
-To structure one's identity
-To build one's vision of the world
-To develop action capacity
There is not a single place where the word knowledge can be found.
That is pretty much how I'd expect a socialist borg's educational plan to be, minus any pretensions to 'critical' thinking.
For most people to be critical is to criticize and to be free is to be free from the hardship of reality.
Yan Grenier: Cross-curricular competencies (this is what every teacher of every subject must ALSO grade students on): -Explore Information -Solve problems -To use critical thinking (about capitalism, tv, environment...) -Use of one's creative mind -To communicative appropriately (and no, its not effectively that is written) -To actualize one's potential -To cooperate -To use information and communication technologies -To give oneself effective work methods
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these things that children should learn from their parents or on their own? How can anyone put a grade on one's ability to think objectively.
Yan Grenier: Domains of formation (not graded, but are the aims of this program) -Media -Orientation and entrepreneurship -Health and well-being -Environment and consumption -"Living-together" and citizenship Student -To structure one's identity -To build one's vision of the world -To develop action capacity
Again, aren't these things that the children have to learn on their own?
This is an issue that's going on in another discussion. The state has taken over the role of the parent. The problem with the state taking over the role of the parent or simply pushing a parent out of the way is that when the state fails to do its job, problems are magnified. This is what's happening here in the states.
Be advised that texts you'll get from official institutions are to be seen as sales pitches at best. They let sound everything very nicely, while the reality is most likely different. The South African schooling systems used to be very strict (for Whites, some of the Blacks burnt down schools, so that many other Blacks didn't have access to public education). At least it equiped people with some skills useful at the job market. Today they call their policy "outcomes based education" something that may work with grownups that have basic skills and knowledge already, while in training.
bowenj10:This is an issue that's going on in another discussion. The state has taken over the role of the parent. The problem with the state taking over the role of the parent or simply pushing a parent out of the way is that when the state fails to do its job, problems are magnified. This is what's happening here in the states.
bowenj10:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these things that children should learn from their parents or on their own? How can anyone put a grade on one's ability to think objectively.
I wonder how many of the mental, moral and social problems relate to the fact that nowadays children and youth attend school more then 10 years of their forming life.
Torsten: I wonder how many of the mental, moral and social problems relate to the fact that nowadays children and youth attend school more then 10 years of their forming life.
All of the people I've met who used drugs talk about the boredom and hopelessness they experienced in public school as their motivation for starting using them in the first place.
Now sure I've heard about rich bored kids who burn out their brains in rebellion against their overarching parents, but I've never met one.
@Curthowland,
Funny, now that you say it. almost ALL drug related activities are done by youngsters were their is some school system. Kids on farms may nip from Grandpas homemade booze, but that's about it.
Public schools deprive kids from natural authority figures (i.e. parents). Nay, they are even designed not to have your older brother around (who will emulate daddy, while he's absent). Then take all these subsidized incredibly stupid and left wing academics around. Now it's actually a miracle that not more kids end up in the Rehab clinique.
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these things that children should learn from their parents or on their own?"
Yes, and I firmly believe this should be so. When I am done getting my degree in language teaching, I am moving to another country where their style of teaching will be more appropriate to my own conception. I'm learning Japanese on my own and consider moving there to teach. I know, they are heavily taxed, but I'll pick the hellhole I prefer: at least most of their students care enough (from what I heard in legends (hehe) and from a couple friends who went there and worked in different types of schools).
The main problem we have with this point though is that most teachers (and the government likes this) believe that they are on very special mission to save children from incompetent parents, even if it is againts their will. Telling them that parents have the right not to educate children the way they (teachers) see fit has them infuriated. Add to that the fact that children have the undeniable right to go to school (up 'till age 16-18 -can't remember) and you get class climates where you are tempted to take parents' place in order to bring back a bare minimum of decency and learning. It would be much better and easier for everyone if this was not the case and schools could just throw out or refuse access to schools to children who can't behave, like any other private enterprise should be allowed to remove individuals from its property.
"How can anyone put a grade on one's ability to think objectively."
I know of no way to do this. This is bullshit, but then again the law states that every single teacher in both private and public schools has to teach and grade in this way else he gets fines, fired and/or his teaching licence gets revoked. I don't want to work in this environment. Also, many people in my class tell me to not complain and just follow the program because it is the law and that I have to follow it because I'll be teaching here. I tell them I'll work in another country then they either tell me that I'm an idealist or that I'm a traitor (because I was educated by the government of Quebec and am thus in its debt- wathever that means).
CurtHowland:All of the people I've met who used drugs talk about the boredom and hopelessness they experienced in public school as their motivation for starting using them in the first place.
Vicious circle. Children driven to drug use through their experiences at school. These kids get caught up in the War on Drugs and either end up in rehab or in jail for several years for a victimless crime. Rinse and repeat for the next generation. Where does it end?
Yan Grenier:most teachers (and the government likes this) believe that they are on very special mission to save children from incompetent parents, even if it is againts their will.
Or to cure ignorance. When I was in high school, because I had no more requirements to fill, I got stuck as an aide to a teacher in my last semester. She said that one day to her last class of the day. I was seriously holding back fits of laughter. If I recall that correctly, my class (her first class of the day for half the week) got the same lecture. I dunno why I didn't have the good sense to just walk out of the classroom. Same with the time she said public schools work.
Add to that the fact that children have the undeniable right to go to school (up 'till age 16-18 -can't remember)
Undeniable right? It's more like "go to school or else." I'll be shocked and amazed if homeschooling is even allowed in ten years in any state based on the direction this country is going in (unless Ron Paul or by some miracle whoever the LP and/or the Constitution Party put up get elected.)
I tell them I'll work in another country then they either tell me that I'm an idealist or that I'm a traitor (because I was educated by the government of Quebec and am thus in its debt- wathever that means).
You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.
I am neither joking nor having fun.
edit: And when I say students have an "undeniable right" to go to school, I of course mean that the law grants them such rights. I do not concode with this system that forces parents to educate their children in ways they may not want to.
ssdded:You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.
I'm affraid it's really nothing uncommon in socialist countries, I'm from Poland and I hear stuff like that all the time.
There's been a wave of emigration recently (about 2 million people), and every time this is mentioned you hear someone say "they should only be allowed to leave after they had paid for their free education!".
We were also given a class at my Uni during which they explained this new program. We were told, among other things:
-That teaching knowledge is useless and that everything that is taught must be a competency that has to be immediately reusable or else students will just forget and learn nothing.
-That failing students is bad (it is forbidden by the grading system at the primary level- the lowest grade being "D") because it is a way for teacher to take revenge on bad students and that said students are more likely to drop out of school due to demotivation. The goal of this reform is openly told too: to reduce drop out rates and hand out an higher number of diploma.
-When told that this new program and evaluation criterias are dumbing down "education", we are told that students are doing better in ways which we were not taught previously to look for (i.e: students may not be able to spell words or use proper grammar, but they are motivated anough to write a 200 words essay in secondary 5 (Grade 11) ). To tell a student about his mistakes has now to be done using silk gloves or not at all if possible. Instead, we should look for points and meaning in a mess. They call this holistic.
Yan Grenier:(i.e: students may not be able to spell words or use proper grammar, but they are motivated anough to write a 200 words essay in secondary 5 (Grade 11) )
200 words in 11th grade? Is that supposed to be impressive?
Yan Grenier:-That teaching knowledge is useless and that everything that is taught must be a competency that has to be immediately reusable or else students will just forget and learn nothing.
You know, with this I can actually agree. Over here schools go to the other extreme, they force students to memorize mountains of abstarct knowledhe, which they are unable to apply later on.
SouthernHero:Oh, wow... Thoughts?
Here's a thought for you: Stephen King expressed the essence of public schools in The Shining, when describing the Overlook Hotel. He wrote, "This inhuman place makes human monsters."
SouthernHero:The insanity of the state (especially in the slavery of public "education") never shocks me anymore. I was discussing public schools with a public school teacher. She spoke glowingly of the policy at her school: One-way hallways. This means that children must march down the hallways in only one direction, straight ahead. Each hallway has big arrows that tell the children the only available direction that they must walk. If they go too far, they must make a complete loop around the school in order to visit their locker if they passed it the first time. Any child caught turning around, back-peddling, stopping or stalling is issued a detention slip or worse if they keep it up. I asked her if she was familiar with communist, fascist and statist regimes and she laughed and said "I know what you mean, but we can't have the kids just walking wherever they want." Oh, wow... Thoughts?
Ugh... this should not be allowed. I would absolutely be against this if it happened in my school.
Here is what schools should be like. Feel free to disagree, or to add to my list:
This is making me dissatisfied. I know what I want to learn and how I can learn it. I just don't want to be forced to attend the public school.
Also, this year they removed the only economics class from the whole curriculum that was on the old program (yes, it taught Keynes', but at least they got to learn what words like offer and demand meant-in a way-) to replace it with a class called :
Modern World: A class in which students will learn (told by the director of the ministry of education of Quebec) : population growth, environmental concerns and solutions, wealth redistribution, tension and conflicts, and theories of world government.
And again: This is not fabricated and is purely genuine. Some meaning may be lost due to translation, but I made it as accurate as possible.
@Purplemage: See, this is what you would like your school to be like, but if they were all like this by law we would have the same problem we have right now.
If you agree that schools should be free to make up every single rule they wish as long as they are stated in a contract parents have the right to sign or not, and if you agree that no law should force parents to educate their children in a way or in another, then I agree that your type of school may work for some people, but I would still doubt that a free market of schools would go that way due to the tendency to standardization where most people would like to know the people they hire had certain specific classes of certain subjects and were also graded.
So, according to the logic in this class you mentioned, why even bother going to school? Gaining knowledge is ideally the point, but if the governments of major countries keep mucking it up (or establish a system where it's only an illusion that gaining knowledge is the point,) why bother?
-That failing students is bad (it is forbidden by the grading system at the primary level- the lowest grade being "D") because it is a way for teacher to take revenge on bad students and that said students are more likely to drop out of school due to demotivation.
If a student has to try very hard to fail, won't that REDUCE THEIR MOTIVATION TO WORK? I feel sorry for you Canadians. I thought the schools were bad here, but that just blows my mind.
The goal of this reform is openly told too: to reduce drop out rates and hand out an higher number of diploma.
If thousands of functionally illiterate students have diplomas, that would reduce their worth.
And they probably laugh nervously before saying it, too. And a 200 word essay in grade 11 is pathetic. Maybe as an in-class exercise or BRIEF report, but not as a major assignment.
Yan Grenier:Modern World: A class in which students will learn (told by the director of the ministry of education of Quebec) : population growth, environmental concerns and solutions, wealth redistribution, tension and conflicts, and theories of world government.
Why don't they just call it "The Joys of Socialism"? That would say just as much as the title and description AND give people a better idea of what to expect.
ssdded:And a 200 word essay in grade 11 is pathetic.
No kidding. 200 words is primary school work.
ssdded:Why don't they just call it "The Joys of Socialism"? That would say just as much as the title and description AND give people a better idea of what to expect.
If people know what to expect, then they can raise objections. A government that consistently told its subjects the truth would not survive a year. How long do you think that a politician could escape Mussolini's fate if he admitted that he was running a protection racket?
Matthew Graybosch: ssdded:And a 200 word essay in grade 11 is pathetic. No kidding. 200 words is primary school work.
Well its English as a second language, but back in my "old days" (like 6 years ago) we were to produce a 500 words or so text.
Also, did I forget to say that I am to NOT teach grammar rules overtly? They are supposed to incorporate them by listening to me speaking and talking to one another. During my last internship I corrected exams on which students did not even write their name properly and others on which students used color highlighters to write instead of a pen or pencil. I was told this was "o.k" and to focus on finding positive points rather than judging the negative ones. I also helped grade 9 students to discover how to use a dictionary or read time on a clock.