Rubén: liberty student: Obama is 100% establishment, and putting these heartstring pulling articles, that read like fan letters, aside, I'd like for you to explain, specifically what it is about Obama, that you Ruben, believe sets him apart. Politically. Because he represents hope YES HE CAN Not many people in thios troubled, divided world have the leadership to unite the voice of humanity. Obama can. Give him a break. Give him a chance. Be hopeful for a better future. VICTORY!!! God bless America.
liberty student: Obama is 100% establishment, and putting these heartstring pulling articles, that read like fan letters, aside, I'd like for you to explain, specifically what it is about Obama, that you Ruben, believe sets him apart. Politically.
Obama is 100% establishment, and putting these heartstring pulling articles, that read like fan letters, aside, I'd like for you to explain, specifically what it is about Obama, that you Ruben, believe sets him apart. Politically.
Because he represents hope
YES HE CAN
Not many people in thios troubled, divided world have the leadership to unite the voice of humanity. Obama can.
Give him a break. Give him a chance.
Be hopeful for a better future.
VICTORY!!!
God bless America.
So you can't answer it. You're just another babbling Obamamaniac, who hasn't read his policy positions, and cannot point out any achievement he has that would back up your belief in his divine right to be President.
Exactly what I thought. It is opinions like this, not based in reality or rational thought, that have brought the world to the place it is today.
Rubén:IS THE WHOLE PLANET a special interest? This whole Planet Earth wants Obama in charge of the USA.
I can't talk to you anymore. You're completely obtuse.
Ruben:IS THE WHOLE PLANET a special interest? This whole Planet Earth wants Obama in charge of the USA.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
"So you can't answer it. You're just another babbling Obamamaniac, who hasn't read his policy positions, and cannot point out any achievement he has that would back up your belief in his divine right to be President.
Exactly what I thought. It is opinions like this, not based in reality or rational thought, that have brought the world to the place it is today."
Politics is also emotion. This is the first time in my life I see this planet united in a single cause. When Hitler won supported by Nazi Germany from minute one he faced opposition from abroad.
Not this time. An opportunity of building peace across cultures is being opened. Everyone's ideas should be welcomed. I am sure I will disagree with some of Obama's policies at some point early in his term of office. But he is pledging to listen what people say. He would try to make an effort to listen to your views if you make an effort to reach out. I do not think he is trying to exclude your views. Neither am I.
Again, God bless America. The founding fathers should be proud in their graves that they built a system that almost three centuries later made a moment of hope like this happen to the great grandchildren of their great grandchildren-.
Art transcends ideology.
http://mises.org/Community/blogs/ruben
liberty student: Rubén:IS THE WHOLE PLANET a special interest? This whole Planet Earth wants Obama in charge of the USA. I can't talk to you anymore. You're completely obtuse.
Is it obtuse to celebrate what one has been fighting for? I have the right to celebrate what I consider is an achievement of the American people, of a country for which I have a special place in my heart in spite of the current enmities and threats of war and sanctions.
Juan: Ruben:IS THE WHOLE PLANET a special interest? This whole Planet Earth wants Obama in charge of the USA. In the past elections the candidate that (regretfully) won got some 62 millions votes -- wich means that some 240 million Americans DIDN'T vote for the clown who rules them... The same thing will be true about obama...
This time the turnout was a lot higher.
Jon Irenicus: I wouldn't give him a second of my time, let alone a chance. I hope the US comes crashing down under him. -Jon
I wouldn't give him a second of my time, let alone a chance. I hope the US comes crashing down under him.
-Jon
Jon,
I have read that other people write about you that you just won't listen to other people. But here you are proving why you deserve being a moderator. You express your feelings and emotions without putting people down, and you sound very sincere.
Thank you for keeping this forum alive. I don't understand you much, but I definitely respect you a lot.
Rubén
That type of line sums up the general atmosphere of many around me, for today.For some, you can tell they are in denial about the entire thing, but generally lack the specific information about what that "something is wrong" actually is (i.e. democracy, the status quo, statism, etc.). They struggle to understand different concepts, opinions, & arguments, & some eventually end up actually getting beyond the existential confusion of merely being apathetic. I can accept failure to communicate with these individuals, since there is at least effort on both sides. For others, being purposely obtuse is more or less embraced, as such general ignorance is utilized by many others around them. The reasoning, I guess tantamount to an ultimate rationalization of the rule of majority: if the majority believe it, it must be true. If the majority is ignorant, I must follow suite (not necessarily consciously either, some do not even realize it is going on). Failure in this case, with an individual, is especially bitter, as the memetic virus of Ignorance continues to spread despite one's efforts & time spent. Trying to fight (let alone tolerate) the mysticism of popular political discourse is draining.
"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict
Rubén: "So you can't answer it. You're just another babbling Obamamaniac, who hasn't read his policy positions, and cannot point out any achievement he has that would back up your belief in his divine right to be President. Exactly what I thought. It is opinions like this, not based in reality or rational thought, that have brought the world to the place it is today." Politics is also emotion. This is the first time in my life I see this planet united in a single cause. When Hitler won supported by Nazi Germany from minute one he faced opposition from abroad. Not this time. An opportunity of building peace across cultures is being opened. Everyone's ideas should be welcomed. I am sure I will disagree with some of Obama's policies at some point early in his term of office. But he is pledging to listen what people say. He would try to make an effort to listen to your views if you make an effort to reach out. I do not think he is trying to exclude your views. Neither am I. Again, God bless America. The founding fathers should be proud in their graves that they built a system that almost three centuries later made a moment of hope like this happen to the great grandchildren of their great grandchildren-.
America is heading straight towards Fascism, but it will happen precisley because it won't appear to be the "same" as the Fascism that came to Weimar Germany. The Founding Fathers would've ditched this popsicle stand a century ago, imo.
liberty student: I can't talk to you anymore. You're completely obtuse.
Liberty student:
I am disappointed that you removed your friendship from me on the home page. I do not know what it really works for, but still I lament that you chose to remove my picture from there.
You remind of the broken families and divorces that occur for political reasons. Here in Venezuela I have friends from both the Chávez camp and the opposition camp. I am in the ooposition camp. But still I can maintain friendship with people on the Chávez side and enjoy friendship through aspects other than political discourse.
Mr. Chávez acts the same way you just did, when he is in disagreement with someone he just pulls that person off his world, denies their existence and invites them to become enemies.
Friendship is not only for partying and for agreeing. It is also sometimes for saying harsh things that can make you grow as a person.
I hope you consider that political or ideological differences are aside from friendship which is what unites human beings.
Merci.
Nitroadict: Nitroadict: America is heading straight towards Fascism, but it will happen precisley because it won't appear to be the "same" as the Fascism that came to Weimar Germany. The Founding Fathers would've ditched this popsicle stand a century ago, imo.
Nitroadict:
Could be. I do not deny there is always that risk. Within the happiness I experience right now, I promise you I will keep an eye on that possibility. We should try nevertheless by our available means not to let that happen.
Cheers,
Rubén: liberty student: I can't talk to you anymore. You're completely obtuse. Liberty student: I am disappointed that you removed your friendship from me on the home page. I do not know what it really works for, but still I lament that you chose to remove my picture from there. You remind of the broken families and divorces that occur for political reasons. Here in Venezuela I have friends from both the Chávez camp and the opposition camp. I am in the ooposition camp. But still I can maintain friendship with people on the Chávez side and enjoy friendship through aspects other than political discourse. Mr. Chávez acts the same way you just did, when he is in disagreement with someone he just pulls that person off his world, denies their existence and invites them to become enemies.
Social ostracism does not one make a dictator </yoda>
I have read that other people write about you that you just won't listen to other people.
That is a matter of opinion.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
Jon Irenicus: I have read that other people write about you that you just won't listen to other people. That is a matter of opinion. -Jon
Well said.
Rubén: Is it obtuse to celebrate what one has been fighting for? I have the right to celebrate what I consider is an achievement of the American people, of a country for which I have a special place in my heart in spite of the current enmities and threats of war and sanctions.
I'm posting this in the hopes that unclicking the "email me replies to this post" will stop filling up my inbox. Enough is enough, people!
Rubén, you're behaving in extraordinarily bad taste. In case you hadn't noticed, you are posting at mises.org. The Austrian community here at Mises, almost without exception, believes Barack Obama to be a man with a very evil agenda, differing only in age and style from John McCain, or even from George Bush. You might find this all fun and celebratory, but you're advised to take your celebrations elsewhere, they're not appreciated one whit by anyone in this forum. This fabulous "achievement of the American people" will be about as much fun as a jar full of acid in the face, in the long run, and the people you are talking to have very few illusions left about that. We see this election, regardless of which fascist wins, as the death-knell of what was left of America. Please leave us in peace; we're not much in the mood for celebration.
I've been reading this horrible thread as it has appeared in my handheld all day and I finally figured I wanted to see what was up. I have to wonder if the same comments that all of you make here would be made so strongly in person. I want to leave you all with a quote from today's Dave Barry column. It reminds me that in the coming months, as the global economy will continue to descend into absolute shitcake, the commodity that will be in the shortest demand is going to be goodwill.
"... unlike today, when people wear out their upper lips sneering at those who disagree with them, the 1960s grown-ups of my memory, whoever they voted for, continued to respect each other and remain good friends.
What was their secret? Gin. On any given Saturday night they consumed enough martinis to fuel an assault helicopter. But also they were capable of understanding a concept that we seem to have lost, which is that people who disagree with you politically are not necessarily evil or stupid. My parents and their friends took it for granted that most people were fundamentally decent and wanted the best for the country. So they argued by sincerely (if loudly) trying to persuade each other. They did not argue by calling each other names, which is pointless and childish, and which constitutes I would estimate 97 percent of what passes for political debate today.
What I'm saying is: we, as a nation, need to drink more martinis.
No, you know what I'm saying. I'm saying, now that this election is over, whatever the hell happened, can we please grow up and stop being so nasty to each other? Please?" - Dave Barry
~jaq
Jaq Phule: I've been reading this horrible thread as it has appeared in my handheld all day and I finally figured I wanted to see what was up. I have to wonder if the same comments you make here would be made so strongly in person.
I've been reading this horrible thread as it has appeared in my handheld all day and I finally figured I wanted to see what was up. I have to wonder if the same comments you make here would be made so strongly in person.
Actually, I would make exactly the same comments in person. Especially to you, as I speak exactly the same language than you. Since we are both colleagues, as we are both pure Mathematicians.
Nitroadict:Trying to fight (let alone tolerate) the mysticism of popular political discourse is draining.
You're 100% right. I am totally drained from this election, strictly from my interactions online, although I did step outside this afternoon to see my next door neighbor with an Obama/Biden sign on his lawn.
So apparently mysticism and stupidity are the prevailing attitude of the day. I mean, read up thread, the nonsense about unifying a world, and someone being able to do it, YES HE CAN. It's like being in a zombie trance, spouting incantations and prayers to the gods.
Every day, the liberty colony looks better and better, because I want to believe we can win the fights at home, but when we're surrounded by so many stupid people, who want to to vote for coercion, theft, murder and really believe it is a good thing BECAUSE, then maybe it is time to take leave of these fools, these dangerous looters and start anew.
That's not an endorsement of the liberty colony. It is an endorsement of abandoning people like Ruben, who have no ethics, who deal with everything subjectively, who do not act rationally, using the full capacity of a human mind, but instead spiritually, like an animal. These people are beyond education and reform. They are full grown adults that are empty vessels of lies and irrationality.
Utterly disgusted today. I was really hoping the Republicans would steal the election again. Instead, this is just going to reinforce to the Obama fanatics that politics is a tool they can use to punish their enemies.
Obama, like McCain, like Bush is a murderer and a criminal. Obama has voted to steal, and he has voted to kill. It saddens me to see cattle like Ruben applauding his election.
Rubén:Actually, I would make exactly the same comments in person. Especially to you, as I speak exactly the same language than you. Since we are both colleagues, as we are both pure Mathematicians.
No one is your colleague. You are a looter and a statist.
Jaq Phule: Please leave us in peace; we're not much in the mood for celebration.
Please leave us in peace; we're not much in the mood for celebration.
liberty student: Rubén:Actually, I would make exactly the same comments in person. Especially to you, as I speak exactly the same language than you. Since we are both colleagues, as we are both pure Mathematicians. No one is your colleague. You are a looter and a statist.
Please learn from your wise moderator Jon:
"That is a matter of opinion".
Yes, and I am happy he is going to be president. When his "change" goes monumentally awry, no one will be able to blame "capitalism" or laissez-faire. At best they'll be stuck doing what Republicans do, saying they only messed up because they inherited a problem. It's good, for liberty.
Rubén: liberty student: Rubén:Actually, I would make exactly the same comments in person. Especially to you, as I speak exactly the same language than you. Since we are both colleagues, as we are both pure Mathematicians. No one is your colleague. You are a looter and a statist. Please learn from your wise moderator Jon: "That is a matter of opinion".
You are defintley a supporter of a Statist, but it is curious you came here regardless.
Nitroadict: Jaq Phule: Please leave us in peace; we're not much in the mood for celebration. I do not agree. Many other's do not seem to mind debating Ruben.
And I have learned enormously on lots of economics topics from all of you guys. Thank you for having me in.
Rubén:Liberty student: I am disappointed that you removed your friendship from me on the home page. I do not know what it really works for, but still I lament that you chose to remove my picture from there. You remind of the broken families and divorces that occur for political reasons. Here in Venezuela I have friends from both the Chávez camp and the opposition camp. I am in the ooposition camp. But still I can maintain friendship with people on the Chávez side and enjoy friendship through aspects other than political discourse. Mr. Chávez acts the same way you just did, when he is in disagreement with someone he just pulls that person off his world, denies their existence and invites them to become enemies. Friendship is not only for partying and for agreeing. It is also sometimes for saying harsh things that can make you grow as a person. I hope you consider that political or ideological differences are aside from friendship which is what unites human beings. Merci. Rubén
We're not friends. You are a looter and a statist. You applaud and cheer when looters and statists get a mandate, and you long for them emotionally to transform your world by hurting me and others.
I find you utterly distasteful. I think you are either incredibly naive or ignorant, because your evil seems innocent enough.
That said, I removed my friendship with you, because I don't want to sully the character of the other people on my friend's list who understand liberty, who fight for liberty and want to achieve liberty in our lifetimes. To us, you are the enemy. You are someone who endorses a system of slavery and coercion.
You do not deserve to be on that list. Obama is a murderer and a thief, and here you are throwing it in all of our faces, how you cheer him on to transform the world with more murder and more theft. By restricting more rights, and kowtowing to more global business interests.
I don't know why you are here Ruben. There is nothing even remotely Austrian about your viewpoints, which are so sophomoric, that no one here is going to be swayed towards such stupidity and evil.
Rubén: The founding fathers should be proud in their graves that they built a system that almost three centuries later made a moment of hope like this happen to the great grandchildren of their great grandchildren-.
The founding fathers should be proud in their graves that they built a system that almost three centuries later made a moment of hope like this happen to the great grandchildren of their great grandchildren-.
The founding fathers would be cleaning and loading their muskets right now. Or actually, they would probably have been thrown in Gitmo as terrorists, thanks to people like Obama and McCain.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
Nitroadict: Rubén: liberty student: Rubén:Actually, I would make exactly the same comments in person. Especially to you, as I speak exactly the same language than you. Since we are both colleagues, as we are both pure Mathematicians. No one is your colleague. You are a looter and a statist. Please learn from your wise moderator Jon: "That is a matter of opinion". You are defintley a supporter of a Statist, but it is curious you came here regardless.
That shows you I am much more open-minded than what could be believed in the first place. The world is full of people with different ideas, and somehow we all have the potential to learn something from each other.
And I came here because I value this forum and because I agree very much with the two books of Rothbard that I have read as a recommendation from this forum.
I do not consider myself as a statist. I just believe the state has a value and a purpose and should not be eliminated. But I agree that it has become increasingly large. And still I realize Rothbards's thesis that no matter how small a state is, its natural tendency is to grow like a cancer.
Ideas will always be full of contradictions. They are part of life.
Rubén: liberty student:No one is your colleague. You are a looter and a statist.Please learn from your wise moderator Jon: "That is a matter of opinion".
liberty student:No one is your colleague. You are a looter and a statist.
No, you are actually a looter and a statist. You're pro-theft, pro-violence, pro-slavery. That is the system you endorse. Don't run from it. Embrace it the same way you enthusiastically rush to place your head on Obama's global breast of hope and change!
liberty student: I don't know why you are here Ruben. There is nothing even remotely Austrian about your viewpoints, which are so sophomoric, that no one here is going to be swayed towards such stupidity and evil.
Well, there is an objective test here at mises.org, multiple choice, that has 25 questions, one is keynesian, another is Chicago, another is socialist, and another is Austrian. The scoring is: 4 points for the Austrian answer, 2 points for the Chicago answer, 1 point for the socialist answer, 0 points for the socialist answer. I took the test and scored 85 when I had just signed in here.
So I consider myself I have somewhat a decent beginners knowledge of Austrian Economics.
Jon Irenicus: Well said. Yes, and I am happy he is going to be president. When his "change" goes monumentally awry, no one will be able to blame "capitalism" or laissez-faire. At best they'll be stuck doing what Republicans do, saying they only messed up because they inherited a problem. It's good, for liberty. -Jon
If that's the case, I will have no choice but to agree with you.
But if things work out, perhaps there could be an opportunity to advance on further frontiers.
Rubén:Give him a chance.
Says the rapist to his victim, "Give it a chance."
ehhhh, Im going to wear all black tomorrow and paint a circle A on my forehead
Rubén:I do not consider myself as a statist.
Rubén:I just believe the state has a value and a purpose and should not be eliminated.
I just wanted to highlight those two statements as they seem to speak for themselves.
Base model cars of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but quarter-mile races.
I agree actually, I think either candidate would make the situation worse in terms of the economy and civil liberties, thus setting the objective conditions for a revolution. However, in terms of helping the subjective conditions, Obama would definately be better.
I hope that in four years time when there's a few more wars going on, the government has grown and the economy has deteriorated (sp?) and none of this "change" has actually occured people will realise what a farce and a scam democracy really is. I'm not counting on it though, the American people seem to have a memory span of just under 4 years.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
I think this a bit harsh to be truthful, the vast majority (make that everyone) of my friends is a statist to some extent or another. Isolating ourselves makes no sense.
FreedomIsYellow: Rubén:I do not consider myself as a statist. Rubén:I just believe the state has a value and a purpose and should not be eliminated. I just wanted to highlight those two statements as they seem to speak for themselves.
They don't.
One thing is to have a small state as explained by Hobbes centuries ago, while leaving the majority of issues in parivate hands.
And another very different is to have a superstate where everything is socialized and there is no room left for private enterprise.
Examples of both kinds of states exist in today's world. The former have happier citizens than the latter.
Rubén: Because he represents hope YES HE CAN Not many people in thios troubled, divided world have the leadership to unite the voice of humanity. Obama can. Give him a break. Give him a chance. Be hopeful for a better future. VICTORY!!! God bless America
God bless America
George Orwell: The political dialects to be found in pamphlets, leading articles, manifestos, White papers and the speeches of undersecretaries do, of course, vary from party to party, but they are all alike in that one almost never finds in them a fresh, vivid, homemade turn of speech. When one watches some tired hack on the platform mechanically repeating the familiar phrases -- bestial, atrocities, iron heel, bloodstained tyranny, free peoples of the world, stand shoulder to shoulder -- one often has a curious feeling that one is not watching a live human being but some kind of dummy: a feeling which suddenly becomes stronger at moments when the light catches the speaker's spectacles and turns them into blank discs which seem to have no eyes behind them. And this is not altogether fanciful. A speaker who uses that kind of phraseology has gone some distance toward turning himself into a machine. The appropriate noises are coming out of his larynx, but his brain is not involved, as it would be if he were choosing his words for himself. If the speech he is making is one that he is accustomed to make over and over again, he may be almost unconscious of what he is saying, as one is when one utters the responses in church. And this reduced state of consciousness, if not indispensable, is at any rate favourable to political conformity.
The political dialects to be found in pamphlets, leading articles, manifestos, White papers and the speeches of undersecretaries do, of course, vary from party to party, but they are all alike in that one almost never finds in them a fresh, vivid, homemade turn of speech. When one watches some tired hack on the platform mechanically repeating the familiar phrases -- bestial, atrocities, iron heel, bloodstained tyranny, free peoples of the world, stand shoulder to shoulder -- one often has a curious feeling that one is not watching a live human being but some kind of dummy: a feeling which suddenly becomes stronger at moments when the light catches the speaker's spectacles and turns them into blank discs which seem to have no eyes behind them. And this is not altogether fanciful. A speaker who uses that kind of phraseology has gone some distance toward turning himself into a machine. The appropriate noises are coming out of his larynx, but his brain is not involved, as it would be if he were choosing his words for himself. If the speech he is making is one that he is accustomed to make over and over again, he may be almost unconscious of what he is saying, as one is when one utters the responses in church. And this reduced state of consciousness, if not indispensable, is at any rate favourable to political conformity.
There's nothing more I can say really.
Rubén: They don't. One thing is to have a small state as explained by Hobbes centuries ago, while leaving the majority of issues in parivate hands.
You probably mean Locke. Hobbes embraced the idea of a Leviathan, a word used today to describe a totalitarian regulatory nanny-state.
GilesStratton: Rubén: Because he represents hope YES HE CAN Not many people in thios troubled, divided world have the leadership to unite the voice of humanity. Obama can. Give him a break. Give him a chance. Be hopeful for a better future. VICTORY!!! God bless America George Orwell: The political dialects to be found in pamphlets, leading articles, manifestos, White papers and the speeches of undersecretaries do, of course, vary from party to party, but they are all alike in that one almost never finds in them a fresh, vivid, homemade turn of speech. When one watches some tired hack on the platform mechanically repeating the familiar phrases -- bestial, atrocities, iron heel, bloodstained tyranny, free peoples of the world, stand shoulder to shoulder -- one often has a curious feeling that one is not watching a live human being but some kind of dummy: a feeling which suddenly becomes stronger at moments when the light catches the speaker's spectacles and turns them into blank discs which seem to have no eyes behind them. And this is not altogether fanciful. A speaker who uses that kind of phraseology has gone some distance toward turning himself into a machine. The appropriate noises are coming out of his larynx, but his brain is not involved, as it would be if he were choosing his words for himself. If the speech he is making is one that he is accustomed to make over and over again, he may be almost unconscious of what he is saying, as one is when one utters the responses in church. And this reduced state of consciousness, if not indispensable, is at any rate favourable to political conformity. There's nothing more I can say really.
I think it should be re-titled to "2009". Looks like reality managed to half-ass an inevitability by about 2 decades, just barley.
Rubén: They don't. One thing is to have a small state as explained by Hobbes centuries ago, while leaving the majority of issues in parivate hands. And another very different is to have a superstate where everything is socialized and there is no room left for private enterprise.
From wikipedia (of course, TOW is no expert)
Statism (or Etatism) is a very loose and often derogatory term that is used to describe:
Rubén:Examples of both kinds of states exist in today's world. The former have happier citizens than the latter.
Mmmm, so legitimacy is about maximizing happiness?
GilesStratton:I think this a bit harsh to be truthful, the vast majority (make that everyone) of my friends is a statist to some extent or another. Isolating ourselves makes no sense.
Your friends come to Mises.org and lecture me on the benificence of the state, they'll get a post slap in the face too.
If Ruben is going to hang around, he needs to get real and be honest. I know I asked you (and others) to give him some room, but I was blind and y'all could see. I figured he needed time to figure it out, not that he was a proud promoter of violence and theft.
I apologize to you. To Ruben, you'd best wake up or stick to economics. Your politics of fear, control and insecurity at our expense are not appreciated or held in high regard.