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Molyneux continues to embarrass Libertarian movement

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QuestEon Posted: Sat, Nov 15 2008 12:23 PM

Perhaps is it was only a matter of time before a family member went to the press over Stefan Molyneux's bizarre ideas.  This article about FreeDomainRadio recently appeared in the UK Guardian.

If there's a saving grace, it is that Molyneux's theories have become so overarching/grandiose, the word "libertarian" doesn't even appear in the article! However, interested readers of the article who visit FDR will soon make the connection.

Perhaps I'm overreacting, but given the energetic marketing and outreach he uses to attract people to his enterprise, I think he gives us all a black eye.

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Nitroadict replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 12:33 PM

QuestEon:

Perhaps is it was only a matter of time before a family member went to the press over Stefan Molyneux's bizarre ideas.  This article about FreeDomainRadio recently appeared in the UK Guardian.

If there's a saving grace, it is that Molyneux's theories have become so overarching/grandiose, the word "libertarian" doesn't even appear in the article! However, interested readers of the article who visit FDR will soon make the connection.

Perhaps I'm overreacting, but given the energetic marketing and outreach he uses to attract people to his enterprise, I think he gives us all a black eye.


Yes & No to over-reacting.  The emotive argument of the article will obviously win many hearts & minds, but a good deal of people will also say "well he's 18 etc. etc. etc.", or  "yes, let's over-react to an 18 year old's choice that may or may not be stupid (sarcasm), waste of time etc. etc. etc.", & so on.

And from the looks of it, he won't be turned into some martyr as he did not die in some tragic accident or circumstance, so that's obviously a plus.

Anyways, I'm sure the Anti-Molyneux fan boys in the community will have some nice schadefreude to read, despite the young man in question being 18 years old (more or less an adult), & did not harm anyone physically, nor did he wind up dead somewhere, due to his choice.  I'm someone will argue this is proof of Molyneux devious plot to destroy the traditional concept of a family with the aid of the Internet & sharks with lazer beams on their heads.

Yes, it appears some of the Molyneux followers are capable of making an independent, voluntary choice with their lives.  Surprise!

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The article seems to be laden with hysteria. Who cares?

-Jon

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fezwhatley replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 12:37 PM

The article definately had a nasty tone to it.  Perhaps the boy could have been more open about his feeling toward his family unit with his parents, before leaving. Besides that, the boy is 18, and should be capable of independence.  The article wanted to make a big deal about "but but he's still in school", who cares?, plenty of people go to school and live without their parents at the same time

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Magnus replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 12:45 PM

FDR is a cult huh? Thats wierd, a "cult" that tells it's "followers" to make their own choices in life and to have relationships based on virtue and honesty, a "cult" that doesn't force it's members to pay anything.

 

Whats your definition of a cult? 

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Nitroadict replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 12:47 PM

fezwhatley:

The article definately had a nasty tone to it.  Perhaps the boy could have been more open about his feeling toward his family unit with his parents, before leaving. Besides that, the boy is 18, and should be capable of independence.  The article wanted to make a big deal about "but but he's still in school", who cares?, plenty of people go to school and live without their parents at the same time

I highly doubt that the young man will completely cut himself off communication wise.  He probably will eventually realize, if not already, how hard this would be for his parents, if he eventually becomes one himself or as enough time passes by. 

I've only skimmed the article & I agree that it sadly has the usual high & mighty attitude of someone in the status-quo who thinks they know better than someone else who doesn't want to subscribe to  The Fascist Weekly. 

I think it would be a good thing if the parents were interviewed by a sympathetic reporter, possibly from inside the libertarian movement.   His parents could probably use the moral support in their challenging time of transition.  Interviewing the young man would be good as well, in order to get both sides of the story.

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John Ess replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 1:00 PM

More ridiculous than the hysterical note sent out about Walter Block's recent lecture at Loyola.  Smearbunds are pretty much constant in the libertarian movement over the last few years.

If you actually listened to that podcast about "Tom", what the author is leaving out is the fact that the "boy's" step-father was extremely cruel and physically abusive to him while his mother did nothing about it.  And that that went on for a very long time with no intervention from any adult figure.  Now he is 18 and has left.  That's pretty much the story of all of the very few people who've left their families (usually for college or new jobs that they like better than living at home doing nothing)... basically kids who were beaten or came from religious fundamentalist (like Muslim or Mormon fanatics; not just regular old religious) families.  It's not like the article describes... that they didn't get enough computer time or enough hugs.  Or that he just left out of the principle that parenting in general sucks. The fact that I can even remember this podcast is testament to the fact that not very many kids are "defooing."  And that he doesn't run over these ideas very often.  I certainly do not listen to millions of podcasts.

If they are a cult.  It's news to me -- I post there.  It's news to Wilton Alston, who also posts there.

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This article only give the parent's side of things. What about the young man's side. I know nothing about the situation in which he grew up. I am not implying anything but only having one side of an issue like this in an article is bad journalism to say the least. Would it change your perspective if your found out he was abused as a child? I am NOT saying this happened but the folks at the Guardian should have the resources to send a reporter to the Café and interview him. Find out what he has to say.

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John Ess:

More ridiculous than the hysterical note sent out about Walter Block's recent lecture at Loyola.  Smearbunds are pretty much constant in the libertarian movement over the last few years.

If you actually listened to that podcast about "Tom", what the author is leaving out is the fact that the "boy's" step-father was extremely cruel and physically abusive to him while his mother did nothing about it.  And that that went on for a very long time with no intervention from any adult figure.  Now he is 18 and has left.  That's pretty much the story of all of the very few people who've left their families (usually for college or new jobs that they like better than living at home doing nothing)... basically kids who were beaten or came from religious fundamentalist (like Muslim or Mormon fanatics; not just regular old religious) families.  It's not like the article describes... that they didn't get enough computer time or enough hugs.  Or that he just left out of the principle that parenting in general sucks. The fact that I can even remember this podcast is testament to the fact that not very many kids are "defooing."  And that he doesn't run over these ideas very often.  I certainly do not listen to millions of podcasts.

If they are a cult.  It's news to me -- I post there.  It's news to Wilton Alston, who also posts there.

Just finished reading the "article", of which the bias was disgusting to trudge through.  Although, I find the respect that his mother has for his choice a bit hopeful, even if she mis-understands his position.   Molyneux's psychological explanations and/or assumptions  were obviously magnified & framed , but I find it's valid to object to them regardless. 

I'd imagine quite a number of users on FDR would find it just as  hard to leave their social network of friends if they move to a different geographical location, let alone cutting themselves off from their parents. 

Sadly, I see this as a huge case for further nannying of the Internet, which Obama has recently laid plans for by choosing who is going to be head of the FCC transition; net neutrality is going to muck the internet down for a decade or so until a cyber 9/11 occurs & more or less kills it.

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ryanpatgray:

This article only give the parent's side of things. What about the young man's side. I know nothing about the situation in which he grew up. I am not implying anything but only having one side of an issue like this in an article is bad journalism to say the least. Would it change your perspective if your found out he was abused as a child? I am NOT saying this happened but the folks at the Guardian should have the resources to send a reporter to the Café and interview him. Find out what he has to say.

That's too much work for journalism these days; Integrity is a matter of framing, not a matter of hard work.

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QuestEon replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 1:15 PM

Magnus:

Whats your definition of a cult? 

I've come to the view that there is now about a 40-year-old body of knowledge of cults, what they are, how the recruit, and how they operate.  I'd say the seminal work is Margaret Thaler Singer's "Cults In Our Midst." There have been several good ones since then.

So I don't try to define the world "cult," I try to learn about them from experts. To me, the better question is, after you've absorbed that knowledge and taken a deeply objective view of FDR, do you believe it to be one?

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QuestEon replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 1:16 PM

Nitroadict:

ryanpatgray:

This article only give the parent's side of things. What about the young man's side. I know nothing about the situation in which he grew up. I am not implying anything but only having one side of an issue like this in an article is bad journalism to say the least. Would it change your perspective if your found out he was abused as a child? I am NOT saying this happened but the folks at the Guardian should have the resources to send a reporter to the Café and interview him. Find out what he has to say.

That's too much work for journalism these days; Integrity is a matter of framing, not a matter of hard work.

The article clearly states he refused to be interviewed.

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Nitroadict:
Anyways, I'm sure the Anti-Molyneux fan boys in the community will have some nice schadefreude to read,

I wonder about whom you may be speaking?

I'm in two minds about this article. On the one hand it is a silly article and an unfair one at that, on the other it just reinforces everything I already know about Molyneux, especially his anti religion, anti family bullshit.

I have no sympathy for the boy, I don't really have any sympathy for his parents either. The standard of parenting has dropped significantly, as the state has assumed the role of parent in a number of areas, not to mention the countless other ways in which it has weakened the family structure. The fools at FDR don't really realise that without the state, the family would be the prominent institution.

These silly Molynoids are an embarassment and just help give everybody the impression that libertarians are a childish cult who reject anybody telling them what to do, even if it is their best interest and non coercive in nature. The left libertarians need to stop conflating libertarianism with cultural marxism. In any case, these FDR folk are a bunch of silly, angsty teenage kids who seek help from an arrogant man who thinks of himself as a physchologist/ cult leader, rather than any serious libertarians. So they can live in their family free society, and thank god, as a result they should, if they're true to their own principles (unlike Stefan Molyneux, who as it turns out is having a child, of course he can be a good parent, I wonder to the Molynoids if he could be a good politician too?) die out soon and leave the rest of us in peace.

 

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I think it was Tom's real father, not his stepfather. Moreover, in the podcast he had with Molyneux nothing was said about extremely cruel and physical abuse. His father would get very angry and smash stuff in a room (windows for example), which is bad. But at least in the podcast nowhere was it said that his father physically abused him (or the cat for that matter). Sowhat Tom talks about in the podcast is not at all the same as physically abusing somebody in an extremely cruel way.

if you listen to the podcast referenced in the article you will see how Molyneux leads Tom to a state in which he totally accepts Molyneux saying that he means less than nothing to his parents, that his mother only had him to sacrifice him to the devil (his father), that they both are complete *** of ****es , and so on.

tom was obviously in a distressed state and with childhood memories of his father's extreme anger that is understandable, but Molyneux used this opportunity to completely dehumanize and demonize Tom's parents, to tell him that his parents don't care about him at all, that he means less than nothing to them, that his mother just had him as a sacrificial lamb, all that on the basis of nothing more than his father's ourbursts of rage. Molyneux makes it seem as if there literally was nothing good at all in the relationship, not a single trace of love, kindness, etc. That may be true, but it is impossible for Molyneux to come to this conclusion on the basis of such scant evidence.

And of course he is not in it to get a balanced view. A good therapist would try to do exactl;y that so as to help Tom make sense of his thoughts and feelings. Molyneux just wants to lead him a certain way. and so on, which obivously brings him into a state of anger which is exactly where Molyneux wants him to be. And Molyneux' wife, who is a therapist, at the end gives it all the thumbs-up. it's quite sickening.

Have you ever heard Molyneux have a conversation with a listener about the latter's parents in which his conclusion was not that the listener's parents are stone-evil?

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QuestEon:

Nitroadict:

ryanpatgray:

This article only give the parent's side of things. What about the young man's side. I know nothing about the situation in which he grew up. I am not implying anything but only having one side of an issue like this in an article is bad journalism to say the least. Would it change your perspective if your found out he was abused as a child? I am NOT saying this happened but the folks at the Guardian should have the resources to send a reporter to the Café and interview him. Find out what he has to say.

That's too much work for journalism these days; Integrity is a matter of framing, not a matter of hard work.

The article clearly states he refused to be interviewed.

I wasn't referring to that, that was one of the things the article got right.  I was referring to the underlying assumption in the article that this is a tragedy of some sorts, when the article could have done more into questioning why this was occurring, other than going to easy & lazy route of blaming some huge cult that is dead set to destroy families everywhere with political, philosophical, & psychological doctrine.

I realize they could not interview the young man in question, but they could've interviewed those he knew previously and/or others in the community of FDR about how they view the situation (i.e. too much work).

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Nitroadict:

I realize they could not interview the young man in question, but they could've interviewed those he knew previously and/or others in the community of FDR about how they view the situation (i.e. too much work).

As opposed to Molyneux, who, you know, has no agenda at all that influences his "work".

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

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John Ess replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 1:29 PM

GilesStratton:

Nitroadict:
Anyways, I'm sure the Anti-Molyneux fan boys in the community will have some nice schadefreude to read,

I wonder about whom you may be speaking?

I'm in two minds about this article. On the one hand it is a silly article and an unfair one at that, on the other it just reinforces everything I already know about Molyneux, especially his anti religion, anti family bullshit.

I have no sympathy for the boy, I don't really have any sympathy for his parents either. The standard of parenting has dropped significantly, as the state has assumed the role of parent in a number of areas, not to mention the countless other ways in which it has weakened the family structure. The fools at FDR don't really realise that without the state, the family would be the prominent institution.

These silly Molynoids are an embarassment and just help give everybody the impression that libertarians are a childish cult who reject anybody telling them what to do, even if it is their best interest and non coercive in nature. The left libertarians need to stop conflating libertarianism with cultural marxism. In any case, these FDR folk are a bunch of silly, angsty teenage kids who seek help from an arrogant man who thinks of himself as a physchologist/ cult leader, rather than any serious libertarians. So they can live in their family free society, and thank god, as a result they should, if they're true to their own principles (unlike Stefan Molyneux, who as it turns out is having a child, of course he can be a good parent, I wonder to the Molynoids if he could be a good politician too?) die out soon and leave the rest of us in peace.

 

I love how you pride yourself on have half understandings of things and piss poor reading comprehension skills.

 

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GilesStratton:

Nitroadict:

I realize they could not interview the young man in question, but they could've interviewed those he knew previously and/or others in the community of FDR about how they view the situation (i.e. too much work).

As opposed to Molyneux, who, you know, has no agenda at all that influences his "work".

And the parents I suppose have no agenda at all to influence the perception of their parenting.

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QuestEon replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 1:36 PM

John Ess:
If you actually listened to that podcast about "Tom", what the author is leaving out is the fact that the "boy's" step-father was extremely cruel and physically abusive to him while his mother did nothing about it.  And that that went on for a very long time with no intervention from any adult figure.  Now he is 18 and has left.

I did listen to that podcast. I'll go double-check, because it's been a long time, but I don't recall it that way at all. His father got mad a  couple times and threw things around his office. And he screamed at the cat.  The reporter listened to the podcast, too.  You're accusing her of sweeping knowledge of Tom's child abuse under the rug to make her point.  This is the Guardian--don't you realize the paper's lawyers listened to the podcast too and vetted the article before it was allowed to run?

John Ess:
 That's pretty much the story of all of the very few people who've left their families (usually for college or new jobs that they like better than living at home doing nothing)... basically kids who were beaten or came from religious fundamentalist (like Muslim or Mormon fanatics; not just regular old religious) families.  It's not like the article describes... that they didn't get enough computer time or enough hugs.  Or that he just left out of the principle that parenting in general sucks. The fact that I can even remember this podcast is testament to the fact that not very many kids are "defooing."  And that he doesn't run over these ideas very often.  I certainly do not listen to millions of podcasts.

Could you substantiate that all of his members who have left their families have been the victims of extreme abuse or religious extremists? I don't get that impression.  I believe the idea of leaving one's family in pursuit of Molyneux's version of "truth" is far more frequent than you suggest.

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scineram replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 1:39 PM

I have never listened to his podcasts, which one was this, Conrad?

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GilesStratton:

Nitroadict:
Anyways, I'm sure the Anti-Molyneux fan boys in the community will have some nice schadefreude to read,

I wonder about whom you may be speaking?

I'm in two minds about this article. On the one hand it is a silly article and an unfair one at that, on the other it just reinforces everything I already know about Molyneux, especially his anti religion, anti family bullshit.

I have no sympathy for the boy, I don't really have any sympathy for his parents either. The standard of parenting has dropped significantly, as the state has assumed the role of parent in a number of areas, not to mention the countless other ways in which it has weakened the family structure. The fools at FDR don't really realise that without the state, the family would be the prominent institution.

These silly Molynoids are an embarassment and just help give everybody the impression that libertarians are a childish cult who reject anybody telling them what to do, even if it is their best interest and non coercive in nature. The left libertarians need to stop conflating libertarianism with cultural marxism. In any case, these FDR folk are a bunch of silly, angsty teenage kids who seek help from an arrogant man who thinks of himself as a physchologist/ cult leader, rather than any serious libertarians. So they can live in their family free society, and thank god, as a result they should, if they're true to their own principles (unlike Stefan Molyneux, who as it turns out is having a child, of course he can be a good parent, I wonder to the Molynoids if he could be a good politician too?) die out soon and leave the rest of us in peace.

 



I speak about anyone who likes to instantly hop on to the Collectivist train regarding another individual in a discussion and/or debate.

Some of your bitterness & assumptions are somewhat of an eye-sore, personally, but I respect your right to continue to express them.  I just find it  a bit odd that you are calling, more or less, for the expelling of "Molynoids" from the libertarian movement out of personal preferences, however. 

I do agree though that the family could be a prominent institution, certainly more so without the State, but would that be various definitions of what a family is via various individuals, or just certain ones?

The concept of the traditional family is not dead, but neither are objections and/or alternatives to it either. 

As for an objection to 'cultural marxism', I'm reminded of this:


According to Richard Lichtman, a social psychology professor at the Wright Institute, the Frankfurt School [& by proxy the concept of cultural marxism, which the school helped create]is "a convenient target that very few people really know anything about...."By grounding their critique in Marxism and using the Frankfurt School, [cultural conservatives] make it seem like it's quite foreign to anything American. It takes on a mysterious cast and translates as an incomprehensible, anti-American, foreign movement that is only interested in undermining the U.S." Lichtman says that the "idea being transmitted is that we are being infected from the outside."


Honestly, your objection to cultural marxism amounts to just xenophobia to me : \ .

As for the FDR, let them run off the cliffs like lemmings, if that's how you view them.  Maybe some will eventually realize they don't need to live, breath, & sleep the FDR & move on with their lives. 

Of course, it's a cult, so its' rational to excuse the individuals themselves & assume they are a thriving, threatening collective out to assimilate all, decrying resistance as "futile" & their way the "only way".

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John Ess:
I love how you pride yourself on have half understandings of things and piss poor reading comprehension skills.

Oh, but I don't. So when you stop the ad homs and refute what I say, I'll taker you seriously.

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this one

 

about the last 1/3d of the podcast, and especially the last 20-25 minutes or so

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QuestEon replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 2:00 PM

Nitroadict:
I wasn't referring to that, that was one of the things the article got right.  I was referring to the underlying assumption in the article that this is a tragedy of some sorts, when the article could have done more into questioning why this was occurring, other than going to easy & lazy route of blaming some huge cult that is dead set to destroy families everywhere with political, philosophical, & psychological doctrine.

I realize they could not interview the young man in question, but they could've interviewed those he knew previously and/or others in the community of FDR about how they view the situation (i.e. too much work).

My perspective is the article that you're reading is a result of the reporter's research.  If she had rewritten a chronology of how she researched and wrote the article, perhaps it might have been as you suggest.

A mother calls in and complains that a Web site ate her son. The reporter is skeptical. It's far more likely that something bad has happened in the family. She begins to research a Web site--how could this influence kids to leave their parents? She's surprised to learn from the siblings that they remember a happy childhood.  She talks to cult experts about the techniques of Undue Influence. She logs onto the FDR chatroom to watch Tom's mother attacked by other FDR members. She listens to the podcasts. She reads the books.  She hears the many contradictions in Molyneux's claims ("I don't charge anything for what it is I do"--except FDR is his sole source of revenue.). At some she makes the conclusion it is a cult and it is a tragedy. She writes the article which is thoroughly vetted by attorneys prior to publication. 

Typically, journalists are natural skeptics and I'd tend to wager that's where the research from this article began.

You or I may not agree with her conclusions, but I am inclined to think they were indeed conclusions and not her starting point.

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QuestEon:

Nitroadict:
I wasn't referring to that, that was one of the things the article got right.  I was referring to the underlying assumption in the article that this is a tragedy of some sorts, when the article could have done more into questioning why this was occurring, other than going to easy & lazy route of blaming some huge cult that is dead set to destroy families everywhere with political, philosophical, & psychological doctrine.

I realize they could not interview the young man in question, but they could've interviewed those he knew previously and/or others in the community of FDR about how they view the situation (i.e. too much work).

My perspective is the article that you're reading is a result of the reporter's research.  If she had rewritten a chronology of how she researched and wrote the article, perhaps it might have been as you suggest.

A mother calls in and complains that a Web site ate her son. The reporter is skeptical. It's far more likely that something bad has happened in the family. She begins to research a Web site--how could this influence kids to leave their parents? She's surprised to learn from the siblings that they remember a happy childhood.  She talks to cult experts about the techniques of Undue Influence. She logs onto the FDR chatroom to watch Tom's mother attacked by other FDR members. She listens to the podcasts. She reads the books.  She hears the many contradictions in Molyneux's claims ("I don't charge anything for what it is I do"--except FDR is his sole source of revenue.). At some she makes the conclusion it is a cult and it is a tragedy. She writes the article which is thoroughly vetted by attorneys prior to publication. 

Typically, journalists are natural skeptics and I'd tend to wager that's where the research from this article began.

You or I may not agree with her conclusions, but I am inclined to think they were indeed conclusions and not her starting point.

Perhaps; I have a more cynical view towards journalism, so I admit I am biased in my reception to the article.  I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt if a follow up were done that went more in-depth.

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QuestEon:

Nitroadict:
I wasn't referring to that, that was one of the things the article got right.  I was referring to the underlying assumption in the article that this is a tragedy of some sorts, when the article could have done more into questioning why this was occurring, other than going to easy & lazy route of blaming some huge cult that is dead set to destroy families everywhere with political, philosophical, & psychological doctrine.

I realize they could not interview the young man in question, but they could've interviewed those he knew previously and/or others in the community of FDR about how they view the situation (i.e. too much work).

My perspective is the article that you're reading is a result of the reporter's research.  If she had rewritten a chronology of how she researched and wrote the article, perhaps it might have been as you suggest.

A mother calls in and complains that a Web site ate her son. The reporter is skeptical. It's far more likely that something bad has happened in the family. She begins to research a Web site--how could this influence kids to leave their parents? She's surprised to learn from the siblings that they remember a happy childhood.  She talks to cult experts about the techniques of Undue Influence. She logs onto the FDR chatroom to watch Tom's mother attacked by other FDR members. She listens to the podcasts. She reads the books.  She hears the many contradictions in Molyneux's claims ("I don't charge anything for what it is I do"--except FDR is his sole source of revenue.). At some she makes the conclusion it is a cult and it is a tragedy. She writes the article which is thoroughly vetted by attorneys prior to publication.

me thinks so too.

she's talked to quite a few people, including FDR'ers and Molyneux himself, listened to podcasts, read (parts of) the books, and so on. But the thing is exactly that the deeper you research Molyneux and FDR the scarier things get. Less research would have done Molyneux and FDR more good than more research.

Typically, journalists are natural skeptics and I'd tend to wager that's where the research from this article began.

'cept when it concerns all things government of course

 

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QuestEon replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 2:19 PM

Nitroadict:
As for the FDR, let them run off the cliffs like lemmings, if that's how you view them.  Maybe some will eventually realize they don't need to live, breath, & sleep the FDR & move on with their lives. 
I do think about that--I thought about it before I started this thread. Maybe that's why I started this thread, to discover if that's the more rational approach. You see, I don't really know where Molyneux stands among Libertarians today--if he is waxing or waning. In his view, he is the AnCap thought leader.  But I don't really know if FDR is a significant movement or a curious little backwater. I do think his strength is in explaining known Libertarian concepts. His own ideas rarely stand up to much scrutiny, I think.  To the extent that he is a well-regarded "thinker" within the movement, I feel more embarrassed than anything else.

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QuestEon:

Nitroadict:
As for the FDR, let them run off the cliffs like lemmings, if that's how you view them.  Maybe some will eventually realize they don't need to live, breath, & sleep the FDR & move on with their lives. 
I do think about that--I thought about it before I started this thread. Maybe that's why I started this thread, to discover if that's the more rational approach. You see, I don't really know where Molyneux stands among Libertarians today--if he is waxing or waning. In his view, he is the AnCap thought leader.  But I don't really know if FDR is a significant movement or a curious little backwater. I do think his strength is in explaining known Libertarian concepts. His own ideas rarely stand up to much scrutiny, I think.  To the extent that he is a well-regarded "thinker" within the movement, I feel more embarrassed than anything else.

I view the FDR largely as a curious backwater that leads into the bigger  & possibly more relevant towns, to continue the metaphor.  

Regarding marketing, Molyneux is definitely a well-regarded thinker; it's a feat of his marketing skills that those who listen to him regard him as some great "thinker" in the overall movement.  I wouldn't be surprised if those who thought that were, in the majority, new to FDR or libertarian/anarchist philosophy itself.

I think he gives a good example how the libertarian/anarchist movement has de-centralized groupings and/or sub-movements that do not necessarily reflect the overall movement itself. 

Of course, abusing such for political opportunity & generalizing such thoughts & attitudes in the FDR community is ripe for execution, but political opportunism against the libertarian / anarchist movements is nothing new, either.

"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict

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John Ess replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 3:35 PM

Think about it philosophically.  Not everything is so scientific....

Do you believe that a future population of people who don't live like slaves will also have to drastically different views than the booboise do today about "duty" and "family" (not to destroy them but to make them reflect dignity and not guilt over mere concepts alone)?  So many people today waste their time being exploited.  Nietzsche once said that people should think of the eternal return -- imagine you have to live this life over and over again.  Imagine all the time you waste in bad relationships or with spouses you loved without loving yourself.  Life is too short, really.  Even if the psychologists are not saying what is right for you to do in life (as if any here have ever asked one).  Or the church has no answers.  It doesn't mean there is no deciding.  You should figure out what is right anyway.  Some people will live like slaves and others will not (people "lean" on Molyneux's philosophy, he says, as he did with Rand in the past... Tom no longer even "leans"... he's out in the world not with Molyneux).  Probably the people who are religious think time is infinite and that Tom aught to spend it how he "supposed to" (or probably prefer this because, they've wasted so much time thus far themselves).

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The left libertarians need to stop conflating libertarianism with cultural marxism.

Left-libertarians don't conflate libertarianism with cultural marxism and by and large are not cultural marxists. This in a straw man. Just because one is not a cultural conservative does not mean that one is a cultural marxist. Both cultural marxism and cultural conservatism are incorrect viewpoints from my perspective, because while they work at cross-purposes they both are naive about the effect of political power structures on such cultural relations.

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Juan replied on Sat, Nov 15 2008 9:28 PM
It should be obvious that libertarians are not cultural conservatives and are not cultural marxists -- if anything they are cultural libertarians.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan:
if anything they are cultural libertarians.

Whatever that means.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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John Ess replied on Sun, Nov 16 2008 5:48 AM

It should be noted that the starter of this thread has his own creepy anti-FDR internet forum here:

http://liberatingminds.forumotion.com/freedomainradio-f26/

Notice, how the thread starter tries to act like he's being more objective (like he just read a book about cults and is totally all of a sudden concerned).  When he's probably been talking about this same subject on like 50 different "ancap" boards for months now.  Waiting for the right moment to spring forth to score points with us cool kids at mises, obviously!

 

If there's anything I find funny it's puke-y faux-sanctimony.  Someone should start a forum about how concerned friends and family are for anarchists who have been driven away from the loving hands of the state -- who dehumanize poor helpless politicians. With their Militant Anarchism that budges for none of them.  Spoil sports of tradition!  Who don't take part in the time honored traditions of voting and voting tailgate parties.  Who denigrate nationalism and the slave-holding of Jefferson!   And re-vise the stories of Abe Lincoln's glorious feats!  Who aren't even true to their (public) schools!  Who don't have all action mediated by professionals.  That don't derive all knowledge from statistics and scientism.  That listen to a guy like Lew Rockwell that "ONLY has a bachelors degree, man!" and other non academics (and not Paul Nobel Laureate Krugman, PhD).  Next they're gonna say Joe the Plumber is a real plumber and that the military... sucks.  Maybe they don't even eat chips and watch sports!  Ooooh Our condolences!  Someone should come looking for us.  Someone needs to save us from ourselves!

Enough talk about Molyneux.  I know I know.  We have to get back to theory talk.

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QuestEon replied on Sun, Nov 16 2008 10:37 AM

John, I don't know you very well, but my impression of you from this thread isn't favorable.

I am disturbed that you consistently attempt to deflect any perceived criticism of Molyneux by lying. I wish I could use a better word for it, but I think that's the most accurate one.

First, you lied about the content of the Tom podcast. The account given in the Guardian is accurate.

Next, you lied when you said that only a few people have defooed and those that did were all victims of beatings or religious fundamentalists. (But, produce the numbers, names, and proofs of your assertion and I'll apologize to you.)

Now, you are lying about me:

John Ess:

It should be noted that the starter of this thread has his own creepy anti-FDR internet forum here:

http://liberatingminds.forumotion.com/freedomainradio-f26/

I have no internet forum on any topic anywhere, nor am I a co-administrator, moderator, etc. (Further, in order to lie about me, you have also insulted the adminstrator of that forum and other members who post there by lying about its intent. You deceptively linked to one of the sub-boards of that forum, not the main forum. Shame on you.)

And you've lied about my intentions:

John Ess:

Notice, how the thread starter tries to act like he's being more objective (like he just read a book about cults and is totally all of a sudden concerned). 

On 04-14-2008, on this very board, I was taking the position that Molyneux is not a cult leader.

QuestEon:

In my view, whether Molyneux is developing a cult or not is beside the point. (I don't think he is, for what it's worth.)...

I admit that I have been very interested in Molyneux, first in his philosophy and later in him. I came to my conclusions slowly and (I hope) in a scholarly manner. I read a number of books on cults and and actually had several conversations with a cult exit counselor before reaching the conclusions I hold today.

I would be more insulted by your comments if they weren't so easily shown to be completely fabricated by you.

John Ess:

Enough talk about Molyneux.  I know I know.  We have to get back to theory talk.

Fair enough. Molyneux believes that to pursue a philosophical life, you must constantly strive for virtue and honesty. Those are the first two qualities you happily set aside to defend him.

What's your theory on that?

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QuestEon:
John, I don't know you very well, but my impression of you from this thread isn't favorable.

Don't even both, from what I've seen he reacts this way when his almighty one is challenged.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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That kid is pretty lost. I'm not very knowledgeable about Molyneaux so correct me where I'm wrong, but isn't he just supporting the voluntary rejection of family if you are under conditions which only weaken you as a person or create a difficult life? What exactly makes him a cult leader? I've seen some of his videos, but they usually are just normal marker anarchist talk.

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John Ess replied on Mon, Nov 17 2008 2:48 PM

-----

Fair enough. Molyneux believes that to pursue a philosophical life, you must constantly strive for virtue and honesty. Those are the first two qualities you happily set aside to defend him.

What's your theory on that?

-----

Take it to the "FDR Liberating Minds" forum.   And take Giles Stratton with you.  You'll get no complaints out of me.  You two can investigate Molyneux and save everyone's life.  Tom needs you two now more than ever.  Maybe Giles can bring him to God once he gets "enough room in his life for God" by getting Molyneux out.  Whatever the case, you can curtail your anxiety at the very least.

Don't consider yourself a market anarchist, though, if you think big bad bald guys on the internets can take money and time from people with mind control whereas large corporations are "honest" and are driven by rational economic actors.  It's a dead give away that you do not believe what you say.

Now, back to discussing Austrian economics and not the supposed "threats" from philosophers.

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QuestEon replied on Mon, Nov 17 2008 4:14 PM

John Ess:

QuestEon:

Fair enough. Molyneux believes that to pursue a philosophical life, you must constantly strive for virtue and honesty. Those are the first two qualities you happily set aside to defend him.

What's your theory on that?

Take it to the "FDR Liberating Minds" forum.   And take Giles Stratton with you.  You'll get no complaints out of me.  You two can investigate Molyneux and save everyone's life.  Tom needs you two now more than ever.  Maybe Giles can bring him to God once he gets "enough room in his life for God" by getting Molyneux out.  Whatever the case, you can curtail your anxiety at the very least.

Don't consider yourself a market anarchist, though, if you think big bad bald guys on the internets can take money and time from people with mind control whereas large corporations are "honest" and are driven by rational economic actors.  It's a dead give away that you do not believe what you say.

Now, back to discussing Austrian economics and not the supposed "threats" from philosophers.

This is coming from someone who claims to be one the "cool kids" on Mises. (Your term, not mine.)  Are you really one of the cool kids here?

Unfortunately, you can't ban me here simply for disagreeing with you, though it appears you wish it were so. I have been civil to and respectful of you and will continue to be so.

Civility notwithstanding, however, there's no overlooking the facts. I pointed out five (5) obvious lies you've told on this thread. You've chosen to respond with the same unfounded character assassination you have used from the beginning.

There's only one difference between your last post and this: before, you were a bald-faced liar.

Now you're an unrepentant bald-faced liar.

Is that what the cool kids do here, John? Really?

I find your definition of "cool" confounding, John.

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Magnus replied on Mon, Nov 17 2008 4:24 PM

QuestEon:

John Ess:

QuestEon:

 

Fair enough. Molyneux believes that to pursue a philosophical life, you must constantly strive for virtue and honesty. Those are the first two qualities you happily set aside to defend him.

What's your theory on that?

 

Take it to the "FDR Liberating Minds" forum.   And take Giles Stratton with you.  You'll get no complaints out of me.  You two can investigate Molyneux and save everyone's life.  Tom needs you two now more than ever.  Maybe Giles can bring him to God once he gets "enough room in his life for God" by getting Molyneux out.  Whatever the case, you can curtail your anxiety at the very least.

 

Don't consider yourself a market anarchist, though, if you think big bad bald guys on the internets can take money and time from people with mind control whereas large corporations are "honest" and are driven by rational economic actors.  It's a dead give away that you do not believe what you say.

Now, back to discussing Austrian economics and not the supposed "threats" from philosophers.

 

This is coming from someone who claims to be one the "cool kids" on Mises. (Your term, not mine.)  Are you really one of the cool kids here?

Unfortunately, you can't ban me here simply for disagreeing with you, though it appears you wish it were so. I have been civil to and respectful of you and will continue to be so.

Civility notwithstanding, however, there's no overlooking the facts. I pointed out five (5) obvious lies you've told on this thread. You've chosen to respond with the same unfounded character assassination you have used from the beginning.

There's only one difference between your last post and this: before, you were a bald-faced liar.

Now you're an unrepentant bald-faced liar.

Is that what the cool kids do here, John? Really?

I find your definition of "cool" confounding, John.

If you are done insulting people on this forum, you can take a look at this: http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1210_Guardian_Sunday_Call_In_Show_Nov_16_2008.mp3

It's your favorite podcaster, defending himself against the accusations that some of you trolls here and the guardian have made against him. Listen to it and then reply.

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Magnus:
It's your favorite podcaster, defending himself against the accusations that some of you trolls here and the guardian have made against him. Listen to it and then reply.

So anybody who disagrees with him, is a troll?

Cute.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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