nirgrahamUK: can you spell out what you would 'expect to have seen' as a result of an 'actual' airplane impact? any example footage?
can you spell out what you would 'expect to have seen' as a result of an 'actual' airplane impact?
any example footage?
from Tampa, FL - Bank of America building
this thread is too much ... lol ... isn't this an economics site?
We are the soldiers for righteousnessAnd we are not sent here by the politicians you drink with - L. Dube, rip
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
Finally I can understand the feelings of others confronting holocaust deniers.
bbnet: this thread is too much ... lol ... isn't this an economics site?
Maybe, but if we are comparing the underlying methodology used to investigate economic matters, and the "methodology" most often used for the events of 911 , then the direct relationship between Austrian economic methodology and 911 should be readily apparent.
Unless we are going to insist that LVM's and the Austrian methodology in general has no practical application in the real world outside of economics, and in particular, with regard to the events of 911.
For example, Austrians consistently apply the principles of economic science [outlined in books such as "The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science"], to the statements of mainstream Keynesians, to expose their pie in the sky pronouncements as dangerous logical fallacies [ie they are illogical, not "real world" ].
Von Mises shows us all how to consistently see through such fallacies via the application of deductive reasoning to a position firmly grounded in established economic scientific principles, mostly derived from the classical economists, built on an underlying understanding [ie a foundation] of a theory of human action, to reach conclusions concerning proposed economic policy , results of such policies etc. [after aforementioned deductive reasoning] .
Keynesians in Denial of Austrian Methodology
As we all know, Keynesian economists and mainstream pundits are in denial of Austrian economic methodology, precisely _because_ such methodology exposes their pronouncements as illogical, pie in the sky , fairy tale fallacies.
They simply do not want to hear inconvenient truth about their economic pronouncements.
Austrians In Denial of Austrian Methodology
What I find fascinating is the fact as far as the subject of 911 goes, many "Austrians" appear to be in complete denial of their very own methodology ; that is, they appear willing to forget all about it, and are therefor _unwilling_ to employ their own methodology of broad deductive reasoning, based on well established scientific principle [ in this case Newton's 3rd Law of Motion ,specifically ], to draw conclusions, simply because such a methodology of deductive reasoning based on an understanding of Newton's 3rd Law must lead them to conclusions they do not wish to entertain.
It therefor appears to be more comfortable and convenient for most "Austrians" to choose to believe that planes can routinely fly through 500,000 ton steel and concrete buildings in one piece, without slowing down, and with no parts falling off outside [because that's what the "real" videos show], as well as believe the on camera statements of completely unverifiable "plane witnesses" and the news media in general , and to therefor reach the "normal", safe conclusions concerning 911, than it is to adhere to Austrian methodology in conjunction with knowledge derived from pre- established scientific principle, before reaching any conclusions.
A highly selective employment of their own methodology it seems to me, where unknown, unverifiable witnesses, mainstream TV pundits etc. are to be believed while long established fundamental scientific principle is conveniently and systematically ignored.
Convenience Trumps Reason?
Sadly, for most Austrians, as far as 911 is concerned[ ie outside of economics] ,convenience trumps reason and methodological principle - just as it does within the field of economics and economic calculation for Keynesians, monetarists, etc.
Another reason I call myself "post -Austrian"?
For more information about onebornfree, please see profile.[ i.e. click on forum name "onebornfree"].
i understand newtons 3rd law of motion. maybe you dont.
Apparently he doesn't understand Praxeology either.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
he also believes in the possibility of investment advice worth some $$$ despite the advisor not being able to make any claim about the world of tomorrow......
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Juan:Whoa. What a cute appeal to emotion...Next step could be to smear skeptics as anti-semites or something ?
What's anti semitic about holocaust denial anyway?
nirgrahamUK:i understand newtons 3rd law of motion. maybe you dont.
What's anti semitic about holocaust denial anyway ?
GilesStratton: Juan:Whoa. What a cute appeal to emotion...Next step could be to smear skeptics as anti-semites or something ? What's anti semitic about holocaust denial anyway?
there isnt a logical entailment, just a noteworthy empirical correllation
nirgrahamUK:there isnt a logical entailment, just a noteworthy empirical correllation
I think it's just a smear to keep down investigation into an area that is very much in need of it.
it might be doing double duty as a smear and a contingent fact.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north687.html
These dialogues show that Gary North is a private money advocate.
TheOrlonater: http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north687.html These dialogues show that Gary North is a private money advocate.
Are you saying that I believe he is not, or are you making another point perhaps?
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: "i was hoping for the banhammer to fall." I figured. How, er, open-minded and, er "libertarian"of you :-)
"i was hoping for the banhammer to fall."
I figured. How, er, open-minded and, er "libertarian"of you :-)
How idiotic, er, idiotic of you. I didn't bother to read the meat of the thread, but how exactly does 911 tie into Austrian economics; and how does Austrian economics tie into LewRockwell.com (LRC)? I don't see how it is necessary to be an Austrian in order to get publiched on LRC. In fact, probably half of the articles published on LRC are by Austrians. Hell, you don't even need to be anti-state to be published on LRC. You do understand the difference between LRC and LvMI, right?
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
Daniel:You do understand the difference between LRC and LvMI, right?
I'm not trying to be an ass but I would like to hear the differences.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
8+ pages and nobody has asked the only interesting thing worth knowing in this thread:
Given that 1) the year is 2009 and 2) you are not a pirate, what's the deal with the eyepatch?
"The men the American public admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." -H.L. Mencken
sapSUCKER: 8+ pages and nobody has asked the only interesting thing worth knowing in this thread: Given that 1) the year is 2009 and 2) you are not a pirate, what's the deal with the eyepatch?
How much is that information worth to you?
Daniel: onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: "i was hoping for the banhammer to fall." I figured. How, er, open-minded and, er "libertarian"of you :-) How idiotic, er, idiotic of you. I didn't bother to read the meat of the thread, but how exactly does 911 tie into Austrian economics; and how does Austrian economics tie into LewRockwell.com (LRC)? I don't see how it is necessary to be an Austrian in order to get publiched on LRC. In fact, probably half of the articles published on LRC are by Austrians. Hell, you don't even need to be anti-state to be published on LRC. You do understand the difference between LRC and LvMI, right?
So by your own admission, you have not read most of the thread, but you _have_ drawn conclusions, and passed judgement already about its content, my thoughts etc., correct?
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: Daniel: onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: "i was hoping for the banhammer to fall." I figured. How, er, open-minded and, er "libertarian"of you :-) How idiotic, er, idiotic of you. I didn't bother to read the meat of the thread, but how exactly does 911 tie into Austrian economics; and how does Austrian economics tie into LewRockwell.com (LRC)? I don't see how it is necessary to be an Austrian in order to get publiched on LRC. In fact, probably half of the articles published on LRC are by Austrians. Hell, you don't even need to be anti-state to be published on LRC. You do understand the difference between LRC and LvMI, right? So by your own admission, you have not read most of the thread, but you _have_ drawn conclusions, and passed judgement already about its content, my thoughts etc., correct?
One does not need to read your theories to judge your behavior, methinks.
"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: TheOrlonater: http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north687.html These dialogues show that Gary North is a private money advocate. Are you saying that I believe he is not, or are you making another point perhaps?
You said he was a state money guy, I proved otherwise.
TheOrlonater: onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: TheOrlonater: http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north687.html These dialogues show that Gary North is a private money advocate. Are you saying that I believe he is not, or are you making another point perhaps? You said he was a state money guy, I proved otherwise.
I did? Could you show me where?
Why do I have the impression that a humorous and harmless post I made just got deleted?
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: OK, OK ! I give up! I'm a fraud, a charlatan! You are more "Austrian" than I am [even though I never claimed to be "Austrian" in the first place] - you know more about Austrian economics than I do, you know more "real" "Austrians" than I do, you've read more "Austrian" books than I have,you know more latin than I do, hell , you are even a better person than I am! I "fail remarkably"- Yay! Are you happy yet?
OK, OK ! I give up! I'm a fraud, a charlatan! You are more "Austrian" than I am [even though I never claimed to be "Austrian" in the first place] - you know more about Austrian economics than I do, you know more "real" "Austrians" than I do, you've read more "Austrian" books than I have,you know more latin than I do, hell , you are even a better person than I am! I "fail remarkably"- Yay!
Are you happy yet?
If your intention is to 'spread the word' about your conspiracy, please move on to another forum.
If your intention is to learn about Austrian economic theory, Libertiarianism/Anarchism/Stateslessness/Philosophy, please stick around. If you choose to stick around, please stop claiming you have 'been there, done that', because you will certainly piss a lot of people off. Many of Austrians have spent a lot of time, and dedicated there lives to the principles with which you apply the prefix 'post' to.
I sincerely hope you choose to stick around and learn something.
Best regards,
Pablo
Oh no another 911 Truther ignorant of basic physics. FYI fire does not have to get hot enough to melt steel but simply weaken it below it's load bearing capacity. Hollow aluminum and composites aircraft hitting reinforced steel and concrete is not going to leave the same sized hole ect...
I keep my 911 Truther debunking facts handy...
Debunking The 9/11 Myths (Popular Mechanics)How the Loss of One Column May Have Led to the Collapse of WT7 (PDF) (Structure Magazine)NIST WTC 7 Investigation Finds Building Fires Caused Collapse (NIST)Purdue University's 9/11 Computer Visualization (Video) (Purdue University)Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation (Thomas W. Eagar, Professor of Materials Engineering and Engineering Systems, MIT)
"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises
I actually think the "no-towers" theory is the most plausible.
And I have evidence! Don't listen to the media, sheeple!
AnalyticalAnarchism.net - The Positive Political Economy of Anarchism
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Sage: I actually think the "no-towers" theory is the most plausible. And I have evidence! Don't listen to the media, sheeple!
hah
What?
Thats a joke, right?
AnarchomarxistLibertaria:Well hello from a fellow Post-Austrian Anarcho-Marxist
Anarcho-Marxist? Oxymorons are interesting.
Laughing Man: AnarchomarxistLibertaria:Well hello from a fellow Post-Austrian Anarcho-Marxist Anarcho-Marxist? Oxymorons are interesting.
It's not an oxymoron either by defintion or by mutual exclusivity. Marxism, Austrian Economics, and Anarchism are perfectly synthesizable.
Eg. see: http://www.mutualist.org/id10.html
I don't want to get into it, but some of those sources are rubbish.
Poptech: Oh no another 911 Truther ignorant of basic physics. FYI fire does not have to get hot enough to melt steel but simply weaken it below it's load bearing capacity. Hollow aluminum and composites aircraft hitting reinforced steel and concrete is not going to leave the same sized hole ect... I keep my 911 Truther debunking facts handy...
Popular Mechanics was tore up by that Libertarian radio show host from Arizona (his name eludes me, he is off the air now).
The NIST report on WTC7 is also rubbish and widely disputed.
There have been international studies regarding the traces of thermate found in the wreckage. Thermate cannot have arrived there accidentally.
For the record, I am not a truther, but I certainly don't trust the government story, and I think that it is possible the US government would do it. No proper investigation was ever done. NIST stalled on the WTC7 for a long time, and their report contrasts interviews from Barry Jennings who was in the building just prior to it coming down.
Anyway, people are so polarized on this. I just hate people trying to show "official evidence" that is not peer reviewed and then claim it is absolute fact. That is why global warming scare mongering is out of control. People embrace the science that fits their position, and not the other way around.
Steve Jones is a physicist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones
Neils Harrit is a chemist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o&fmt=18
This is the vanguard of scholarly 9/11 skepticism. http://www.stj911.org/
One mistake people make, is they take truther arguments from half baked nutjobs (like PopMechanics did) and then debunk the nut theories, and claim this disproves 9/11 truth period. I hate crap like that.
Charles Goyette. Found the interview. http://www.911podcasts.com/files/audio/A003I060823-am-c3.MP3
Give it a listen. It's a good takedown of some real bullshit.
Again, I don't know what happened. I don't trust government, and I certainly don't trust Bush or Cheney. I don't even really care anymore.
But anyone who claims THEY KNOW for sure (one way or another) is probably full of crap.
AnarchomarxistLibertaria:Marxism, Austrian Economics, and Anarchism are perfectly synthesizable.
Marxist class theory is incompatible with Austrian Economics.
AnarchomarxistLibertaria: It's not an oxymoron either by defintion or by mutual exclusivity. Marxism, Austrian Economics, and Anarchism are perfectly synthesizable.
Either you a lacking in a knowledge of Marxism, Austrian Economics or Anarchism, but perhaps all three. Marxism can be loosely defined as the workers (a single class) owning the means of production, Marx specifically combated with Anarchists like Bakunin and Proudhon believing they were simpletons in wanting to eliminate the state apparutus. Austrian economics propogates that lassie-faire capitalism is a morally correct system of economics based on voluntary exchange and private property rights. Now if you were to say Austrian economics and Anarchism can go together then I would agree with you. However to think that lassie-faire capitalism and communalism of the means of production can go hand and hand is really just absurd. Couple that with the belief that Marxism and Anarchism can go together then you are really debasing yourself into a field of constant contradiction and illogical remarks.
liberty student:Marxist class theory is incompatible with Austrian Economics.
Rothbard talked about these characters and I was always curious to see who they were. I knew of the nihilist Lachmannians but I have meet my first 'Austrian-Marxist'
Laughing Man:Rothbard talked about these characters and I was always curious to see who they were. I knew of the nihilist Lachmannians but I have meet my first 'Austrian-Marxist'
Mutualists. Kevin Carson is the fella with the notions about an Austro-Marxist synthesis.
Unfortunately, their obsession with exploitation and anti-capitalism makes it really difficult to reconcile their ideas with anarcho-capitalism.
liberty student: AnarchomarxistLibertaria:Marxism, Austrian Economics, and Anarchism are perfectly synthesizable. Marxist class theory is incompatible with Austrian Economics.
Not entirely. Marxist class awareness does not conflict with Austrian Economics. However, it is not entirely relavent. A synthesis of Marxism and Anarchism or Marxism and Austrian Economics does not require that every node of every subset of sociology, philosophy, praxeology, etc of each system be identical. Rather, a synthesis involves the combining of fruitful nodes to create a new system. Post-Austrian Anarcho-Marxism is not merely the sum of all those three systems. It is something new. If you are actually interested in it, please see The Center for a Stateless Society, various mutualist blogs, certain Rothbard essays on corporatism, or the link to the essay by Kevin Carson I provided in the previous post.
AnarchomarxistLibertaria:Not entirely. Marxist class awareness does not conflict with Austrian Economics. However, it is not entirely relavent.
So the revolution of the proletariat and their subsequent communalizing of the means of production does not conflict with lassie-faire capitalism? Interesting.
AnarchomarxistLibertaria:A synthesis of Marxism and Anarchism or Marxism and Austrian Economics does not require that every node of every subset of sociology, philosophy, praxeology, etc of each system be identical. Rather, a synthesis involves the combining of fruitful nodes to create a new system.
Ah, so you bastardize the three systems, take what you like without maintaining consistency and fail to see the contradiction in the matter. One would think that in creating a new system you would not take on the names of the three systems which you neglected to fully embrace.
Laughing Man: AnarchomarxistLibertaria: It's not an oxymoron either by defintion or by mutual exclusivity. Marxism, Austrian Economics, and Anarchism are perfectly synthesizable. Either you a lacking in a knowledge of Marxism, Austrian Economics or Anarchism, but perhaps all three. Marxism can be loosely defined as the workers (a single class) owning the means of production, Marx specifically combated with Anarchists like Bakunin and Proudhon believing they were simpletons in wanting to eliminate the state apparutus. Austrian economics propogates that lassie-faire capitalism is a morally correct system of economics based on voluntary exchange and private property rights. Now if you were to say Austrian economics and Anarchism can go together then I would agree with you. However to think that lassie-faire capitalism and communalism of the means of production can go hand and hand is really just absurd. Couple that with the belief that Marxism and Anarchism can go together then you are really debasing yourself into a field of constant contradiction and illogical remarks.
Personally attacking your fellow discussant is always the best way to engage in useful conversation. Always.
Your loose definitions of Marxism are not relevant. I am not a 'Marxist.' I am a Post Austrian Anarcho-Marxist. Austrian economics does not necessarily propogate the morality of any system. Communal ownership of the means of production exists today within nominally capitalist systems. There is no reason why non-coerced communal ownership of the factors of production is incompatible with either Austrian economics or anarchism. Please see the link I provided in the previous post if you are actually interested in the synthesis of Anarcho-Marxism and Austrian economics.