Hello From a "Post- Austrian",Anarcho-Capitalist ,Taoist, 911 "No- Planer".
I'm a "newbie" here- although not a newbie as far as Austrian economic theory goes.
I was a member of the LVM institute back in the mid 80's through mid 90's, [before the internet] and have read most Von Mises as well as Rothbard, Menger et al.
Post -Austrian? [perhaps the only one in the world?]
However, although I still read Lewrockwell.com daily, I no longer call myself "an Austrian", but "post- Austrian" instead.
This is because I believe that Austrian economics has become largely corrupted with persons with, for me, irrelevant, political "change the world" agendas and such like.
Or maybe it has always been that way and I've just grown out of it/become more aware of it.
Also, maybe it's just me, but I see many prominent "Austrians" posting at L. Rockwells' site expressing views that I see as inconsistent with the lessons of Mises and Rothbard, in the areas of government, banking, fiduciary media, and most of all, the area of economic prediction [mostly for investment purposes].
Taoist?
Philosophically, I see Austrian economics as a specific application of Taoism and Taoist philosophy, as has sometimes been pointed out on Rockwell's site.
So for those of you with a label fetish,maybe I'm a "post- Austrian Taoist".
911"No- Planer"?
A 911 "no- planer" is someone who believes in the "no- plane theory" [NPT] for the events of 911.
That is, briefly: that no planes crashed in to WTC1, WTC2, the Pentagon, and more than likely, not into the ground at Shanksville PA either.
However, crazy as it may seem, for me , the "T" in NPT stands for "truth" not "theory"!
Three "Austrian" 911 No- Planers"
At this time I know of only two other "Austrian" [or post- Austrian!]s who believe in NPT version of events for 911: Morgan Reynolds, a sometime contributor for Lewrockwell.com, and "Ace Baker" an independent 911 researcher - so there are at least 3 of us "no-planers" within the "Austrian" community!
I have no desire, or need to convert others to NPT, although I will be happy to discuss it in a sensible manner with anyone here who is curious about such seemingly outrageous views concerning the events of 911.
I hope that my NPT views are not going to get me banned "right off the bat" here. ;- [
Yours, onebornfree.
For more information about onebornfree, please see profile.[ i.e. click on forum name "onebornfree"].
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:Also, maybe it's just me, but I see many prominent "Austrians" posting at L. Rockwells' site expressing views that I see as inconsistent with the lessons of Mises and Rothbard, in the areas of government, banking, fiduciary media, and most of all, the area of economic prediction [mostly for investment purposes].
Examples, please.
Abstract liberty, like other mere abstractions, is not to be found.
- Edmund Burke
laminustacitus: Examples, please.
Beat me to it.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:A 911 "no- planer" is someone who believes in the "no- plane theory" [NPT] for the events of 911.that no planes crashed in to WTC1, WTC2, the Pentagon,
so you believe any passengers that boarded flights 175, 11, 77 that day are still alive, on a beach somewhere, sipping drinks with elvis, talking about how it was much easier to fake the moonlanding in between fits of denying the holocaust. and all those people that were walking around new york, looked up and saw planes flying into building were shit crazy or part of the conspiracy.
is that what you believe? 'briefly'?
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
"Examples, please."
Off the top of my head, any article that predicts future economic events based on current actions. Also anyone who advocates a government-run gold standard.
For example,regarding future economic events, any "Austrian" who predicts that right now things in general _must_ get worse because of fed actions, government bailouts etc. etc., and gives out investment advice based on such conclusions and supposed certainties about the future.
One of the very last chapters of Human Action specifically warns against forecasting future economic events based on perceived current actions, or based on anything else, for that matter.
The biggest offenders in this regard are Gary North [who appears to have learned nothing about humility from his failed prediction for catastrophe back when he swore up and down that it must occur because of the supposed computer clock time/date foul-up when the time and date 12.01 am. January 2000 was reached], and Michael Rozeff.
The truth is, the future is unknowable, the economy might further tank next month, or it might turn around and recover, despite what we think we know about Austrian economic theory.
If you need more specific examples [North, Rozeff etc.let me know [.
contra, that, if Mises says 'the government has turned off the printing press and so the hyperfinflation will end" he has predicted a future event based on perceived current actions and so is a rotten economist.
"so you believe any passengers that boarded flights 175, 11, 77 that day are still alive, on a beach somewhere, sipping drinks with elvis, talking about how it was much easier to fake the moonlanding in between fits of denying the holocaust. and all those people that were walking around new york, looked up and saw planes flying into building were shit crazy or part of the conspiracy. is that what you believe? 'briefly'? "
Already a note of testiness I see? Why exactly?
If you were able to engage in non-derogatory open-minded discussion then I might be willing to discuss the events of 911 with you, after establishing what we might agree on as actual physical events for that day[ i.e what you think you know vs what I think I know].
As your open-mindedness and general attitude appears to be in question at this point I am simply going to direct you to some of my many blogs on this subject. e.g.:
http://onebornfree.blogspot.com/2008/10/shortest-simplest-most-devastating-most.html
and: http://onebornfree.blogspot.com/2008/07/truth-no-planes-hit-wtc-1-2-or-pentagon.html
both articles do not even mention let alone address issues of , passengers on planes. who have dead relatives dont ya know?
and common, everyday folk, that walked around new york streets ,who saw planes hitting towers.
you get me about as testy as if you had told me, that the olympics really werent in china last time around, and that Mises was a native american indian.
"contra, that, if Mises says 'the government has turned off the printing press and so the hyperfinflation will end" he has predicted a future event based on perceived current actions and so is a rotten economist."
Rotten investment advisor and yes, a rotten [or at the least hypocritical] economist _if_ he said that. Are you saying that that is what he has actually said, or are you being hypothetical?
Rothbard:As the chief economic adviser to the Austrian government in the 1920s, Mises was single-handedly able to slow down Austrian inflation
from rothbard bios of mises here
http://mises.org/about/3248
what exactly did you mean when you said you were a member of LvMi in the 80s and 90s?
"both articles do not even mention let alone address issues of , passengers on planes. who have dead relatives dont ya know?
you get me about as testy as if you had told me, that the olympics really werent in china last time around, and that Mises was a native american indian."
Whatever.
If you freely choose to believe , uncorroborated heresay "witness evidence" and out of court testimony [ie not under oath , no witness cross examination available], over hard physics, that is your choice.
"what exactly did you mean when you said you were a member of LvMi in the 80s and 90s?"
Why is that important to you?
its important to me because when people try to tell me stuff i like to have an idea what it means.
do you mean it in the sense that there are currenty 275faculty member, or did you mean it in some other sense.
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:ncorroborated heresay "witness evidence"
point of fact, if lots of people make the statement, i was in new york and looked out of my window and saw planes hitting the wtc, when all the statements point to the same conclusion and are not inconsistant this is Corroborated.
and nothing magic happens when witness speak 'in court', unless you believe that bibles give magical truth inducement powers.
"point of fact, if lots of people make the statement, i was in new york and looked out of my window and saw planes hitting the wtc, when all the statements point to the same conclusion and are not inconsistant this is Corroborated.
and nothing magic happens when witness speak 'in court', unless you believe that bibles give magical truth inducement powers."
Like I said, If you freely choose to believe uncorroborated heresay, so-called "witness evidence" and out of court testimony [ie not under oath , no witness cross examination available], over hard physics, that is your choice.
And if you believe that nothing "magical" can happen in court when supposed reliable witnesses are rigorously cross examined [and that therefor, such procedures are not even necessary] - again, your choice!
i hope the mods on this board choose you.
What is this argument even about?
"i hope the mods on this board choose you."
What exactly do you mean ?
"What is this argument even about?"
Argument? Who? What? where? [ I would appreciate if you, as a moderator, reviewed my initial and subsequent posts and informed me as to whether I have so far posted anything deemed inflammatory or derogatory and liable to get me banned- thank you.]
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:What exactly do you mean ?
i was hoping for the banhammer to fall.
"i was hoping for the banhammer to fall."
I figured. How, er, open-minded and, er "libertarian"of you :-)
nirgrahamUK: onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:What exactly do you mean ? i was hoping for the banhammer to fall.
Yeah, this guy's a troll.
Please take your cockamamie 9/11 theories elsewhere. I'd rather not see mises.org littered with such nonsense.
phrizek: nirgrahamUK: onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:What exactly do you mean ? i was hoping for the banhammer to fall. Yeah, this guy's a troll. Please take your cockamamie 9/11 theories elsewhere. I'd rather not see mises.org littered with such nonsense.
Please read my opening post in its entirety. In part it says:
" I have no desire, or need to convert others to NPT, although I will be happy to discuss it in a sensible manner with anyone here who is curious about such seemingly outrageous views concerning the events of 911."
In other words, I am perfectly happy to not discuss the events of 911, "cockamamie" or otherwise.
I mentioned 911 initially because its part of my background and may be of interest to some here, perhaps not.
If you are unable to engage in polite discussion about 911 or anything else[eg economic/investment/political theory] here and would like to further "flame" me in a "discussion" elsewhere, you may freely do so at my blog. Have a nice day.
well thats that then. have a nice day
I'm not banning him, however much I disagree with his views. Not banning until he commits an offence punishable worth being banned for, that is.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
You come in here, blatently plugging your own blog, with an aire of condescending superiority and you expect to be welcomed?
The Austrians here are well aware of the concept of governments allowing and profiting from crises. Over the top theories only lead to alienation - especially if you're not only going to question the existence of the pentagon plane, but *all* of them? please.
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: In other words, I am perfectly happy to not discuss the events of 911, "cockamamie" or otherwise.
Then don't discuss it in the first place. Over half of your original post is dedicated to these 9/11 theories, and while you are quick to post links to (pretty silly IMO) blogs to prove your case, you immediately revert to a defensive, fingers-in-ears position whenever somebody calls you out on how preposterous it is. That kind of behavior, along with your username and plugs about your blog, give people the impression that you are a troll. And even if these 9/11 theories are "part of your background" it's best to leave that kind of baggage on 9/11 truther sites (of which I am sure there are plenty) where they belong. This forum is for discussing things relevant to AE, not proselytize about fringe conspiracy theories. Even if I believed that the moon was actually a giant hunk of swiss cheese, I wouldn't want to come in here and brag about it. From the way it was presented, your post was made with the intention of baiting people to talk about these 9/11 theories, so you can't reply here after the fact that you were perfectly happy not to discuss these events in the first place.
If you want to come here and contribute to the healthy discussion about AE, then welcome. But if you want to come here to lecture us about 9/11 theories, "Post-Austrian" enlightenment, and plug your blog, don't expect to find people greeting you with open arms.
phrizek: But if you want to come here to lecture us about 9/11 theories, "Post-Austrian" enlightenment, and plug your blog, don't expect to find people greeting you with open arms.
Other members have posted about 9/11 conspiracy theories. In fact one of the most recent topics concerns that matter. I don't see why it is beyond the realm of libertarianism to debate whether or not the government could have executed 3000 of their own citizens for the benefit of the corporate elite.
GilesStratton: phrizek: But if you want to come here to lecture us about 9/11 theories, "Post-Austrian" enlightenment, and plug your blog, don't expect to find people greeting you with open arms. Other members have posted about 9/11 conspiracy theories. In fact one of the most recent topics concerns that matter. I don't see why it is beyond the realm of libertarianism to debate whether or not the government could have executed 3000 of their own citizens for the benefit of the corporate elite.
Discussing whether 9/11 was perpetrated by elements within the government is fundamentally different from claiming that there were no planes involved in the actual attack.
phrizek:Discussing whether 9/11 was perpetrated by elements within the government is fundamentally different from claiming that there were no planes involved in the actual attack.
Different? Perhaps, fundamentally so? Not quite.
phrizek: onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: In other words, I am perfectly happy to not discuss the events of 911, "cockamamie" or otherwise. Then don't discuss it in the first place. Over half of your original post is dedicated to these 9/11 theories, and while you are quick to post links to (pretty silly IMO) blogs to prove your case, you immediately revert to a defensive, fingers-in-ears position whenever somebody calls you out on how preposterous it is. That kind of behavior, along with your username and plugs about your blog, give people the impression that you are a troll. And even if these 9/11 theories are "part of your background" it's best to leave that kind of baggage on 9/11 truther sites (of which I am sure there are plenty) where they belong. This forum is for discussing things relevant to AE, not proselytize about fringe conspiracy theories. Even if I believed that the moon was actually a giant hunk of swiss cheese, I wouldn't want to come in here and brag about it. From the way it was presented, your post was made with the intention of baiting people to talk about these 9/11 theories, so you can't reply here after the fact that you were perfectly happy not to discuss these events in the first place. If you want to come here and contribute to the healthy discussion about AE, then welcome. But if you want to come here to lecture us about 9/11 theories, "Post-Austrian" enlightenment, and plug your blog, don't expect to find people greeting you with open arms.
OK, I 'm perfectly happy to not discuss the events of 911 with yourself, if you wish. I think here are plenty of none- 911 related subjects that I touch on/hint at in my initial post that you might feel more comfortable exploring- or not- your choice.
Others here, perhaps more open minded and not so inclined to seek to ban viewpoints here that they disagree with for no reason other than _that_ they disagree with them, may wish to discuss my seemingly outrageous point of view on this matter [911] - if so they will question me about it regardless of yours and other naysayers in this thread opinions on that matter, given the moderators tentative approval so far [thankyou moderators].
"If you want to come here and contribute to the healthy discussion about AE, then welcome. But if you want to come here to lecture us about 9/11 theories, "Post-Austrian" enlightenment, and plug your blog, don't expect to find people greeting you with open arms."
Sorry, but I'm not up for what you may or may not subjectively deem to be "healthy" or unhealthy regarding Austrian economics, or anything else for that matter. And if anyone is doing any "lecturing" here so far, it would appear to be you, as far as I can see.
P.S. I'm not here to be greeted with open arms- and I have no interest in yours, or anyone elses, acceptance, or rejection of anything I might say.
"Other members have posted about 9/11 conspiracy theories. In fact one of the most recent topics concerns that matter. I don't see why it is beyond the realm of libertarianism to debate whether or not the government could have executed 3000 of their own citizens for the benefit of the corporate elite."
Thank you.
GilesStratton: phrizek:Discussing whether 9/11 was perpetrated by elements within the government is fundamentally different from claiming that there were no planes involved in the actual attack. Different? Perhaps, fundamentally so? Not quite.
Let me illustrate this with an example. It's the difference between discussing whether the moon landing was fabricated by the government, and claiming that the rocket, the astronauts, the launchpad, the landing craft, the re-entry pod, and everyone who witnessed and/or took part in this event were actually complex holograms. Here's another one. Discussing whether Nero conspired to burn Rome to the ground vs. arguing that the flames were actually a well-crafted illusion courtesy of Jupiter. If you can't see a fundamental difference in the nature of these claims, go back to the beginning of this paragraph and read it again.
Also, just to interject some opinion here, I believe that it is best to refrain from discussing 9/11 theories on these forums, even if they may have been discussed before. I've witnessed first hand how an association with these types helped to marginalize and discredit Ron Paul during his campaign a while back, and I would rather not want Austrian Economics, and its flagship on the internet, mises.org, perverted and marginalized in the same way. I understand that some people might hold these views, and I can't stop you from discussing them, but try to understand that you are not helping the cause of making our views mainstream by associating them with fringe conspiracies that are generally poorly regarded. This is my opinion, and you are free to disagree.
Now I hope this thread dies. I've wasted enough time on it already and I have to get back to my Hoppe reading.
"Over the top theories only lead to alienation - especially if you're not only going to question the existence of the pentagon plane, but *all* of them? "
Ignoring your other[ irrelevant ] comments, are you saying that you _do_question the story about a plane crashing into the Pentagon?
phrizek:Also, just to interject some opinion here, I believe that it is best to refrain from discussing 9/11 theories on these forums, even if they may have been discussed before. I've witnessed first hand how an association with these types helped to marginalize and discredit Ron Paul during his campaign a while back, and I would rather not want Austrian Economics, and its flagship on the internet, mises.org, perverted and marginalized in the same way. I understand that some people might hold these views, and I can't stop you from discussing them, but try to understand that you are not helping the cause of making our views mainstream by associating them with fringe conspiracies that are generally poorly regarded. This is my opinion, and you are free to disagree.
Don't think I disagree with you. I think that conspiracy theories are at best a dead end. It would be far better to attribute 9/11 to the U.S. sanctions on Iraq and military bases in Saudi Arabia than it would be to claim that the U.S. government did, nonetheless I think that the members of the forum should be allowed to discuss the possibility of the latter.
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom: One of the very last chapters of Human Action specifically warns against forecasting future economic events based on perceived current actions, or based on anything else, for that matter. The biggest offenders in this regard are Gary North [who appears to have learned nothing about humility from his failed prediction for catastrophe back when he swore up and down that it must occur because of the supposed computer clock time/date foul-up when the time and date 12.01 am. January 2000 was reached], and Michael Rozeff. The truth is, the future is unknowable, the economy might further tank next month, or it might turn around and recover, despite what we think we know about Austrian economic theory.
For the sake of clarity, realize that you are really trying to portray yourself as a "true Austrian" and North & Rozeff as "false Austrians". Being "post-Austrian" (which would imply that you yourself have changed your mind) has nothing to do with it.
Austrian Theory of the Business Cycle in 9 steps (Soliciting comments)
This is a joke. Only it's not funny.
It's people like you who spread the disinfo, that give those who reasonably question the offical version of events, a bad name.
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:"I have no desire, or need to convert others to NPT."
Good, because I've heard it all before and it's delusional. Btw, don't take this is as a queue to delve into your pet fantasy theory.
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:I'm a "newbie" here- although not a newbie as far as Austrian economic theory goes. I was a member of the LVM institute back in the mid 80's through mid 90's, [before the internet] and have read most Von Mises as well as Rothbard, Menger et al.
What have you read? How'd you find out about LvMI? Who do you know from back in the day?
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:Post -Austrian? [perhaps the only one in the world?] However, although I still read Lewrockwell.com daily, I no longer call myself "an Austrian", but "post- Austrian" instead. This is because I believe that Austrian economics has become largely corrupted with persons with, for me, irrelevant, political "change the world" agendas and such like.
Fallacious.
What part of Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito, do you NOT understand?
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:Or maybe it has always been that way and I've just grown out of it/become more aware of it.
Yes. Quite clearly the problem is you and not anyone else.
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:Also, maybe it's just me, but I see many prominent "Austrians" posting at L. Rockwells' site expressing views that I see as inconsistent with the lessons of Mises and Rothbard, in the areas of government, banking, fiduciary media, and most of all, the area of economic prediction [mostly for investment purposes]. If you need more specific examples [North, Rozeff etc.let me know.]
If you need more specific examples [North, Rozeff etc.let me know.]
Give it all. No holds barred, dish it all out. So far, you have been amazingly unconvincing.
I wanted the thread to gie, but I couldn't resist.
I did entertain the possibility of the pentagon plane being perhaps smaller - who knows - I frankly don't care. I've relegated much of the Zeitgeist movie to the "uncited tripe" file.
I checked out your site.
I find the bullets penetrating steel metaphorical argument absurd. The airspeed argument was refuted as well.
I find this guy more convincing. http://www.youtube.com/user/alawson911
I think concrete conspiracy theory leaves you open to ridicule and the possibility of being wrong - simply accepting the fact that states use crises to expand power with public opinion is sufficient. It is adaquate theory for me that they weren't shot down.
"For the sake of clarity, realize that you are really trying to portray yourself as a "true Austrian" and North & Rozeff as "false Austrians". "
You could well be right.
However, as the majority of "Austrians" appear to wish to use economic theory to predict inflation, deflation, economic catastrophe etc. , and to push for political ends [such as abolish the Fed, elect Ron Paul, install a gold standard etc.], I think it prudent to separate myself from those persons and allow them to continue calling themselves "Austrian", while I prefer the term "post Austrian" for myself.
If you wish to label me as "true Austrian" however, so be it.
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:However, as the majority of "Austrians" appear to wish to use economic theory to predict inflation, deflation, economic catastrophe etc. , and to push for political ends [such as abolish the Fed, elect Ron Paul, install a gold standard etc.],
What, exactly, is wrong with this?
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:I think it prudent to separate myself from those persons and allow them to continue calling themselves "Austrian", while I prefer the term "post Austrian" for myself.
Why are you a true Austrian? I do not understand what is so objectionable about people's political beliefs being informed by their economic beliefs.