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Sukrit Posted: Mon, Apr 20 2009 8:26 AM

It'd be neat if all Aussies could say hello here. Add me as a friend on Mises.

I'm living in Melbourne by the way.

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W00t! I'm a Sydneysider myself. Living in Brazil at the moment but plan on returning this year.

Any Mises Institutes in oz, btw?

Austrians do it a priori

Irish Liberty Forum 

 

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Conza88 replied on Mon, Apr 20 2009 10:09 PM

Yep I'm here. Smile

With my Mises.org books in the mail.

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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DanielMuff replied on Mon, Apr 20 2009 11:24 PM

I'm not Aussie, but can I still say hewwo?

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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Jayjay replied on Mon, Apr 20 2009 11:49 PM

It'll be interesting to see how many are actually lurking around.The media in Australia seems incredibly biased towards the state...I can barely read the paper anymore.

Perth here.

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Jayjay:

It'll be interesting to see how many are actually lurking around.The media in Australia seems incredibly biased towards the state...I can barely read the paper anymore.

Perth here.

Hopefully we'll be able to do something about that. Smile

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Jayjay:
It'll be interesting to see how many are actually lurking around.The media in Australia seems incredibly biased towards the state...I can barely read the paper anymore.

Look at it this way.  You fellas are the vanguard of Australia's intellectual revolution.  Smile

 

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Curlz31 replied on Tue, Apr 21 2009 3:52 AM

Hello folks. Melbourne here.

Has anyone else noticed that the guy named Conza is kind of a buzzkill?

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Conza88 replied on Tue, Apr 21 2009 5:31 AM

Curlz31:
Hello folks. Melbourne here.

Has anyone else noticed that the guy named Conza is kind of a buzzkill?

Yeah, what is his problem? lol Big Smile

liberty student:
Look at it this way.  You fellas are the vanguard of Australia's intellectual revolution.  Smile

Yeah there is also Frank Shostak, Chris Leithner, Chris Brown and Ben O'Neill.

Another positive way to look at things is that we have far less statists / socialists to overcome.

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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I'm from New Zealand, which is (as I'm often told) 'close enough'.

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Curlz31 replied on Tue, Apr 21 2009 8:22 AM

a platonic charisma:
I'm from New Zealand, which is (as I'm often told) 'close enough'.

ANZACs, free movement of peoples, same heritage, same basic culture.

They are right.

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Conza88:

Another positive way to look at things is that we have far less statists / socialists to overcome.

Hi there Conza88 and all! Steve here from Brisbane.

We have less statist/socialists? Compared to what? We seem to have a Hayek-hating socialist despot as a leader at the moment. I don't hear too make folks saying "no please, please don't send me the $900". And I certainly do hear folks saying "but of course the government should subsidise child care". This applies to much of the "middleclass welfare" such as the family payments. I also hear outrage that the government hasn't already coffed up for maternity leave - I mean, after all, all the other socialist countries have it! :). Australians seem to barely think about these issues and when they do I guess they console themselves that "the rich will pay".

Sorry, feeling a bit dark today as the government just effectively admitted to encouraging a whole bunch of folks into buying a first home at the beginning of the first recession for 18 years. What's more the IMF say it'll be long and deep. I imagine that the government will now avoid the "D" word for a few months (that's D for depression, not deflation).

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Conza88 replied on Tue, Apr 21 2009 11:42 PM

Steven Shaw:

Hi there Conza88 and all! Steve here from Brisbane.

We have less statist/socialists? Compared to what? We seem to have a Hayek-hating socialist despot as a leader at the moment. I don't hear too make folks saying "no please, please don't send me the $900". And I certainly do hear folks saying "but of course the government should subsidise child care". This applies to much of the "middleclass welfare" such as the family payments. I also hear outrage that the government hasn't already coffed up for maternity leave - I mean, after all, all the other socialist countries have it! :). Australians seem to barely think about these issues and when they do I guess they console themselves that "the rich will pay".

Sorry, feeling a bit dark today as the government just effectively admitted to encouraging a whole bunch of folks into buying a first home at the beginning of the first recession for 18 years. What's more the IMF say it'll be long and deep. I imagine that the government will now avoid the "D" word for a few months (that's D for depression, not deflation).

lol yes. The comparision was to the United States. See our population totalling roughly 20 million and theirs is roughly 300. But yeah, I know what you mean. We haven't got an open tradition of Individualism, but I think there are a lot of people out there who have never been offered the message of Liberty and that are open to it. Ron Paul woke a lot of people up and it's our job to further the cause.

Smile

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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Jayjay replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 2:23 AM

We are indeed the "lucky country", in the sense that without our abundance of resources we would be well and truely in the shitter by now. We may have less to overcome as far as sheer numbers go, but on a per capita basis, I have no doubt in my mind that Australians are far more statist than Americans.

We don't even have a Bill of Rights! In other words, our constitution offers no protection of rights and freedoms. We're just lucky the state hasn't decided to take more away (so far).

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Jayjay:
We don't even have a Bill of Rights! In other words, our constitution offers no protection of rights and freedoms. We're just lucky the state hasn't decided to take more away (so far).

Same problem here in Canada mate.  I love how our government likes to revise our Charter of "Rights and Freedoms" on the fly, as though fundamental rights change over time.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Conza88 replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 2:57 AM

Jayjay:
We may have less to overcome as far as sheer numbers go, but on a per capita basis, I have no doubt in my mind that Australians are far more statist than Americans.

We don't even have a Bill of Rights! In other words, our constitution offers no protection of rights and freedoms. We're just lucky the state hasn't decided to take more away (so far).

Sedition laws.. no way of succession with the States... yeah I'm sure we could both go on all day about it.. Ick! lol

The average citizen is a middle of the roader from what I see. They think Communism / Socialism is wrong & doesn't work but so is extreme capitalism etc. It is the false left / right paradigm in action.

I think there is a lot of room for success, with a third party candidate - integrity, honesty, intelligence, charisma (Replica of Ron Paul essentially) who could help spread the message & kickstart a revolution.

The starting point is getting the remnant together. Which should be taking place shortly. Then systems are go! Big Smile

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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Jayjay replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 3:27 AM

Conza88:
The average citizen is a middle of the roader from what I see. They think Communism / Socialism is wrong & doesn't work but so is extreme capitalism etc. It is the false left / right paradigm in action.

That's what I've observed too. Although there are still far more socialists than libertarians, just look at the green movement...There was an article in the paper today by the leader of one of these groups arguing that we need to lower Australia's population from 21 million to 7 million if we're to have any chance of saving the environment. She suggested a 1 child policy, enforced by the state.

For some reason these radical leftist arguments make the paper, but libertarian ones get filtered out by the editors.

To succeed in Australia I think we need a very moderate approach...we have to start slowly. Perhaps just critiquing individual policy decisions, avoiding any mention of anarchy or even minarchy. Any kind of 'radical' thinking is sure to end the debate there and then for most Australians.

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Jayjay:
To succeed in Australia I think we need a very moderate approach...we have to start slowly. Perhaps just critiquing individual policy decisions, avoiding any mention of anarchy or even minarchy. Any kind of 'radical' thinking is sure to end the debate there and then for most Australians.

My two cents.

If you self-censor, you have already lost.  You can present a positive, inspirational case without compromising on radicalism.  In fact, that is what libertarians worldwide need to improve upon.  Making radical thinking simple, digestable, enjoyable.

Stake out a position, and don't move back to the middle.  You will draw people to you.  Unlike socialism or progressive statism, the message of liberty has real power.  It explains the world and the activity of man, without making it about shame or guilt.  It encourages people to be their best not their worst.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Sukrit replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 5:04 AM

I agree with liberty student.

The moderate approach has already been tried by our two "free-market" think-tanks - the Centre for Independent Studies and the Institute of Public Affairs. They have failed miserably.

Everyone thinks of them as "conservative" think tanks! Do we really want to be known as conservatives?

No! We want to be known as libertarians - anti-war, anti-State, pro-market. Do not be afraid to be radical. In the long-run, it will be more effective.

Murray Rothbard wrote an essay about precisely this topic, however I can't be bothered digging it up...

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Sukrit replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 5:10 AM

By the way, a bill of rights is not a libertarian measure. All it does is shift the power of decision-making to unelected judges.

Moreover, it has no affect on the upholding of human rights. America has the worst human rights record of ANY Western nation, yet it's also the one with the Bill of Rights supposedly guaranteeing fundamental freedoms.

All a bill of rights does is make citizens complacent.

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Jayjay replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 5:31 AM

I have to disagree. I think it's one of the reasons why Rothbard has had much less of an influence than other libertarian thinkers (on the general population that is); his work is far too extreme for the layman and is instantly dismissed as 'radical'. You can't just throw Rothbard at people and expect it to stick, you have to ease them in to it. Gradually open their eyes to the failures of the state and get them questioning their own beliefs, only then will they be receptive to the works of people such as Rothbard.

While we don't utilise ad hominem attacks, the statists most definitely do and to good effect. It's important not to be labelled an extremist; unfortunately in the real world you won't get published in newspapers or have much of an audience for your ideas if people perceive you as some anarchist wacko. Maybe it's different in the US, but that's generally how it is in Australia, at least from my perspective.

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Conza88 replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 5:44 AM

Jayjay:

I have to disagree. I think it's one of the reasons why Rothbard has had much less of an influence than other libertarian thinkers (on the general population that is); his work is far too extreme for the layman and is instantly dismissed as 'radical'. You can't just throw Rothbard at people and expect it to stick, you have to ease them in to it. Gradually open their eyes to the failures of the state and get them questioning their own beliefs, only then will they be receptive to the works of people such as Rothbard.

While we don't utilise ad hominem attacks, the statists most definitely do and to good effect. It's important not to be labelled an extremist; unfortunately in the real world you won't get published in newspapers or have much of an audience for your ideas if people perceive you as some anarchist wacko. Maybe it's different in the US, but that's generally how it is in Australia, at least from my perspective.

Sell Out and Die by Murray N. Rothbard
http://tinyurl.com/5f25rb

The Case for Radical Idealism by Murray N. Rothbard
http://mises.org/story/1709

Why Be Libertarian? by Murray N. Rothbard
http://tinyurl.com/ddw8m5

On Resisting Evil by Murray N. Rothbard
http://tinyurl.com/dxj4a7

Isaiah's Job by Albert Jay Nock
http://tinyurl.com/2gz8gv

Left and Right: The Prospects for Liberty by Murray N. Rothbard
http://tinyurl.com/cjlbe8

Ending Tyranny Without Violence by Murray N. Rothbard
http://tinyurl.com/cvmptu

United We Fall by Frank Chodorov
http://tinyurl.com/cnqf72

Toward a Theory of Strategy for Liberty by Murray N. Rothbard
http://mises.org/story/2651

These might be worth looking at.

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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Jayjay:
I think it's one of the reasons why Rothbard has had much less of an influence than other libertarian thinkers (on the general population that is);

It's a shame that's not true.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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Hi from the Sunshine Coast.

 

I wish Australia had even a vocal minority of liberty loving people, like America does. The media over here is unbearable. *sadface*

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Sukrit Sabhlok:

Murray Rothbard wrote an essay about precisely this topic, however I can't be bothered digging it up...

I came across your blog today. You had a post on a Murray Rothbard article called "Why be Libertarian?". It was a good read. It argued for radicalism. I'm sold but I came to it slowly myself. I am still trying to "verify freedom" from an economic standpoint. I am not an economist and there are many what I call "tough questions". It's difficult to believe when you're coming at it from a utilitarian point of view - one has to be very knowledgable and very certain/confident. I recently came across the argument from morality from Stefan Molyneux's Freedomain Radio and listening to Rothbard's For a New Liberty. I am hoping there is a succinct ethical argument in the Ethics of Liberty which I haven't listened to yet. It may be possible to increase the Libertarian ranks with a succinct argument from morality (particular at a time when so much immorality is going around).

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Danneracci:

Hi from the Sunshine Coast.

I wish Australia had even a vocal minority of liberty loving people, like America does. The media over here is unbearable. *sadface*

Well I am gladdened by the number of people replying in this post.

Since searching for an organisation or society like "campaign for liberty" in the US, I have found The Australian Libertarian Society and Liberal Democratic Party. I haven't been impressed with either. The ALS is certainly not friendly place to post - they seem like a bunch of kids and libertines. Maybe they just like to get stuff off their chest after a tough day at work as an economist or whatever :). In any case, it's not a friendly place for newcomers to the ideas of liberty (particularly if you find Rothbard enticing).

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Not sure on the bill of rights. I found this website recently which says we have 4.

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Sukrit replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 8:45 AM

The Australian Libertarian Society (ALS), the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP), Centre for Independent Studies and the Institute of Public Affairs are not libertarian organizations. They are, at best, "free-market" organizations. And even that isn't certain. Who knows how much resistance they will offer if the government decides to socialize the economy to pay for a war?

I used to blog for the ALS, however I left due to the warmongering and arrogant anti-intellectual attitude. Similarly, I ran as a candidate for the LDP in the 2007 federal election, however once I discovered their national executive is stacked with neo-cons, I realized that they didn't really understand what liberty was all about.

Thankfully, Australians now have a real libertarian alternative - www.la.org.au.

In Jayjay's terminology, La.org.au would be "radical", while the CIS, IPA, LDP, ALS would be "moderate". But the moderate organizations think it's OK for America/Australia/Britain to go around killing people in foreign countries at random! So I'd much prefer to be a radical at this point, for the sake of thousands of innocent lives.

We need to build a movement based around Austro-libertarian ideas to wake the public up. That's what's missing in Australia. We've got enough people preaching watered down libertarianism.

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Sukrit replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 9:02 AM

By the way, I'm not suggesting that there aren't any good people working at the above organizations, or that one shouldn't make friends and work with them where possible.

It's just important that Austro-libertarians forge their own path, because Ron Paul has proved that radical ideas are the only way to energize the masses.

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Jayjay replied on Wed, Apr 22 2009 9:16 AM

Please don't put words in my mouth Sukrit. I'm not suggesting we avoid "radical" websites such as la, I'm just saying that when addressing a public audience you have to tune it down a notch, get them interested and give them a basic understanding, before unleashing full-on Rothbard (as an example). It's a means to and end, not the end itself.

In other news, has anyone got more information about the Rudd Army? I wonder how long until this becomes compulsory?

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Curlz31 replied on Sat, Apr 25 2009 10:22 AM

You people do realise that according to the (albeit Semi-Neocon) Heritage Foundation, Australia is better than the US on Economic Liberty.

In fact we are third behind only Hong Kong and Singapore.

Of course, the most free countries are all the common law, former British colonies, but the UK itself has dropped down because it is being engulfed by the socialists in the EU.

Take a look http://heritage.org/index/

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Sukrit replied on Sun, Apr 26 2009 11:12 PM

Yeah, but Curlz, those rankings are not entirely accurate. I recall some criticism by some Australian free-market economists about how they were overly generous to John Howard's labour market "deregulation" (sic).

In any case, America is a richer country than Australia. It also possess more social freedom (e.g. gun rights), although I agree it's going downhill fast.

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Curlz31 replied on Fri, May 1 2009 10:46 PM

True Sukrit. But I think its a mixed bag.

Our GDP per capita is only slightly less than the US and our national debt per capita is much less

US public debt per capita stands at US$37,000

Australian public debt per capita stands at US$7000

I think we are in a very fortunate position to do alot better here in Australia. Plus the propaganda machine is not as ingrained and impenetrable here.

 

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Great list Conza mate!  Pass me a Fosters and half of your vegemite sammy!

So, you wallabies reckon Australian Economics will take off down under?

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Avram replied on Sun, May 3 2009 9:28 PM

Hey everyone, sydneysider here.

 

Glad to know we're not alone.

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Curlz31 replied on Mon, May 4 2009 7:34 AM

liberty student:
So, you wallabies reckon Australian Economics will take off down under?

 

Hmmm. Only 2 letters difference Geeked

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Conza88 replied on Mon, May 4 2009 8:48 AM

liberty student:

Great list Conza mate!  Pass me a Fosters and half of your vegemite sammy!

Haha, thanks. I do have a passion for justice & self righteousness. As no doubt a lot of folks here do. Strategy for Liberty is one of the things I am most interested in.

liberty student:
So, you wallabies reckon Australian Economics will take off down under?

That's the plan Stan! Big Smile Sedition laws here we come... ! lol

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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Sukrit Sabhlok:

It'd be neat if all Aussies could say hello here. Add me as a friend on Mises.

I'm living in Melbourne by the way.

I'm not an Aussie but none the less you reminded me of  a funny Monty Python sketch

[no offense intended!] :  "Hello Bruce, this is Bruce...."

********************************************************************************************

Hello From a "Post- Austrian", Anarcho-Capitalist ,Taoist, 911 "No- Planer":

Onebornfree's Financial Safety Reports

 

For more information about onebornfree, please see profile.[ i.e. click on forum name "onebornfree"].

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Conza88:

Strategy for Liberty is one of the things I am most interested in.

Looks like that story moved:

http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/thirty.asp

 

 

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Sukrit replied on Sat, Oct 31 2009 3:03 AM

Not sure if it was mentioned above, but Liberty Australia is our version of Campaign for Liberty/Mises Institute. Check it out!

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