DD5: Well, I wish you were an advocate of the state. With freedom advocates like you, who needs Socialists? It's better to learn about your product before trying to sell it.
Well, I wish you were an advocate of the state. With freedom advocates like you, who needs Socialists?
It's better to learn about your product before trying to sell it.
Thank you for making my point, your arrogance achieves nothing. Your goal is obviously to create enemies of freedom. Which isn' t me by the way, I am more interested in the practical application of freedom than you will ever dream about.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Maxliberty: DD5: Well, I wish you were an advocate of the state. With freedom advocates like you, who needs Socialists? It's better to learn about your product before trying to sell it. Thank you for making my point, your arrogance achieves nothing. Your goal is obviously to create enemies of freedom. Which isn' t me by the way, I am more interested in the practical application of freedom than you will ever dream about.
The socialist will use a strawman argument to attack free markets. You are using one to defend it. Myths don't require a defense, but exposure and refutation.
If you believe they are not myths, you should have been able to address my remarks instead of just reiterating the same position over and over again.
Maxliberty: liberty student: Hermes on the day of your death:The rest of you are as fanatical as the Taliban. Think carefully before you post again. Are you threatening violence LS? Or is he to be banned for comparing your fanaticsm (in his mind) to another group?
liberty student: Hermes on the day of your death:The rest of you are as fanatical as the Taliban. Think carefully before you post again.
Hermes on the day of your death:The rest of you are as fanatical as the Taliban.
Think carefully before you post again.
Are you threatening violence LS? Or is he to be banned for comparing your fanaticsm (in his mind) to another group?
Maxliberty sounds confused.
Maxliberty: The point is simple, the short term matters to people. The idea that everything will be ok in the long run is fine but people do make decisions based on the short term and to pretend only the long term matters is misguided.
The point is simple, the short term matters to people. The idea that everything will be ok in the long run is fine but people do make decisions based on the short term and to pretend only the long term matters is misguided.
I save money. I have gardens. I am cutting wood now for winter. I am making repairs on the wood burner now actually. And much much more... all for the future. I think you only think short term and are short-sighted. I think YOU are generalizing what other people do. It's called projecting. Now anything else you would like to share?
wilderness: Maxliberty sounds confused.
He is confused. He thinks I read and care about what he writes.
Ive been banned before "liberty" student. I can handle it.
But thanks for further proving that u are one of the few on here who can take criticism, and a true practitioner of liberty.
If you think the people who use government to exploit people won't do the same in the free market you are just an ideologue. I can agree with those who say they won't last long. But I would have to say to them that they must remember that these are real people's lives that will be battered in the process.
I'm more of a Corporate Avenger freedomist; no borders or forced education, end the drug war, make governance no more expensive then need be, reduce or diminish the effect of the money power in politics. Yet I still believe that a strong defensive force, contract enforcement, equality under the law, encouraging ownership, and a social safety net are critical to the functioning of a strong society. And if we must have taxes I prefer either progressive policy, or a flat tax on only the top 20% of incomes.
Im asking you to recognize that I come to find how we can work together for a better tomorrow. If we could get past our petty biases we could go to progs providing vision and hope, and libs (you according to the real definition of eco lib) providing guidance and frugality. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we don't all have a role to play.
that thanks was to max liberty. He is correct when he says that it seems to us progs that u coddle the "innocent" businessman.
You support taxation, positive societal obligations and the institution of sword and fire. By chance where is this 'better tomorrow' among these platforms? How do you legitimize the robbery of individuals, the coercion of their actions and an institution which from the dawn of man has periodically slaughtered its own citizenry or at the very least hamper onto them a lifestyle of pseudo-slavery? Honestly, what do you offer other then platitudes and a despotic lifestyle we already live under? You frolic around these forums like a caped 'crusader' passing on the title of 'true practioner of liberty' yet try to rationalize the institution of government as somehow just. If that be your 'liberty' then I pity those who earn your title.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
Hermes on the day of your death:Ive been banned before "liberty" student. I can handle it.
I hope you haven't been banned here before, because ban dodging is an automatic re-ban. Now you have an incentive to definitely not send me scurrying to cross reference accounts. Btw, I already banned the second Hermes account you registered when you created this one.
Hermes on the day of your death:If you think the people who use government to exploit people won't do the same in the free market you are just an ideologue.
That is a strawman.
Hermes on the day of your death:I'm more of a Corporate Avenger freedomist; no borders or forced education, end the drug war, make governance no more expensive then need be, reduce or diminish the effect of the money power in politics.
Basically for small tyranny. No thanks. Not interested in picking new masters with the same democratic tripe supposedly securing freedom while undermining everything.
Hermes on the day of your death:Yet I still believe that a strong defensive force, contract enforcement, equality under the law, encouraging ownership, and a social safety net are critical to the functioning of a strong society. And if we must have taxes I prefer either progressive policy, or a flat tax on only the top 20% of incomes.
Why are you here? You're clearly not a minarchist. You're not an anarchist. You don't seem to be an austrian, or have any knowledge about economics. You definitely seem to support the state, in fact, reading between the lines, you support basically what already exists.
I can only speak for myself, but I think a good many here may agree. I don't want your society and I don't recognize it. I want freedom. Nothing less will do. So I don't care about your taxes, social safety nets, or military. They are meaningless to me. The only way you can get me to participate, is to enslave me under the threat of force, like a rapist with a knife to the throat of his victim.
You call it dating, but it's still rape.
So if you can live with perpetuating theft and violence, if you can reconcile your ideal world with such immoralities, then good for you. But I don't think such an ideology has a home here. Maybe somewhere else, where the focus is not on laissez-faire, free markets, and the scholarship of liberty.
liberty student: You definitely seem to support the state, in fact, reading between the lines, you support basically what already exists.
Anarchist Cain: Honestly, what do you offer other then platitudes and a despotic lifestyle we already live under?
Are we like hardwired together by logic?
The difference there is no defense against those in government, they are the courts...
Hermes on the day of your death:But I would have to say to them that they must remember that these are real people's lives that will be battered in the process.
That would be the responsibility of those "real" people, I am ready to survive, quite well, this is what I like to call being prepared, are there other things I would like to do, sure, but I will eat, drink, have shelter and goods to trade. This is the difference between a responsible person and one that is not responsible, those that are not will usually fail, and making it a burden on those that are responsible is morally wrong.
Hermes on the day of your death:Yet I still believe that a strong defensive force, contract enforcement, equality under the law, encouraging ownership, and a social safety net are critical to the functioning of a strong society.
Hermes on the day of your death:And if we must have taxes I prefer either progressive policy, or a flat tax on only the top 20% of incomes.
Why? The other 80% never earned it...
Hermes on the day of your death:Im asking you to recognize that I come to find how we can work together for a better tomorrow.
The fundamental difference is I veiw a better tomorrow as one where people who believe in social responsibility do not rob people who believe in personal responsibility by way of government, and unfortunately that is wholly inconsistent with your view of a better tomorrow.
Hermes on the day of your death:If we could get past our petty biases we could go to progs providing vision and hope
I would like you to go to them and explain they have no right to my property, that is my vision, and that they should shut up and let people live their lives as they see fit, that is my hope...
Hermes on the day of your death:and libs (you according to the real definition of eco lib) providing guidance and frugality.
I think the guys here do a good job by explaining the system you support is immoral, and they should not enable it...
Hermes on the day of your death:Just because we disagree doesn't mean we don't all have a role to play.
Your role, it is to be wrong...
It sounds like the ocean, smells like fresh mountain air, and tastes like the union of peanut butter and chocolate. ~Liberty Student
Harry Felker:The difference there is no defense against those in government, they are the courts...
Is Harry Felker becoming an....anarchist?
liberty student: I can only speak for myself, but I think a good many here may agree. I don't want your society and I don't recognize it. I want freedom. Nothing less will do. So I don't care about your taxes, social safety nets, or military. They are meaningless to me. The only way you can get me to participate, is to enslave me under the threat of force, like a rapist with a knife to the throat of his victim. You call it dating, but it's still rape.
No, as you can see you speak for me too...
I must have been channeling you, I almost went with the rape analogy....
Anarchist Cain: Harry Felker:The difference there is no defense against those in government, they are the courts... Is Harry Felker becoming an....anarchist?
I have many to blame for my change in opinion....
Harry Felker:I have many to blame for my change in opinion....
I blame Liberty_Student. He hangs out with girls whose skirts don't go past their knees. Plus I hear he spits on sidewalks. A troublemaker indeed.
If you think the people who use government to exploit people won't do the same in the free market you are just an ideologue. I can agree with those who say they won't last long.
Sounds like a strawman...
Yet I still believe that a strong defensive force, contract enforcement, equality under the law, encouraging ownership, and a social safety net are critical to the functioning of a strong society. And if we must have taxes I prefer either progressive policy, or a flat tax on only the top 20% of incomes.
All of which the government fails at.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
Anarchist Cain: Harry Felker:I have many to blame for my change in opinion.... I blame Liberty_Student. He hangs out with girls whose skirts don't go past their knees. Plus I hear he spits on sidewalks. A troublemaker indeed.
I hang out with a girl that thinks clothing laws are a rights violation...
What does that make me...
My Fiance started the ball rolling, she got me here, then the community challenged my minarchism, the final straw was the Sage thread, Laughing Man referred to it so I read the material....
I encourage you to stop your logical research for a few days while you learn of the scientific process. Then maybe you will understand why none of the scholarly community take you seriously. Logic is good, unless its all you do, then you can explain ANYTHING logically.
And those things I listed will have to be provided regardless of the structure of the state. Read history and learn that those are the fundamentals of a strong and growing civilization. If they are weakened, either by governance itself, or by other private parties, so will we see a weakening of our society.
Last thing I would have to say is; you catch more flies with honey. I am desperately trying to find something I can agree with you on, or that will change my mind to your perspective. Reading Mises is fun, cool, and informative. He is spot on in much of his analysis. But then I look at the majority of his supporters and... ugh; I see a community lacking in empathy for those who may have never learned a way to be responsible and productive.
I just dont see how you can fundamentally oppose government yet fail to place blame at the feet of the owners of our government. You blame the politicians themselves? Do you not realize they serve a higher master?
Hermes on the day of your death:I encourage you to stop your logical research for a few days while you learn of the scientific process. Then maybe you will understand why none of the scholarly community take you seriously. Logic is good, unless its all you do, then you can explain ANYTHING logically.
ha ha!
Hermes on the day of your death:I see a community lacking in empathy for those who may have never learned a way to be responsible and productive.
and another ridiculous strawman. the thing about you is that your 'empathy' for those less well off amounts to outright positive acts of evil against the 'better off' (taxation) and outright 'negative' acts of evil against those who you are supposedly empathising with (destruction of capitalism and so retarding their future prospects plus welfare trap etc etc.)
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
liberty student: wilderness: Maxliberty sounds confused. He is confused. He thinks I read and care about what he writes.
Since you have declared me your mortal enemy, I am sure you hang on my every word.
I know; "its a private forum where we dont appreciate criticism." I just appreciate your support of freedom, yet I question your motives and fanatacism. Forgive me for being a realist in saying that we will never rid ourselves of government. T'would be better served finding a way to reconcile this "necessary evil."
Just a funny side note, Id like to hear your thoughts. The game world of warcraft has a marketplace with no taxes, social programs, and the like. It really has no rules to speak of. Yet there are ninjas all over the place waiting to steal your goods, and they get away with it (Blizzard doesnt ban for doing). Sure, most know not to trust JrDevious (one of the biggest ninjas), so he just groups with new people who dont know who he is, and proceeds to steal whatever he can before he is caught. This is the problem we would face in a libertarian society.
Hermes on the day of your death: I just dont see how you can fundamentally oppose government yet fail to place blame at the feet of the owners of our government. You blame the politicians themselves? Do you not realize they serve a higher master?
Give ideas so reason can play with them otherwise you're as any other person that thinks they are right and everybody is wrong. The lecturer closing the world around himself. If you can't put your opinion into something that any intellect can grasp I think you're merely shouting or crying or both or something else, but you're definitely not providing any thought. So this post is to inspire your reasoning to flourish cause I'm not seein' it happen yet.
Hermes on the day of your death: I know; "its a private forum where we dont appreciate criticism." I just appreciate your support of freedom, yet I question your motives and fanatacism. Forgive me for being a realist in saying that we will never rid ourselves of government. T'would be better served finding a way to reconcile this "necessary evil."
Lazy opinion, and I mean "lazy" in that this speaks of your effort in trying to bring justice to what is evil.
Hermes on the day of your death: Just a funny side note, Id like to hear your thoughts. The game world of warcraft has a marketplace with no taxes, social programs, and the like. It really has no rules to speak of. Yet there are ninjas all over the place waiting to steal your goods, and they get away with it (Blizzard doesnt ban for doing).
Just a funny side note, Id like to hear your thoughts. The game world of warcraft has a marketplace with no taxes, social programs, and the like. It really has no rules to speak of. Yet there are ninjas all over the place waiting to steal your goods, and they get away with it (Blizzard doesnt ban for doing).
lol... Well if ninjas are around and allowed to steal, then there is no justice and liberty is completely about justice and law. Figure out stealing is wrong and you're getting somewhere.
Hermes on the day of your death: Sure, most know not to trust JrDevious (one of the biggest ninjas), so he just groups with new people who dont know who he is, and proceeds to steal whatever he can before he is caught. This is the problem we would face in a libertarian society.
Sure, most know not to trust JrDevious (one of the biggest ninjas), so he just groups with new people who dont know who he is, and proceeds to steal whatever he can before he is caught. This is the problem we would face in a libertarian society.
No. That's the problem of a ah... video game called Warcraft...lol And since you know of this JrDevious why aren't you stopping him? Where's your justice now?
Maxliberty:Since you have declared me your mortal enemy, I am sure you hang on my every word.
You're unimportant to me.
Am I the higher master? As a master, I would like to relieve these government servants of their duty. Can you assure me that if I do, they won’t show up at my doorstep with guns?
Hermes:no borders or forced education, end the drug war, make governance no more expensive then need be, reduce or diminish the effect of the money power in politics. Yet I still believe that a strong defensive force,
Harry Felker: Laughing Man referred to it so I read the material....
I am laughing man....
Which one was it? Lysander Spooner's No Treason?
Juan: Hermes:no borders or forced education, end the drug war, make governance no more expensive then need be, reduce or diminish the effect of the money power in politics. Yet I still believe that a strong defensive force, Are you talking about the military ?
No, im with Washington in seeing a standing army as an offensive force. Or at least a large standing army. I like the idea of the national guard and the reserves as our federal defensive force. Or maybe a nationwide militia styled after the structure of a volunteer fire dept. But in no way do I support allowing generals to privatize their armies; Ive seen what that did to Rome.
DD5: Hermes on the day of your death: I just dont see how you can fundamentally oppose government yet fail to place blame at the feet of the owners of our government. You blame the politicians themselves? Do you not realize they serve a higher master? Am I the higher master? As a master, I would like to relieve these government servants of their duty. Can you assure me that if I do, they won’t show up at my doorstep with guns?
Ha! I doubt you have the kind of influence to be a personal master of our political environment. You can have influence if part of the mob (people not gangsters). But it is the wealthy elite that I speak of. I know it's a sin to attack our "most productive citizens," (who most just happened to be the descendant/ancestor of someone productive. Im not as suspicious of the Bill Gates new money as I am of the Rockefeller old money) but they are our true leaders. And i see no talk on this site of the influence they have or the detrimental action they employ.
Ever wonder why "socialists" think you are just justifying your greed and callousness towards the poor? It is becuase you always defend the rich. Or call welfare recipients thieves and leeches. Thats like defending the preppy in school against the nerd, or helping an able-body beat up a cripple, it just doesnt seem right.
Ive not stolen anything since I was a child, and even then it was just candy and shit like that from stores (which i have attoned for and would not encourage). Yes, I understand stealing to be a very bad action to take. (But, in Robin Hood cases; I don't really consider it stealing if you had a right to it in the first place. And food, education, and necessary healthcare are rights [life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, governments are instituted among men to secure these rights, deriving their just power from the consent of the governed]).
And I do what I can to stop Jr. When I see him posting invites I call him out as a ninja. I tell people not to trust him. Any farther than that, there is nothing I can do.
Blizzard's policy is that it is your fault for allowing him into your group/guild in the first place. you should have prepared yourself.
Hermes on the day of your death:It is becuase you always defend the rich
we defend the innoccent rich, and condemn the guilty rich. are you capable of making distinctions?
Hermes on the day of your death: Or call welfare recipients thieves and leeches
there are welfare recipients that are thieves and leeches and there are those that are not. but statists, socialists, and those that advocate and administer welfare are criminal and disingenous.
Hermes - Jefferson :[life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, governments are instituted among men to secure these rights, deriving their just power from the consent of the governed).
'Go to A_____ B_____, and say to him that "the government" has need of money to meet the expenses of protecting him and his property. If he presumes to say that he has never contracted with us to protect him, and that he wants none of our protection, say to him that that is our business, and not his; that we CHOOSE to protect him, whether he desires us to do so or not; and that we demand pay, too, for protecting him. If he dares to inquire who the individuals are, who have thus taken upon themselves the title of "the government," and who assume to protect him, and demand payment of him, without his having ever made any contract with them, say to him that that, too, is our business, and not his; that we do not CHOOSE to make ourselves INDIVIDUALLY known to him; that we have secretly (by secret ballot) appointed you our agent to give him notice of our demands, and, if he complies with them, to give him, in our name, a receipt that will protect him against any similar demand for the present year. If he refuses to comply, seize and sell enough of his property to pay not only our demands, but all your own expenses and trouble beside. If he resists the seizure of his property, call upon the bystanders to help you (doubtless some of them will prove to be members of our band.) If, in defending his property, he should kill any of our band who are assisting you, capture him at all hazards; charge him (in one of our courts) with murder; convict him, and hang him. If he should call upon his neighbors, or any others who, like him, may be disposed to resist our demands, and they should come in large numbers to his assistance, cry out that they are all rebels and traitors; that "our country" is in danger; call upon the commander of our hired murderers; tell him to quell the rebellion and "save the country," cost what it may. Tell him to kill all who resist, though they should be hundreds of thousands; and thus strike terror into all others similarly disposed. See that the work of murder is thoroughly done; that we may have no further trouble of this kind hereafter. When these traitors shall have thus been taught our strength and our determination, they will be good loyal citizens for many years, and pay their taxes without a why or a wherefore.'
It think Lysander Spooner truly points out the mentality of the State.
When people say that the FED is private, they mean that the money created by that institution ultimately pays for some billionaire's yacht instead of "vital public services". The difference between public-sector and private-sector institutions is largely a false dichotomy fueled by the belief in patriotic government bureaucrats versus greedy capitalist pigs.
Point out that even if the dollar was "public-sector", and every dollar printed went into the U.S. Treasury to be spent by elected representatives, it would still pay for somebody's yacht. Congress does not represent the public interest; it represents whoever writes the biggest checks.
Rather than attempting to distinguish between public and private monies, we should instead distinguish between voluntary and involuntary monies. Only then are we making progress in economic policy.
"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."
Hermes on the day of your death:(But, in Robin Hood cases; I don't really consider it stealing if you had a right to it in the first place. And food, education, and necessary healthcare are rights [life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, governments are instituted among men to secure these rights, deriving their just power from the consent of the governed]).
Obviously an abortion could have saved the world another one of these...
Why is it that you have the right to my money for your happiness? You can pursue happiness all your life, but the fact is, attaining it at the expense of others is still morally wrong...
By the way the reality is Robin Hood was taking back what the rich had stolen, and returned it to its rightful owner, the rich had stolen it IRONICALLY, through taxation....
Socialism and serfdom have much in common, not only do they start with "S"
Hermes on the day of your death:But it is the wealthy elite that I speak of. I know it's a sin to attack our "most productive citizens," (who most just happened to be the descendant/ancestor of someone productive. Im not as suspicious of the Bill Gates new money as I am of the Rockefeller old money) but they are our true leaders. And i see no talk on this site of the influence they have or the detrimental action they employ.
In other words, crony capitalists (not free-market capitalists).
It is the government that enables them to operate in the manner you describe. I know you don't believe this, but check out some of Tom Woods' lectures (A Libertarian Gallop through American History, Monetary Lessons from America's Past, etc.) and see if they don't change your mind.
I think the reason people here don't discuss Rockefeller, et al. very much is that they are the leeches, the hangers-on, that are the symptom having a large state (or any state). It seems more efficient to attack the source. I do agree, however, that they are full partners in the system and have every incentive to perpetuate it with their financial support. Central banks perpetuate the state, and the state perpetuates central banks.
Hermes on the day of your death:Ever wonder why "socialists" think you are just justifying your greed and callousness towards the poor? It is becuase you always defend the rich.
I agree that free-market proponents often allow themselves to be painted this way. They are so used to audiences understanding that socialism is one of the best ways to screw the poor, that they forget that the everyday person is nowhere near that level of economic understanding.
One needn't water down the principles of freedom in order to emphasize how freedom enriches the every person and neuters the present establishment crony capitalists and all the other elite who use the government as a weapon to stay in power and get richer.
Hermes on the day of your death:Or call welfare recipients thieves and leeches.
If anyone on this site actually says this, it's not a very efficient strategy, and not even correct in general. It's actually institutionalized theft by the state and then encouraging people to leech off the system.
Your mother was doing the best she could, and I would never hold it against her for taking advantage of the system - somebody's going to get that money (already stolen from the taxpayers), and it might as well be someone like her who would use it to benefit herself and society rather than squandering it.
But that does not make it a good system.
Still, the poor are being stolen from already (if not by taxes on them, then by property taxes, sales taxes, and taxes on those who produce the goods they need, forcing higher prices, among a long list of detrimental state policies), so it seems odd to call some of them leeches (even if, technically, they are) for trying to get some of the money back from the same system that impoverished them. Blame the system, not those who try to take advantage of it.
Why anarchy fails
Hermes on the day of your death:It is true that the libertarians problem is always resorting to abolish the state..
Um, Hermes? That's Anarchism you're thinking about, not Libertarianism.
Hermes on the day of your death:And food, education, and necessary healthcare are rights
False.