I must admit that I've never understood the clain that two individuals claim the same property under fractional-reserve banking. Will someone explain this to me? One is the debtor, right?
Maxliberty: You can have your money back anytime you want. If for some reason the bank doesnt have your money then you agree to wait up to 60 days for the bank to liquidate assets and pay you. Thats all fractional reserve banking is. The banks always place contingency clauses because they understand that if everyone asks for their money back at once that they will not have it.
You can have your money back anytime you want. If for some reason the bank doesnt have your money then you agree to wait up to 60 days for the bank to liquidate assets and pay you. Thats all fractional reserve banking is. The banks always place contingency clauses because they understand that if everyone asks for their money back at once that they will not have it.
Wrong.
The bank, in this case, only pays the money back through government issued fiat. Not by liquidating its assets.
Maxliberty:That is not fraud. That is what banks currently do now, that is what the contracts actually say not a hypothetical Austrian fantasy. The whole nature of loaning money comes with risk. If you don't want to loan the bank your money then don't. Put your money in a mattress or a safe deposit box or some other storage device.
Thats isn't what the bank is doing, the contract itself even says so.
On another subject, do you have some personal vendetta against Austrians? You've repeatedly mischaracterized the Austrian position on FRB, oddly while using an Austrian to support you.
Max has been told about his strawmen. Repeatedly.
Demand deposits are loans. Ask any lawyer, or bank, or go to any court.
So what is that practical difference between demand and 1 minute deposits? One you can withdraw anytime, anytime on normal hours on a workday, the other you will have to wait one full minute. They are sooooo different.
scineram:Ask any lawyer, or bank, or go to any court.
check your sources maybe?
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
Then ask libertarian lawyers, Volokh, Barnett, Kinsella.
i prefer not to ask lawyers shielded from a freemarket in law production. but rather libertarian philosphers and economics analysts.
rothbard, hoppe, block, de soto ....
nirgrahamUK: i prefer not to ask lawyers shielded from a freemarket in law production. but rather libertarian philosphers and economics analysts. rothbard, hoppe, block, de soto ....
I'd say Kinsella is still a good choice.
scineram:Demand deposits are loans. Ask any lawyer, or bank, or go to any court.
Oh wait--you're not. You lose, Mr. Legal Positivist.
And remember: once upon a time a court said that it was perfectly fine for a person of one skin color to own a person of another skin color. Want to keep going with legal positivism? Yeah, thought not.
Knight_of_BAAWA:Then when you rent a storage unit, you're loaning your stuff to the owner of the storage facility.
Distinct individual items, not fungible monrey, corn or oil in a tank.
scineram:Distinct individual items, not fungible monrey, corn or oil in a tank.
Prove that demand deposits are bailments, go ahead!
scineram:Prove that demand deposits are bailments, go ahead!
What is it you do when you give your money to a bank for demand deposit? You are giving it to a warehouse for safekeeping. The bank, while a central location and thus easily-known to anyone who would want to steal money, is usually a secure place to hold your money. Someone else has done the security planning for you. You pay the bank a maintenance fee and you get to keep your money in a secure location. Much like putting your belongings in storage. The bank cannot loan out your funds unless you place it in a time-deposit situation. Loaning out your money otherwise is no different from the storage facility loaning out your items in your storage locker or garage. None whatsoever. And courts have actually ruled that demand deposits are bailments. Of course, they did so before banking was essentially nationalized in most countries.
Now then: prove that when you pay for a storage garage you are allowing the loaning of your items. Prove it.
Under current law, it isn't, as the banks record chequing account deposits on their asset sheets. However, such practices only exist because of government.
scineram: Knight_of_BAAWA:Then when you rent a storage unit, you're loaning your stuff to the owner of the storage facility. Distinct individual items, not fungible monrey, corn or oil in a tank.
And there are laws against loaning out deposits for any other fungible good (grain warehouse, corn, oil, etc). The fact that money is the only good with this legal privilege should tell you something.
The law is clear for other fungible goods, when you are depositing a fungible good you are not entitled to the exact same good upon withdrawal, but the warehouse is strictly forbidden from lending out your deposit at any time. For any other good but money, this constitutes fraud.
Knight_of_BAAWA:Shifting the burden of proof fallacy.
Nothing logically fallacious.
Knight_of_BAAWA:What is it you do when you give your money to a bank for demand deposit? You are giving it to a warehouse for safekeeping.
Now this a fallacy called question begging. This is what you have to prove. Why the hell on earth would I want to give them cash and pay for it?
Knight_of_BAAWA:The bank, while a central location and thus easily-known to anyone who would want to steal money, is usually a secure place to hold your money.
There is no need for them to hold it, only a fraction. They loan out the rest so I get paid interest.
Knight_of_BAAWA:Someone else has done the security planning for you. You pay the bank a maintenance fee and you get to keep your money in a secure location.
I do not. I would not. I rather earn interest on the deposit.
Knight_of_BAAWA:And courts have actually ruled that demand deposits are bailments. Of course, they did so before banking was essentially nationalized in most countries.
When and where?
Knight_of_BAAWA:Now then: prove that when you pay for a storage garage you are allowing the loaning of your items. Prove it.
I cannot. I don't do that.